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Defeating AFK Cloaking

Author
Zen Dijun
Xoth Inc
#1 - 2012-12-31 12:54:34 UTC
As hard as CCP works to make it so folks can't benefit from paying EVE away from the keyboard, I would like to suggest (and yes, I am sure it's been suggested before) the decloaking pulse.

This module could be ship or POS based and would force the cloaked pilot to tap a button to remain cloaked. If they're AFK, it would expose their ship and prevent the AFK nature of their encampment. If a cloak pilot has to tap a button every few minutes or so to remain cloaked, it would force them to focus on that activity rather than just log an account in and change screens for the rest of the day.

Another idea might be an "AWACS" ship specialized for scanning/decloaking/intel.

Is CCP planning on addressing the AFK nature of camped cloaked ships?


-- Zen
Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
The Gurlstas Associates
#2 - 2012-12-31 13:16:51 UTC
Wow another one, lets see i will try to get this all out with one post so here we go.
first point that will be brought up is AFK cloaking only happend because of local is a flawed intellegence tool, to remove AFK cloaking remove local, at the very least remove the cloaked ship from local.
second a AFK cloaker player has never killed any one.
third a POS module that shuts off cloaking devices would have to affect every module on every ship to be balanced.
I know i am missing something else.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

TehCloud
Guardians of the Dodixie
#3 - 2012-12-31 13:34:18 UTC
Zen Dijun wrote:
As hard as CCP works to make it so folks can't benefit from paying EVE away from the keyboard, [...]


So how exactly do they "benefit" for being AFK and Cloaked? Apart from gaining SP.

My Condor costs less than that module!

Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#4 - 2012-12-31 14:15:46 UTC
Simply amazing.

It seems if you let players have a massive advantage, like free intel, that other players will find a way to counter balance it. That's where "AFK Cloaking" enters this picture.

Let's be clear: A person's willingness to glance at the roster for a chat channel does not equate to earning that intel. It simply means the bar on effort was lowered to discover who was in the same system as you are.
This is not an intel tool. It is a chat channel.

It lists everyone in the system, regardless of their status.
This includes:

Ships docked at an outpost: Go ahead, try to shoot them.
Ships sitting inside the shields of a POS. I am sure they are waiting for your fleet.
And, of course, cloaked vessels.

The FACT the information from local contains elements that are contrary to useful intel should be a warning, but since some avoid this realization there are cloaked pilots who reinforce this message.

By stripping away the ability to combat the flawless intel, you would unbalance the game.

It is not that cloaks should not change, but this stalemate effect is countering the free intel being given out by local.

We have right now, a case of: "I know you are there, but I cannot find you"
(Absolute presence awareness countered by absolute location concealment)

You cannot change one side without the other, and still have balance.

Too much focus on how to remove AFK cloaking. You are addressing a symptom of a problem, not the problem itself.

If you want to remove AFK cloaking's game impact, remove cloaked ships from displaying in local.

When this is done, it becomes reasonable to consider means to hunt cloaked vessels. NOT before this happens.

So long as people in a system magically know cloaked pilots are present with them, cloaked vessels should not be vulnerable to being hunted effectively.

Cloaking will be earned when cloaking awareness is earned. Balance must be maintained.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#5 - 2012-12-31 15:50:39 UTC
Zen Dijun wrote:
As hard as CCP works to make it so folks can't benefit from paying EVE away from the keyboard, I would like to suggest (and yes, I am sure it's been suggested before) the decloaking pulse.

This module could be ship or POS based and would force the cloaked pilot to tap a button to remain cloaked. If they're AFK, it would expose their ship and prevent the AFK nature of their encampment. If a cloak pilot has to tap a button every few minutes or so to remain cloaked, it would force them to focus on that activity rather than just log an account in and change screens for the rest of the day.

Another idea might be an "AWACS" ship specialized for scanning/decloaking/intel.

Is CCP planning on addressing the AFK nature of camped cloaked ships?


-- Zen
How do they benefit?

Also, why didn't you mention the reason for AFKing? The fact that you can AFK without a cloak and cause the same psychological effects, should speak volumes. Shouldn't it?

Your corp seems to have more than one pilot, seemingly unable to cope with life in 0.0. Maybe it's time to move back to empire?

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2012-12-31 16:17:07 UTC
Remove local, then AFK cloaking becomes pointless, one might as well log out at that point.

AFK cloaking "defeated" - problem solved.
Akrasjel Lanate
Lanate Industries
#7 - 2012-12-31 16:32:24 UTC
No

CEO of Lanate Industries

Citizen of Solitude

DSpite Culhach
#8 - 2012-12-31 18:13:51 UTC
The annoyance I've seen from people stems not from the fact they have a cloaked ship in system, but by the fact the player is playing tennis 30 km away, THAT level of AFK seems to annoy them.

I'm AFK a lot, but I'm in the room, or in the bathroom. I once had to really go pee while I was warp scrammed in mission, and while I did look around for convenient containers, I just went to the damn bathroom.

... if you put something in place that requires player "interaction" to stay cloaked, wont people just use some automated program to cause some "input noise" anyway?

I apparently have no idea what I'm doing.

Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#9 - 2012-12-31 20:22:41 UTC
DSpite Culhach wrote:
The annoyance I've seen from people stems not from the fact they have a cloaked ship in system, but by the fact the player is playing tennis 30 km away, THAT level of AFK seems to annoy them.

I'm AFK a lot, but I'm in the room, or in the bathroom. I once had to really go pee while I was warp scrammed in mission, and while I did look around for convenient containers, I just went to the damn bathroom.

... if you put something in place that requires player "interaction" to stay cloaked, wont people just use some automated program to cause some "input noise" anyway?

Maybe they would. Noone can deny many players are very creative.

The unreasonable request of this whole affair, however, is the one asking to make it necessary.

They are asking, effectively, to have other players lose the ability to counter the flawless intel provided by local.

Now, just to be plain about the sandbox, if balance is not provided on one level, the players will force feed it on another.
AFK Cloaking is the COUNTER to the instant free intel provided by local chat.

It is used, almost exclusively, as a tool of psych warfare against groups of pilots who abuse local by using it to avoid conflict in a region of the game based around requiring effort to achieve this.

To put it another way, these local users are mining and ratting, but not defending. Instead of defending, they are using local to avoid this need.
This is a VERY effective tactic, even with a few AFK Cloaking pilots, and it pushes the bar of gameplay down for everyone who would compete against these PvE players. You either match their play style, or they make more ISK by exploiting the difference.

Now, if you want to test to see if this style is risk averse, consider what happens when risk enters the system.
If the answer is something besides group together to fight, maybe that bar needs to be raised.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#10 - 2012-12-31 20:40:49 UTC
Zen Dijun wrote:
As hard as CCP works to make it so folks can't benefit from paying EVE away from the keyboard, I would like to suggest (and yes, I am sure it's been suggested before) the decloaking pulse.

This module could be ship or POS based and would force the cloaked pilot to tap a button to remain cloaked. If they're AFK, it would expose their ship and prevent the AFK nature of their encampment. If a cloak pilot has to tap a button every few minutes or so to remain cloaked, it would force them to focus on that activity rather than just log an account in and change screens for the rest of the day.

Another idea might be an "AWACS" ship specialized for scanning/decloaking/intel.

Is CCP planning on addressing the AFK nature of camped cloaked ships?


-- Zen




Sure. But I get an undocking/kickout pulse to use. I come roaming through your system, your guys all dock up, I fire it up and it force undocks everyone in the station, and kicks everyone out of their POSes.

Can't have people being AFK now, can we.
Seranova Farreach
Biomass Negative
#11 - 2012-12-31 20:54:53 UTC
AFK cloakers.. keeping afker PVE site campers paranoid since forever :P

[u]___________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg[/u]

Seranova Farreach
Biomass Negative
#12 - 2012-12-31 20:55:54 UTC
Verity Sovereign wrote:
Remove local, then AFK cloaking becomes pointless, one might as well log out at that point.

AFK cloaking "defeated" - problem solved.


i like this idea.. removeing local is an instand +1 from me.

[u]___________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg[/u]

Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#13 - 2012-12-31 21:23:27 UTC
+1 for remove local

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#14 - 2012-12-31 21:25:20 UTC
Why does AFK cloaking need to be defeated? Your post doesn't explain this.
Also, how do you propose to do it so that non-AFK cloaking remains untouched? Your idea doesn't address this — quite the opposite, they all seem to screw over normal cloakers as much as anyone.

So…
Zen Dijun wrote:
Is CCP planning on addressing the AFK nature of camped cloaked ships?
…no, why would they address something that isn't a problem?
Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
#15 - 2012-12-31 22:16:34 UTC
Best suggestion i've seen (it wasn't here): Remove cloaked ships from local. They still get their intel, and you know for sure that if someone is in local then they are a threat.
Ruse Lander
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2012-12-31 23:48:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Ruse Lander

  • Local Chat is a flawed intel asset. It only states the names of the people currently in the system.
  • AFK Cloaking is a psychological tool used to force people to dock or log off.

    • 1) Solutions have included removing them from the Local Chat list, which actually makes cloak ganking become a much more viable tactic.
      2) Cloaking requiring a pilot to interact with the game to maintain their cloak, which leads to some sort of macro system being used violating the EULA.
      3) Making cloaked ships able to be scanned down, which defeats the purpose of the cloaking module, or does it?


Making cloaked ships able to be scanned down (with considerable consideration to the difficulty that should be imposed upon this new ability) seems like the best solution in my estimation.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#17 - 2012-12-31 23:56:10 UTC
Ruse Lander wrote:

  • Local Chat is a flawed intel asset. It only states the names of the people currently in the system.
  • AFK Cloaking is a psychological tool used to force people to dock or log off.

    • 1) Solutions have included removing them from the Local Chat list, which actually makes cloak ganking become a much more viable tactic.
      2) Cloaking requiring a pilot to interact with the game to maintain their cloak, which leads to some sort of macro system being used violating the EULA.
      3) Making cloaked ships able to be scanned down, which defeats the purpose of the cloaking module, or does it?


Making cloaked ships able to be scanned down (with considerable consideration to the difficulty that should be imposed upon this new ability) seems like the best solution in my estimation.


1. why shouldnt cloaked ganking be a viable tactic?

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Michael Loney
Skullspace Industries
#18 - 2013-01-01 02:36:28 UTC
I would imagine that when the cloaker is cloak and remove from local, they also cannot see local. To get the Intel they want / need it will take lots of warping around and looking.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#19 - 2013-01-01 02:46:33 UTC
Ruse Lander wrote:

  • Local Chat is a flawed intel asset. It only states the names of the people currently in the system.
  • AFK Cloaking is a psychological tool used to force people to dock or log off.

    • 1) Solutions have included removing them from the Local Chat list, which actually makes cloak ganking become a much more viable tactic.
      2) Cloaking requiring a pilot to interact with the game to maintain their cloak, which leads to some sort of macro system being used violating the EULA.
      3) Making cloaked ships able to be scanned down, which defeats the purpose of the cloaking module, or does it?


Making cloaked ships able to be scanned down (with considerable consideration to the difficulty that should be imposed upon this new ability) seems like the best solution in my estimation.

It is widely anticipated that any removal of cloaked vessels from local chat, removing the free warning of the presence of cloaked vessels completely, would include a means to hunt them.

In other words, you can only have number 3 if the cloaked vessels can have number 1.

Diminishing cloaked gameplay further is not balanced, no matter how many threads appear from the risk averse who feel entitled to null sec rewards with a high sec attitude.

Remember: Local chat is not intel simply because you choose to use it as such. That is your problem.
Cloaked vessels can never hurt you, so long as they are cloaked.

If you concede the free warnings, they will concede a balanced means to hunt them.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#20 - 2013-01-01 02:53:27 UTC
Michael Loney wrote:
I would imagine that when the cloaker is cloak and remove from local, they also cannot see local. To get the Intel they want / need it will take lots of warping around and looking.

Very likely, as has been stated in other threads.

I have gone so far as to suggest that cloaked vessels, docked vessels, and any vessel in a POS protected by shields, should be removed from local.
I also specified they should not be able to see local either, using a completely delayed version of local chat with no pilot roster visible.

This would allow local as an intel tool, but only showing vessels that could be targeted and PvP available.

AFK Cloaking would not be possible. They would have to work harder for intel, but in exchange they would be harder to find.
A means to hunt them, under these conditions, is widely considered balanced as well.

Proper effort for defense finally worth making, and excuses no longer worth bothering with.
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