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Null is Broken, Hisec working as intended.

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Frying Doom
#321 - 2012-12-30 09:33:52 UTC
SmilingVagrant wrote:
They made it so you didn't have to pack into a few systems in eve to get the quality agents. No wait that was a buff.

That very much depends on your definition

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#322 - 2012-12-30 09:38:48 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
SmilingVagrant wrote:
They made it so you didn't have to pack into a few systems in eve to get the quality agents. No wait that was a buff.

That very much depends on your definition


Well yes, you could define it as a huge buff or an enormous buff. Or even a great buff. So many definitions!

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Frying Doom
#323 - 2012-12-30 09:44:43 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
SmilingVagrant wrote:
They made it so you didn't have to pack into a few systems in eve to get the quality agents. No wait that was a buff.

That very much depends on your definition


Well yes, you could define it as a huge buff or an enormous buff. Or even a great buff. So many definitions!

Or in the case of people with high standings the amounts went down as did the LP. so no not a buff in all cases.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#324 - 2012-12-30 12:10:16 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
destiny2 wrote:
If their going to nerf anything nerf null get rid of the tech moons, make it so people actually have to work for their isk


How much "work" did hi-sec players put in to get all those invulnerable stations which they can't be locked out of?

You don't get to complain about tech moons in null until stations in hi-sec cost you 20 bill a pop.


I'd buy 3 of those stations today!


Really? OK contact Shirin in game, he'll be delighted to discuss terms.


He can't sell me 3 hi sec stations for 20B a pop. I'd love to set them names and other things.

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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#325 - 2012-12-30 12:11:53 UTC
SmilingVagrant wrote:
They made it so you didn't have to pack into a few systems in eve to get the quality agents. No wait that was a buff.


... which I'd revert in a second.

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Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#326 - 2012-12-30 12:22:28 UTC
heh, the "everyone wins" welfare philosophy is still dominant on these forums

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#327 - 2012-12-30 12:25:16 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
"Let's quickly make hi sec crap and take 10 years to improve null sec by 1 ounce". Because this is what'll happen.

Sound business and far sight!

Under my proposal, hisec will always have the manufacturing capacity to be able to replenish its own losses. That's more then what can be said about nullsec at present. Are you inferring that highseccers are so unable to adapt that the presence of competitive forces and scarcity far, far weaker then what nullseccers have been dealing with for a decade will make them quit in droves?


No, I am inferring that nerfing hi sec has not worked ever so far (L4 missions nerfed about 7 times since 2009) .


Please list those 7 nerfs.


M0 removal off large wrecks
Across the board reduction of bounties then later
Meta 0 removal off all wrecks => The first 3 are due to Kerfira + me, feel free to EvE search 2010 mission forum posts.
Removal of L5 missions from hi sec
Reduction in numbers and replacement of medium end roids with veldspar and scordite,
Removal of drone goo, now drone missions are even worse payout AND became a big ISK faucet. Now, that nerf was really due but it's still a nerf.
Not really a nerf but a screwup: buffing hi sec agents to Q20 has been a bad buff to ISK faucet and a nerf to LP. Dodixie and surroundings lost plenty. SOE combat agent gone, another bad decision to put once again stuff in already too good Caldari space.
then later LP indirect nerf through FW (that expecially hits hi sec L4)

These are the first that come to my mind, there have been probably others.

Sleepers AI drones are also a general PvE nerf that expecially impacts content not designed for such AI, mainly missions, this includes L4 hi sec missions as the CCP indicated target (AFK drone dominix).

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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#328 - 2012-12-30 12:27:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Malcanis wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
SmilingVagrant wrote:
They made it so you didn't have to pack into a few systems in eve to get the quality agents. No wait that was a buff.

That very much depends on your definition


Well yes, you could define it as a huge buff or an enormous buff. Or even a great buff. So many definitions!


Or you could define it as an unwarranted sh!t decision by CCP, expecially those who did not roll Caldari.

They incremented the totally unneeded ISK faucet while causing a flood of LP (later worsened for some items by FW) making player generated "content" (trading the LP) less important and NPC faucet more important.

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Zaraz Zaraz
Zontik Paraphernalia Inc
#329 - 2012-12-30 13:23:10 UTC
Andski wrote:
heh, the "everyone wins" welfare philosophy is still dominant on these forums


Totally contrary to the spirit of Eve which is "everyone loses. Except CCP."
Hestia Mar
Calmaretto
#330 - 2012-12-30 13:32:44 UTC
Just get rid of hi-sec, lo-sec, null; put in place an effective concord across random systems, and make entry points into systems random so that entry gates can't be camped (although exit gates can).

Simples!
Randolph Rothstein
whatever corp.
#331 - 2012-12-30 13:36:22 UTC
Andski wrote:
heh, the "everyone wins" welfare philosophy is still dominant on these forums


and what is wrong with that?
Dave stark
#332 - 2012-12-30 13:49:21 UTC
Randolph Rothstein wrote:
Andski wrote:
heh, the "everyone wins" welfare philosophy is still dominant on these forums


and what is wrong with that?


because the very definition of winner means not every one can be a winner.
Randolph Rothstein
whatever corp.
#333 - 2012-12-30 13:51:38 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
Randolph Rothstein wrote:
Andski wrote:
heh, the "everyone wins" welfare philosophy is still dominant on these forums


and what is wrong with that?


because the very definition of winner means not every one can be a winner.


do you think this is the reason why they are so passive agressive?
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#334 - 2012-12-30 14:59:27 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
destiny2 wrote:
If their going to nerf anything nerf null get rid of the tech moons, make it so people actually have to work for their isk


How much "work" did hi-sec players put in to get all those invulnerable stations which they can't be locked out of?

You don't get to complain about tech moons in null until stations in hi-sec cost you 20 bill a pop.


I'd buy 3 of those stations today!


Really? OK contact Shirin in game, he'll be delighted to discuss terms.


He can't sell me 3 hi sec stations for 20B a pop. I'd love to set them names and other things.


Oh, that's a shame. Still, have you considered that if you buy now and CCP buff outposts, the value of your investment will rise enormously?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#335 - 2012-12-30 15:02:11 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
SmilingVagrant wrote:
They made it so you didn't have to pack into a few systems in eve to get the quality agents. No wait that was a buff.

That very much depends on your definition


Well yes, you could define it as a huge buff or an enormous buff. Or even a great buff. So many definitions!


Or you could define it as an unwarranted sh!t decision by CCP, expecially those who did not roll Caldari.

They incremented the totally unneeded ISK faucet while causing a flood of LP (later worsened for some items by FW) making player generated "content" (trading the LP) less important and NPC faucet more important.


Are missions an ISK faucet? They're certainly a wealth faucet, but LP intrinisically a massive ISK sink.

Still, it's going to be hard for you to convince me that a change to missioning that by your own account massively increased the amount of wealth generated by missioning was a "nerf".

If that's your idea of a "nerf" then we in 0.0 could do with a few "nerfs" like that, please.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#336 - 2012-12-30 18:59:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Malcanis wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
SmilingVagrant wrote:
They made it so you didn't have to pack into a few systems in eve to get the quality agents. No wait that was a buff.

That very much depends on your definition


Well yes, you could define it as a huge buff or an enormous buff. Or even a great buff. So many definitions!


Or you could define it as an unwarranted sh!t decision by CCP, expecially those who did not roll Caldari.

They incremented the totally unneeded ISK faucet while causing a flood of LP (later worsened for some items by FW) making player generated "content" (trading the LP) less important and NPC faucet more important.


Are missions an ISK faucet? They're certainly a wealth faucet, but LP intrinisically a massive ISK sink.

Still, it's going to be hard for you to convince me that a change to missioning that by your own account massively increased the amount of wealth generated by missioning was a "nerf".

If that's your idea of a "nerf" then we in 0.0 could do with a few "nerfs" like that, please.


Before the LP dilution and FW competition, a smart missioneer could make a VERY nice side income. The worst module I'd sell would yield me 54M. SOE launchers yielded 45M but were coming hard and fast due to the moderate LP requirements.
Some Amarr agents yielded 3300 ISK per LP.
Placing yourself in a decent location would always get you 2-3 agents to use, even in Minmatar space where low sec is widespread.

A buff from Q18 to Q20 gave a very moderate ISK increase while diluting LP. The FW competition affected LP as well. Net result is a bad change for the game (ISK faucet increase, player made content decrease) and a nerf on wealth for all the missioneers who knew to run the 0.5 sec Q18 agents, for decent corps yielding good ISK / LP.

It's a buff for the terribles who ran brainless navy missions in 0.7 sec. But those are those who made 30M per hour (now I don't know), they are self nerfed just for existing.

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Skydell
Bad Girl Posse
#337 - 2012-12-30 19:11:39 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:


Before the LP dilution and FW competition, a smart missioneer could make a VERY nice side income. The worst module I'd sell would yield me 54M. SOE launchers yielded 45M but were coming hard and fast due to the moderate LP requirements.
Some Amarr agents yielded 3300 ISK per LP.
Placing yourself in a decent location would always get you 2-3 agents to use, even in Minmatar space where low sec is widespread.

A buff from Q18 to Q20 gave a very moderate ISK increase while diluting LP. The FW competition affected LP as well. Net result is a bad change for the game (ISK faucet increase, player made content decrease) and a nerf on wealth for all the missioneers who knew to run the 0.5 sec Q18 agents, for decent corps yielding good ISK / LP.

It's a buff for the terribles who ran brainless navy missions in 0.7 sec.


That was a very long time ago. Very much outdated now. Yet it is still the backbone of most nerf high sec arguments. The Nerf it and buff it shell game goes on but we the players beat CCP many times already. Every time they nerf, we beat them. Every time they buff, we beat them. We out played their game. Considering the last time EVE saw real content additions, I'd say they got last laugh though because we keep grinding it over.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#338 - 2012-12-30 19:16:57 UTC
Skydell wrote:

That was a very long time ago. Very much outdated now. Yet it is still the backbone of most nerf high sec arguments. The Nerf it and buff it shell game goes on but we the players beat CCP many times already. Every time they nerf, we beat them. Every time they buff, we beat them. We out played their game. Considering the last time EVE saw real content additions, I'd say they got last laugh though because we keep grinding it over.


Well, "long time" for a slow developing game like EvE with stuff like COSMOS unchanged since... ever is not a fundamental factor. Plus it happened more or less in the timeline I posted above so it's around 2 years ago which is within my 3 year window I considered for listing nerfs and bad changes. (Window I chose because it's when I started the game).

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Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#339 - 2012-12-30 19:58:43 UTC
Randolph Rothstein wrote:
Andski wrote:
heh, the "everyone wins" welfare philosophy is still dominant on these forums


and what is wrong with that?


this is not the terrible welfare MMO you came from, for instance

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Garreth Vlox
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#340 - 2012-12-30 22:40:00 UTC
Peter Raptor wrote:
Some Rando wrote:
Peter Raptor wrote:
If CCP nerfs hisec, what have the hisec dwellers/industrialists got left

A lot of other space to do business in. High-sec should be left to new players and the little coddled children who can't handle conflict in a PvP game.


As I said elsewhere , many people play EVE to relax, manufacture stuff, hang out with friends, not to have an FC yelling at them for allegedly making the team lose a PVP match. If forced to PVP, many would rather leave.



No one said they have to PVP, what they are saying is if you aren't going to work for it you shouldn't get free access to the best processing, research facilites and production in the game for almost no cost and next to no risk.

The LULZ Boat.