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I Won't Build "Your Empire"
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Malphilos
State War Academy
Caldari State
#141 - 2012-12-29 02:06:03 UTC
Proletariat Tingtango wrote:
I just imagine an army of these guys,...


You understand that's got no connection to reality, right?
Lovely Dumplings
My Little Pony Appreciation Corporation
#142 - 2012-12-29 02:23:45 UTC
It's really, in the end, massive differences in the "way" people play EVE. I'll be picking on Goons some, but they make a good example.

A new Goon comes into game, he or she is instantly told where to go. They jump into 0.0 with nary a care, smiles on their faces and shiptoasting on their minds. Popped ships get replaced, experienced FCs go over losses, everyone has a great time, newbie becomes a valued member of EVE life. It doesn't "feel" like empire building to the noob, because he's made welcome from day one, and just has fun.

Now, take your non-Goon newbie. If they struggle through the tutorial and stay, they get "Rookie Chat", which will tell you in no uncertain terms that Low/Null is awful, you'll get popped instantly, never go there. Here, do some mining. Or run missions! You need at least 500million SP to even be useful! They might join one of the 500 million "corps" recruiting for numbers, who never speak, plan ops, or do anything. Newbie quits, and another voice contributes to "LOL EVE is spreadsheets in space it sucks there's nothing to do."

Some of those noobs manage to carve out a spot in EVE being totally solo, and from them, we have the "highsec industrialist" multiboxers, from which "I won't build your Empire!" comes out of.

I don't know a good way to solve the problem. If you nerf high, it's only going to slow down the built in risk averse "I'm never going to null" highseccers. Nerf enough, they'll quit. Buffing null, which will help nullsec, isn't going to attract those people. If there were an alliance that was devoted to all new players in null, in the same way Goons are to their own, it might bring something back to EVE. I don't see that happening anytime soon.

www.minerbumping.com
Fal Dara
Vortex Command Corporation
The Divine Warriors
#143 - 2012-12-29 02:42:08 UTC
OP has not a single point in his favor... which is funny...

But.. why do i highsec?

I started playing in 2004, and have been here ever since, asside from short breaks. Of that time, i spent about a year and a half in null... as an indy player. It was MISERABLE. After being a part of that, i and my corp tried renting--again, MISERABLE.

i could list the 100 reasons why it was mierable, but people with the mindset like OP wouldnt understand a one of them.

Why i live in empire:

I can long on any time i want, and go make isk with little risk (short of getting ganked on the undock or something).
I can group with my NPC corpies to go do something, or help them. No time limits, no requierments or expectations.
I can go mining, without having to give X% or 100% to some corp/alliance project i dont care one iota about.
I can go mining, and not be told mining is banned for 30 days because of some pvp op. attendence in which is mandatory.
i can go ratting (yeah right, like i do), without 100% taxes dropped on us because of an op. attendence in which is mandatory.
I dont have to fuel pos's, with ice i have to mine while mining is banned--or haul it in with a JF from highsec.
A neutral in the system doesnt stop me from doing ANYthing, unless i have friends--who are all prolly on an op i missed.
I live in alaska. My time zone fits with NO ONE. ever.
i gladly pay 11% more taxes so i dont have to worry about war. i would pay 100% if i had to. most isk NPC corpies make is NOT effected by taxes.
I am not opposed to PvP--it's just that it's a waste of time for some one who could care less about owning space.
I enjoy my implants.
I live in alaska--there is NO WAY, ever, that i wont get podded in PvP. my 'lag/ping' is about 2 seconds.
I dont like listening to others, when they have stupid ideas AND more power than me. they dont listen to sense. i cant make them.
I dont share my isk. I make it, i keep it. as an indy toon in 0.0--all my profit making is taken, one way or another, by 'freetards'

freetard--"you mined it, it's free" ... "those datacores are free, used my RP" ... "if we make you use all your manufacture slots, we dont have to pay you, it's free" (hey, tard, i could be using those for PROFIT).

i dont know, i'm probably missing important things...

mostly it's that my npc corp and its people are stress free (asside from when one of you player corps sucks a newby up week-1 and then boots them in, compleatly ignorant of everything). I can do anything i want, when i want, and am not forced to participate in anything i could care less about. I am not forced to travel. I have TONS of people to talk to... that dont want me to do things (No, Oi, you cannot have a battlecruiser) ... i get to keep my isk (what little there is of it) and my implants. if i want to pvp, i can, it's just more difficult.

mostly i sit in my hangar and spin a ship while i chat. many ships. many beautiful and expensive ships.... does it make u mad that my astarte's slow slots cost more than your entire carrier+fit?... lols. i have 3. legions too--bought one, deadspace/faction fit it, just to look at it. it's beautiful. and useless... because i own it.

i have 130m sp's, and it's all wasted.

how's that make you feel?! :D

... hmm, slipped into trolling there. oops.
Wo nko
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#144 - 2012-12-29 02:47:20 UTC
down with goons/test/pl
masternerdguy
Doomheim
#145 - 2012-12-29 02:47:30 UTC
Fal Dara wrote:
OP has not a single point in his favor... which is funny...

But.. why do i highsec?

I started playing in 2004, and have been here ever since, asside from short breaks. Of that time, i spent about a year and a half in null... as an indy player. It was MISERABLE. After being a part of that, i and my corp tried renting--again, MISERABLE.

i could list the 100 reasons why it was mierable, but people with the mindset like OP wouldnt understand a one of them.

Why i live in empire:

I can long on any time i want, and go make isk with little risk (short of getting ganked on the undock or something).
I can group with my NPC corpies to go do something, or help them. No time limits, no requierments or expectations.
I can go mining, without having to give X% or 100% to some corp/alliance project i dont care one iota about.
I can go mining, and not be told mining is banned for 30 days because of some pvp op. attendence in which is mandatory.
i can go ratting (yeah right, like i do), without 100% taxes dropped on us because of an op. attendence in which is mandatory.
I dont have to fuel pos's, with ice i have to mine while mining is banned--or haul it in with a JF from highsec.
A neutral in the system doesnt stop me from doing ANYthing, unless i have friends--who are all prolly on an op i missed.
I live in alaska. My time zone fits with NO ONE. ever.
i gladly pay 11% more taxes so i dont have to worry about war. i would pay 100% if i had to. most isk NPC corpies make is NOT effected by taxes.
I am not opposed to PvP--it's just that it's a waste of time for some one who could care less about owning space.
I enjoy my implants.
I live in alaska--there is NO WAY, ever, that i wont get podded in PvP. my 'lag/ping' is about 2 seconds.
I dont like listening to others, when they have stupid ideas AND more power than me. they dont listen to sense. i cant make them.
I dont share my isk. I make it, i keep it. as an indy toon in 0.0--all my profit making is taken, one way or another, by 'freetards'

freetard--"you mined it, it's free" ... "those datacores are free, used my RP" ... "if we make you use all your manufacture slots, we dont have to pay you, it's free" (hey, tard, i could be using those for PROFIT).

i dont know, i'm probably missing important things...

mostly it's that my npc corp and its people are stress free (asside from when one of you player corps sucks a newby up week-1 and then boots them in, compleatly ignorant of everything). I can do anything i want, when i want, and am not forced to participate in anything i could care less about. I am not forced to travel. I have TONS of people to talk to... that dont want me to do things (No, Oi, you cannot have a battlecruiser) ... i get to keep my isk (what little there is of it) and my implants. if i want to pvp, i can, it's just more difficult.

mostly i sit in my hangar and spin a ship while i chat. many ships. many beautiful and expensive ships.... does it make u mad that my astarte's slow slots cost more than your entire carrier+fit?... lols. i have 3. legions too--bought one, deadspace/faction fit it, just to look at it. it's beautiful. and useless... because i own it.

i have 130m sp's, and it's all wasted.

how's that make you feel?! :D

... hmm, slipped into trolling there. oops.


This is kind of neat, compare to this post.

Proletariat Tingtango wrote:
"I won't build your empire" as an ethos really just drives home the stereotype of a shut-in libertarian comp-sci dropout as the stereotypical Eve nerd. Refusal to cooperate, delusions of grandeur, un-deserved self importance.

I just imagine an army of these guys, who multibox mining armadas and think they're entitled to the same things a group of like-minded, cooperative people can achieve, and who could probably influence this game for the worse if they could unify, but their artificially bloated egos prevent that. They all want to be The Guy so they sit in their chat rooms, jabber, mumble, etc., and post on eve-o and just whinge about how the game should cater specifically to this tragic breed of isolationist shut-in who rationalizes their loneliness and unlikability by loudly proclaiming their liberty and refusal to "Build Your Empire".

Take a bow guys.


I can painstakingly list the points if you like.

Things are only impossible until they are not.
Proletariat Tingtango
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#146 - 2012-12-29 03:12:14 UTC
Malphilos wrote:
Proletariat Tingtango wrote:
I just imagine an army of these guys,...


You understand that's got no connection to reality, right?

no you
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#147 - 2012-12-29 03:23:08 UTC
Lovely Dumplings wrote:
It's really, in the end, massive differences in the "way" people play EVE. I'll be picking on Goons some, but they make a good example.

A new Goon comes into game, he or she is instantly told where to go. They jump into 0.0 with nary a care, smiles on their faces and shiptoasting on their minds. Popped ships get replaced, experienced FCs go over losses, everyone has a great time, newbie becomes a valued member of EVE life. It doesn't "feel" like empire building to the noob, because he's made welcome from day one, and just has fun.

This is called picking on people?

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#148 - 2012-12-29 03:28:19 UTC  |  Edited by: SmilingVagrant
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
SmilingVagrant wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
SmilingVagrant wrote:
1. On deafness: We actually have programs for that. For our alliance during the big ops there is usually a hearing impaired channel where the FC gets orders relayed for him. Again if you get big enough you have to deal with issues like this. That's how we deal with it.

2. I have nothing to say here really, I'm more interested in boosting null than nerfing high.

3. I don't do CTA work, the kind of warfare I engage in can be done at any time, mainly because I'm living balls deep in someone elses space. CTA's are for PVP'ers who prefer to "Live at home". From my staging system it's about 30 jumps home, and three carrier jumps. After that I'm generally about 10-20 jumps into someone elses space. I can simply login, get a few kills with my gang, log out whenever I want.

Three carrier jumps, sounds like we need some ~nerf power projection~ in this thread.


I feel like a peasant when I have to use gates in enemy space. It's doubly insulting because we made a more accurate jump bridge map than their internally used one.



Lol


Believe it or not it isn't a joke. Part of what I'm doing right now is proving these whining nitwits that claim the jumpbridge kills any small gang/gank work in nullsec wrong.

Take this fellow here: http://topgoon.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15673360

We not only killed him, we killed him ON the jumpbridge itself. Drive by shooting.

Once you have a competent map, pair that up with Dotlan's hourly jumps filter and suddenly enemy space becomes a playground of kills.
masternerdguy
Doomheim
#149 - 2012-12-29 03:36:25 UTC
My previous alliance NSE went to Fountain to harass TEST for a few days with small gangs, covops, and black ops tactics and we killed lots of TEST on their own Jump Bridge Points.

We have it on video I think.

Things are only impossible until they are not.
Lovely Dumplings
My Little Pony Appreciation Corporation
#150 - 2012-12-29 03:42:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Lovely Dumplings
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Lovely Dumplings wrote:
It's really, in the end, massive differences in the "way" people play EVE. I'll be picking on Goons some, but they make a good example.

A new Goon comes into game, he or she is instantly told where to go. They jump into 0.0 with nary a care, smiles on their faces and shiptoasting on their minds. Popped ships get replaced, experienced FCs go over losses, everyone has a great time, newbie becomes a valued member of EVE life. It doesn't "feel" like empire building to the noob, because he's made welcome from day one, and just has fun.

This is called picking on people?


EVE Law. You aren't allowed to say anything good about Goons, if you aren't a Goon. It's in the Highsec Carebear Charter, right after you swear to never activate your highs on other characters.

Just to add to the thought, I was chilling in rookiechat watching the spam fly by. A noobster asked if there was anything other than mining to do in EVE, and I saw "Nope, just mine till you get skills to run missions". This offended me to the core, so I explained how to pull a simple protection racket using alts, that any fresh off the bus could accomplish. Noobchat exploded with "That's wrong don't do it" "You'll get banned!" "Stop telling people to break the rules!"

With that kind of welcome to EVE, it's no wonder people get so spazzed over bumping, ganking, and actual PVP.

www.minerbumping.com
dexington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#151 - 2012-12-29 03:42:57 UTC
Lovely Dumplings wrote:
A new Goon comes into game, he or she is instantly told where to go. They jump into 0.0 with nary a care, smiles on their faces and shiptoasting on their minds. Popped ships get replaced, experienced FCs go over losses, everyone has a great time, newbie becomes a valued member of EVE life. It doesn't "feel" like empire building to the noob, because he's made welcome from day one, and just has fun.

Now, take your non-Goon newbie. If they struggle through the tutorial and stay, they get "Rookie Chat", which will tell you in no uncertain terms that Low/Null is awful, you'll get popped instantly, never go there. Here, do some mining. Or run missions! You need at least 500million SP to even be useful! They might join one of the 500 million "corps" recruiting for numbers, who never speak, plan ops, or do anything. Newbie quits, and another voice contributes to "LOL EVE is spreadsheets in space it sucks there's nothing to do."


You are right about finding someone to hold you hand i very important, when you start playing eve. You are painting a very black and white picture saying that it can only happen with a null corp/alliance, many players have has a really good time in hi-sec corps like eve uni and rvb. I also think you are painting a overly positive picture of null sec scenario. A new player can also end up in a corp at war with a power block, and get his **** pushed in on a daily basis until he and his corp/alliance is forced to flee to hi-sec.

I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous.
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#152 - 2012-12-29 03:50:02 UTC
masternerdguy wrote:
In many of the defensive cries from hi seccers attempting to justify that hi sec is balanced I've been seeing a recurring theme: "I won't go to nullsec because I don't want to help build your empire. I want to build one with my RL friends."

"I won't go to nullsec because I don't want to help build your empire. I want to build one with my RL friends."

This is the epitome of the fundamental misunderstanding hi seccers have about the nature of this game. It is based on 3 incorrect assumptions.


  1. I Am Special - Nobody is special. Everyone is a worthless until proven otherwise. Your value is solely what you bring to the community.
  2. EVE is Relaxing - EVE has never been relaxing. It has been about hard work and commitment. You might have fun, but it will take a lot of work to get there.
  3. EVE is About Small Gang / Solo - EVE has never been balanced around small gang or solo, and this has never been pushed by any of the advertising. In fact the opposite is pushed.


So what do you resort to? You resort to blaming the evil nullseccers for all your problems and talking about how unfair it is that you might lose, or that setting up your 5 man alliance in the middle of Deklein won't work, or that you got blobbed. Then when that doesn't work you cry about how important it is to be a "casual gamer".

The definition of casual gamer seems to be pretty flexible these days. I didn't know grinding missions or ice mining for 14 hours a day was casual.

Anyway, the nerf will happen. Summer is coming.


Right, then:

Take the Goon-wanger out of your mouth, and try that again please.

Next!


Star Wars: the Old Republic may not be EVE. But I'll take the sound of dual blaster-pistols over "NURVV CLAOKING NAOW!!!11oneone!!" any day of the week.
Fal Dara
Vortex Command Corporation
The Divine Warriors
#153 - 2012-12-29 03:53:53 UTC
masternerdguy wrote:
Proletariat Tingtango wrote:
"I won't build your empire" as an ethos really just drives home the stereotype of a shut-in libertarian comp-sci dropout as the stereotypical Eve nerd. Refusal to cooperate, delusions of grandeur, un-deserved self importance.

I just imagine an army of these guys, who multibox mining armadas and think they're entitled to the same things a group of like-minded, cooperative people can achieve, and who could probably influence this game for the worse if they could unify, but their artificially bloated egos prevent that. They all want to be The Guy so they sit in their chat rooms, jabber, mumble, etc., and post on eve-o and just whinge about how the game should cater specifically to this tragic breed of isolationist shut-in who rationalizes their loneliness and unlikability by loudly proclaiming their liberty and refusal to "Build Your Empire".

Take a bow guys.


I can painstakingly list the points if you like.


1. i dont multibox--and if i did, it wouldnt be mining.
2. 'entitled to' suggests i cant achieve them--other than a titan, i have. no entitlement felt or needed. no help either.
3. "the guy" not even close. This is a handful of posts i've made in the last 8 years. no one even knows me.
3a. I dont recall having ever 'whinge'd about being catered to. the OP on the other hand ... is nothing but a whinge.
4. the 'bloated ego' thing ... other than the fact that i own things most 0.0 people dont, and never will (because losing ships is spendy, and turns them into hobos), i dont see it. See me in my corp chat some time--i make no ilusions about knowing everything--infact, i'd bet i ask the most questions there on any given day. There's no 'ego' in that sense.
....4a ... and the reason you felt the 'ego' vibe, is becuase i was trollin for some idiot to reply...

5---but do go on. show me some of those points of yours. i need the lols.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#154 - 2012-12-29 03:54:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
Lovely Dumplings wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Lovely Dumplings wrote:
It's really, in the end, massive differences in the "way" people play EVE. I'll be picking on Goons some, but they make a good example.

A new Goon comes into game, he or she is instantly told where to go. They jump into 0.0 with nary a care, smiles on their faces and shiptoasting on their minds. Popped ships get replaced, experienced FCs go over losses, everyone has a great time, newbie becomes a valued member of EVE life. It doesn't "feel" like empire building to the noob, because he's made welcome from day one, and just has fun.

This is called picking on people?


EVE Law. You aren't allowed to say anything good about Goons, if you aren't a Goon. It's in the Highsec Carebear Charter, right after you swear to never activate your highs on other characters.

Just to add to the thought, I was chilling in rookiechat watching the spam fly by. A noobster asked if there was anything other than mining to do in EVE, and I saw "Nope, just mine till you get skills to run missions". This offended me to the core, so I explained how to pull a simple protection racket using alts, that any fresh off the bus could accomplish. Noobchat exploded with "That's wrong don't do it" "You'll get banned!" "Stop telling people to break the rules!"

With that kind of welcome to EVE, it's no wonder people get so spazzed over bumping, ganking, and actual PVP.

But remote repping modules are highs...

One of our newbies, about a week old or something, already pulled off like 5 successful, er, security deposits...

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Thomas Orca
Broski is ded
#155 - 2012-12-29 03:58:39 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:

But remote repping modules are highs...


RR requires some level of selflessness.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#156 - 2012-12-29 04:00:06 UTC
Thomas Orca wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
But remote repping modules are highs...

RR requires some level of selflessness.

You might be a neutral remote repper alt.

Though that's a bit more hazardous now.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#157 - 2012-12-29 06:50:21 UTC
Fal Dara wrote:

4. the 'bloated ego' thing ... other than the fact that i own things most 0.0 people dont, and never will (because losing ships is spendy, and turns them into hobos), i dont see it. See me in my corp chat some time--i make no ilusions about knowing everything--infact, i'd bet i ask the most questions there on any given day. There's no 'ego' in that sense.


What? A nullsec player is just as likely to spend money on "Spendy" ships as a highsec player. I mean I guess I could officer fit my ratting Vindicator and stuff it in my deadspace fit carrier just to make a ridiculous killmail happen.

I mean usually I'm stuck in a sabre for PVP because no one else flies them worth a damn, but if I wasn't I'd be in my Cynabal which I named Cinnabon.
Aramatheia
Tiffany and Co.
#158 - 2012-12-29 07:03:09 UTC
masternerdguy wrote:
You resort to blaming the evil nullseccers for all your problems.



Thats probably the best part of the whole post.

Funny how its low/null folks who sit there and "cry" because high sec is the source for all thier problems too.

You want ppl out there, make it appealing, giant alliances that are chums with each other, or a land of gate camps hardly sounds like awesomeness, dont you think. But no go on, delete highsec, its the area of space in which most the news is probably generated, with all the gank missions hulkageddons and so forth.

Make Eve a boring as hell waste of server space. Maybe CCP might enjoy being able to focus on thier new game for a change
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#159 - 2012-12-29 07:06:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Aramatheia wrote:
But no go on, delete highsec, its the area of space in which most the news is probably generated, with all the gank missions hulkageddons and so forth.

lol
nullsec side projects are literally the only thing externally significant to have ever happened in highsec
SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#160 - 2012-12-29 07:10:59 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Aramatheia wrote:
But no go on, delete highsec, its the area of space in which most the news is probably generated, with all the gank missions hulkageddons and so forth.

lol
nullsec side projects are literally the only thing externally significant to have ever happened in highsec


Yeah it is pretty funny. The only time Highsec makes the news is during Hulkageddon. Outside of that it's 0.0 news 24/7 with the occasional foray into something hilarious that Rooks and Kings did in Lowsec/Syndicate.