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Looking for nerd help: Why was Incarna so bad?
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Sara XIII
The Carnifex Corp
#41 - 2011-10-24 01:04:10 UTC
Well said Brujo. Smile
Between Ignorance and Wisdom
Thur Barbek
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#42 - 2011-10-24 01:10:42 UTC
Aidan Brooder wrote:
Spr09 wrote:
took up too much processing power (and it still does dammit!) and uses memory on ati cards like they're tissues in allergy season.


Just for kicks I tried it on one of my older desktops today (4 years old!). Guess what? It runs just fine, no hiccups.
Invest in some quality hardware next time and don't try to run like 12 clients at the same time.

If you want to do that, you'll need this...

CCP allows for multiple clients, but that doesn't mean we all need to be restricted to WoW stoneage graphics because some cannot afford a cluster at home when trying to do cluster work. Roll

PS: ATI card on this computer. No problems.




You people need to learn to read. The people who had melted cards. HAD. PAST TENSE. In the first week or so, the CQ was horribly implemented. It didnt limit it's rendering and people who had overclocked or high-end (and thus high heat) parts suffered meltdowns. They quickly fixed it with a patch within a week or so. Doing tests now, will not give the same results.

if you look over every post that mentions cards melting notice its in the past tense, and often references when CQ first came out.
Aidan Brooder
Dynasphere Ltd.
#43 - 2011-10-24 01:15:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Aidan Brooder
Thur Barbek wrote:
Aidan Brooder wrote:
Spr09 wrote:
took up too much processing power (and it still does dammit!) and uses memory on ati cards like they're tissues in allergy season.


Just for kicks I tried it on one of my older desktops today (4 years old!). Guess what? It runs just fine, no hiccups.
Invest in some quality hardware next time and don't try to run like 12 clients at the same time.

If you want to do that, you'll need this...

CCP allows for multiple clients, but that doesn't mean we all need to be restricted to WoW stoneage graphics because some cannot afford a cluster at home when trying to do cluster work. Roll

PS: ATI card on this computer. No problems.




You people need to learn to read. The people who had melted cards. HAD. PAST TENSE. In the first week or so, the CQ was horribly implemented. It didnt limit it's rendering and people who had overclocked or high-end (and thus high heat) parts suffered meltdowns. They quickly fixed it with a patch within a week or so. Doing tests now, will not give the same results.

if you look over every post that mentions cards melting notice its in the past tense, and often references when CQ first came out.


Which was a time I was there too and had no problem from day one with my current computer.
Perhaps you need to learn to read, because what I tested was his statement that it still eats too much computing power. Got it now?

EDIT: Let me add that if your graphic card "melts" you have horrible, horrible heat sensors in your machine and should really get that C64-clone to the next museum.

Blog: http://aidanbrooder.wordpress.com My EVE Playlist on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLSNuHY7z8n1q1BdLvW2verIfH8vvWtz_x
Denidil
Cascades Mountain Operatives
#44 - 2011-10-24 01:34:57 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Several reasons. First off, when incarna hit it literally melted high end graphics cards. Literally, it melted relatively expensive hardware


that is the fault of the manufacturer's not monitoring the TDP of their own cards as is their freaking job.

Tedium and difficulty are not the same thing, if you don't realize this then STFU about game design.
Thur Barbek
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#45 - 2011-10-24 01:35:46 UTC
Aidan Brooder wrote:
.


I wasn't just talking to only you, a lot of people in this thread/forum are saying the same stuff you did. Whenever the melting cards issue is brought up nowadays, people respond by "testing it" and laughing off the poster. You just happened to be the person i responded to, and unleashed my built up annoyance at various other people.

I'm also not trying to argue that people who had their stuff melted were not idoits. I would guess that most of them put together their own computer and didn't care about cooling, or that they overclocked their cards without really knowing what could happen.
Aidan Brooder
Dynasphere Ltd.
#46 - 2011-10-24 01:42:12 UTC
Thur Barbek wrote:
Aidan Brooder wrote:
.


I wasn't just talking to only you, a lot of people in this thread/forum are saying the same stuff you did. Whenever the melting cards issue is brought up nowadays, people respond by "testing it" and laughing off the poster. You just happened to be the person i responded to, and unleashed my built up annoyance at various other people.

I'm also not trying to argue that people who had their stuff melted were not idoits. I would guess that most of them put together their own computer and didn't care about cooling, or that they overclocked their cards without really knowing what could happen.




Then we basically agree... Nice to be the quoted focus of your annoyance. I can live with that. Lol

Blog: http://aidanbrooder.wordpress.com My EVE Playlist on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLSNuHY7z8n1q1BdLvW2verIfH8vvWtz_x
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#47 - 2011-10-24 02:48:56 UTC
Thur Barbek wrote:
Aidan Brooder wrote:
.


I wasn't just talking to only you, a lot of people in this thread/forum are saying the same stuff you did. Whenever the melting cards issue is brought up nowadays, people respond by "testing it" and laughing off the poster. You just happened to be the person i responded to, and unleashed my built up annoyance at various other people.

I'm also not trying to argue that people who had their stuff melted were not idoits. I would guess that most of them put together their own computer and didn't care about cooling, or that they overclocked their cards without really knowing what could happen.




Damn forums ate my post again. Plz fix this, CCP.

I custom built my computer. ASUS M4A89 mobo, ATI Radeon HD 4890 GPU, 4GB DDR3 RAM, and AMD Phenom x4 965BE. It runs CQ on max settings at interval immediate perfectly. Over 120fps at best. Less when something graphically intensive is happening. But almost never less than 45fps until large fleet battles. So I feel confident saying that Incarna does not require high-end stuff to run great.

Unfortunately, not many people have the knowledge to properly match their hardware to get the best out of it. Many folks simply buy whatever HP, Dell, or whoever throws at them, regardless of whether or not it works well as a unit. (Most of the time it doesn't.)

The problem with Incarna was the lack of content, and CCP upper management's response to the players' concerns. $1000 jeans, Fearless, etc. The technical achievement of the Carbon engine and the avatars is really great. It looks fabulous. But looks mean nothing if no one else can see it.

There was no where to go, and nothing to see. No interaction. Only one CQ. Yes, I know, the others are coming. But too little, too late. Incarna really needed the establishments. Now CCP is in a financially difficult situation. They burned through their dev cash and have no revenue to show for it. So they have to cut costs to pay the bills.

I think Incarna can be awesome, just as Hilmar says. But it needs to be a finished product. For now, the money just isn't there to finish it. I want to see it in all it's glory. But no if that means getting a half-assed product.

Once the finances are in order and CCP has the dev capacity available to finish Incarna, I hope they do. A good starting point for the establishments would be the services availabe in station. Bounty office, corp offices, fitting and repair services, refine/reprocessing service, and the others. Player establishments should just be another form of corp office. The concepts are easy. But designing the environments will take time.

Let's give CCP some time to get on track. Once they do, I think we will be very impressed with the results.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
Cur
Back Door Burglars
#48 - 2011-10-24 04:03:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Cur
Elise DarkStar wrote:
I don't know **** about making video games and this has been bugging me for a long time. What was the problem with the Incarna "engine" (i dont even know what terms to use) that made it so costly to develop yet so underwhelming? Couldn't they have used existing examples from other games and already have created full working multiplayer station environments? Is it because they are trying to make such high-quality graphics?

I'm really clueless about this stuff and would greatly appreciate some explanation of what's going on.

Thanks.




Incarna has been "in the works" for years. We see a sneak peak and they're wakling around a huge station, and bar a "buggy" door that doesnt slide open when he walks up to it then walks thru it - it looked great. IT set a standard for what we're expecting. IT was a big open area, and a bar like enviroment, if im not mistaken.

We get told we're getting captains quarters, we're like awesome! Finaly they're giving us some Incarna!!

We get given incarna. And the area one can move around in is comparable to that of the rumpus room of you're house.

We ask about the rest - and get told it still AGES off in development, and we only get 1 statino interior, instead of the 4 which we'd expect for all the different factions.

They halt development of every other aspect of eve to pour resources into WiS (even tho they may have still been working on eve - the players did not see any changes, or any work being done at all)

We get angry, as it appears they've spent the past 6 months working on shittly little solitary confinent box just for you, and try to get you to by clothes to wear for it too.



The reason they are using their own engine is because they are making a new MMORPG with another company - rather than liscence the rights to use another engine they decided to make their own. why? Existing engines diddnt do what they wanted it too - hense a custom one was needed - besides, everyone uses the unreal or crysis engines these days, its old technology made to look good with high quality textures - simply, an illusion of looking good when in fact its crap. They're trying to make use of all the extra processing power avaliable to us today.

Also another reason they cant release the full station enviroment is its a resource hog - as are most newly developed engines untill they are fine tuned and debugged. IF they were to release the station enviroment with us, WiS inside Jita would make you're CPU and Graphics card jump out of the case run to you're kitchen and jump inside the freezer in an attempt to save itself.... but it wouldent help.... they'd still burst into flames once they get inside the icebox and you'd be up for buying a new fridge too.
Luckytania
Bullets of Justice
#49 - 2011-10-24 04:09:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Luckytania
Elise DarkStar wrote:
I don't know **** about making video games and this has been bugging me for a long time. What was the problem with the Incarna "engine" (i dont even know what terms to use) that made it so costly to develop yet so underwhelming? Couldn't they have used existing examples from other games and already have created full working multiplayer station environments? Is it because they are trying to make such high-quality graphics?

I'm really clueless about this stuff and would greatly appreciate some explanation of what's going on.

Thanks.

Elise, I've read the thread and think you've received some decent responses about the Incarna *engine*.

But bear in mind that the current state of CCP is not due purely to WiS (Walking in Stations).

What spun many more people up and caused the mass riots and 8% loss in subscriptions, IMO, was a conflagration of many things all hitting the fan with the Incarna release this Summer.

And most important of all was the threat of micro-transactions opening up "gold ammo" and a clear Pay to Win mechanism. (Yes, I know PLEX is the camel's nose, but this was much worse.)


In no particular order, many of the player's hit the tipping point due to:

1) Threat to have *anyone* using the API have to pay $100. (bye bye EFT, EveMon, Chribba's web tools, many others)

2) :18 months: - the statement (shortly after the Apocrypha release) that pretty much all dev work on 'Eve proper' was coming to a standstill for 18 months until WiS/Incarna was released. "The wait will be worth it. Trust us." It wasn't. We no longer do.

3) "gold ammo" as mentioned above.

4) Years of serious issues being pointed out on Tranquility, the test server/environment, where the bug reports were ignored and moved to Production. With, naturally, the subsequent 'emergency' patches to fix those bugs which had been reported.

5) Being *forced* to go from ship/pod into a slow loading, compute intensive, resource hog instead of the prior light weight 'ship spinning' UI when even just docking to pick up for ammo, for example. (Even "The Door" wasn't an option until a ruckus was raised by the players.)

6) Ignoring the comments of the players assuming it would all just blow over. see 8

7) clearly lying to us about their intents. see 8

8) and most important of all was the blatant disdain shown to the players/consumers/golden-geese of the people who pay to play this game.
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#50 - 2011-10-24 04:25:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Brooks Puuntai
I'm just going to leave these here which would explain why many are pissed.

Old Ambulation- Some of these videos are from 3 YEARS ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n41s1Iox18A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dzy7DG8VR2s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoOyvRTA2Ps

Now look at what we got. Shiny graphics aren't everything btw.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden
Cur
Back Door Burglars
#51 - 2011-10-24 04:26:43 UTC
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
I'm just going to leave these here which would explain why many are pissed.

Old Ambulation- Some of these videos are from 3 YEARS ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n41s1Iox18A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dzy7DG8VR2s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoOyvRTA2Ps

Now look at what we got. Shiny graphics aren't everything btw.



Thanks for linking them mate, i cbf :)
Elise DarkStar
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#52 - 2011-10-24 04:29:21 UTC
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
I'm just going to leave these here which would explain why many are pissed.

Old Ambulation- Some of these videos are from 3 YEARS ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n41s1Iox18A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dzy7DG8VR2s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoOyvRTA2Ps

Now look at what we got. Shiny graphics aren't everything btw.


Wow...see why didn't they just release that and spend all the time and money on creating WiS content?
Astrid Stjerna
Sebiestor Tribe
#53 - 2011-10-24 04:48:34 UTC
Elise DarkStar wrote:
I don't know **** about making video games and this has been bugging me for a long time. What was the problem with the Incarna "engine" (i dont even know what terms to use) that made it so costly to develop yet so underwhelming? Couldn't they have used existing examples from other games and already have created full working multiplayer station environments? Is it because they are trying to make such high-quality graphics?

I'm really clueless about this stuff and would greatly appreciate some explanation of what's going on.

Thanks.


In an attempt to give an answer that says more than just 'I don't like it'....

I recall, when the idea of 'getting out of the pod' was first floated by players several years ago, the main reason that CCP gave for holding it back was that the technology wasn't yet there to support it. We're now, I think, at a point where the technology is closer, but not entirely ready.

I prefer to think that Incarna didn't so much 'fail' (because it did accomplish what it set out to do -- namely, it got us out of our pods), but it was too ambitious to be fully realized on anything but bleeding-edge technology. That, and I think CCP did have too many irons in the fire developing WoD, Dust 514, and Incarna simultaneously.

Now that CCP has put its focus back on EvE, they'll be able to re-evaluate where EvE is going and perhaps look at Incarna again after the tech has developed a bit more (Hey, CCP! There's going to be an 8-core processor coming out soon! Multi-threading FTW!).

I can't get rid of my darn signature!  Oh, wait....
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#54 - 2011-10-24 05:13:37 UTC
Elise DarkStar wrote:
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
I'm just going to leave these here which would explain why many are pissed.

Old Ambulation- Some of these videos are from 3 YEARS ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n41s1Iox18A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dzy7DG8VR2s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoOyvRTA2Ps

Now look at what we got. Shiny graphics aren't everything btw.


Wow...see why didn't they just release that and spend all the time and money on creating WiS content?


Because Hilmar was too focused on what the other companies in the industry where doing and not on what made Eve..Eve. Not only that while that engine/graphics would have worked nicely for Eve it wouldn't have worked to well for WoD. So instead of maintaining 1 engine while developing another they decided to scrap it and only focus on the one(Carbon). At least thats what my guess is.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden
pussnheels
Viziam
#55 - 2011-10-24 06:52:00 UTC
Elise DarkStar wrote:
I don't know **** about making video games and this has been bugging me for a long time. What was the problem with the Incarna "engine" (i dont even know what terms to use) that made it so costly to develop yet so underwhelming? Couldn't they have used existing examples from other games and already have created full working multiplayer station environments? Is it because they are trying to make such high-quality graphics?

I'm really clueless about this stuff and would greatly appreciate some explanation of what's going on.

Thanks.

my opinion , the whole concept of incarna and walking in stations is brilliant , only and even i admit that was badly introduced
First started with the avatars creation and they ar ein general gorgeous and well done , but then last summer CQ was forced upon us , you didn(t had a choice , it wouldn't be so bad if there weren't all those technical issues because it hadn't been tested properly and of course the whole issue with the vanity store and that leaked letter didn't really help

It should have been like it is today where you have the option of CQ or your shiphangar, from day one

Future of incarna and walking in stations , yes there will be a future for incarna but not this year , probably not next year and only when it has a use ingame

I do not agree with what you are saying , but i will defend to the death your right to say it...... Voltaire
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#56 - 2011-10-24 07:04:55 UTC
If I'm reading Hilmar Veigur Pettursen's (sp?) answers in the Eurogamer interview correctly, it was basically a case of CCP biting off waaaaaaaaay the f more than it could chew, given the limitations of present computer technology.

Incarna taken to the endpoint CCP envisions/ed probably wouldn't be even useable on anything short of a CAD $10K Alienware (they still around?) rig, and I suspect that even those would have had trouble with it on high settings.

Trouble is, getting to the point where CCP finally learned this took up a lot of dev-time and company funds, whilst back-burner'ing fixes and iteration that the player-base had been screaming for, for years. The debacle of its' releae--what we got should never have even been in public Beta, let alone "live"--just exacerbated that, a lot of the playerbase just decided "enough is enough," and it took the shitstorm of unsubs to finally make CCP see it.

Basically, they let their success go their heads (as Hilmar, very much to his credit, openly admits in said interview), and it kack'ed their bottom line.

Star Wars: the Old Republic may not be EVE. But I'll take the sound of dual blaster-pistols over "NURVV CLAOKING NAOW!!!11oneone!!" any day of the week.
Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
#57 - 2011-10-24 07:27:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Diomedes Calypso
Alice Katsuko wrote:
You can't just stick one engine into another and expect the two to work. Integrating the Unreal engine into the existing EVE client would probably have required just as much work as developing the WoD/Incarna engine, and the results would have been much less impressive.

From what I've read, the Unreal engine, and other engines, do not offer the functionality which CCP wanted, and adding that functionality would have either been impossible or required so many resources that it would have made more sense to develop a custom engine. CCP chose to develop an in-house engine precisely because it could then make sure that engine contained all of the features it wanted, and not have to pay someone else for the privilege of using it. Keep in mind that no other game offers the level of customization found in EVE's avatars, or the detail of movement. Watch a character turn to see what I mean: most games just have the character spin around; EVE's characters actually come close to the way a real person turns in place.

The Incarna engine is actually quite nice. The problem is that it is really intended for a game that is to be released in two or three years. Consequently, it is meant to run on top of the line hardware, and is very resource intensive. In two or three years hardware will catch up with CCP's vision, and the results will probably be awesome.

The problem with Incarna is that CCP had a general vision, but no way to implement that vision in any meaningful way.


Well written and informative.


I dont' entirely undertand why they couldn't have say.. bought something like Global crossing and just used the avatars in the Global(edit) AGenda engjine as the pic's for eve.. there really wouln't be anything else shared would there? (well maybe a skill queue or something)

(lol i said global crossing instead of agenda.. kinda glad lvlt bought global crossing as a lvlt shareholder)

.
Boris Ginnungagap
Doomheim
#58 - 2011-10-24 07:29:32 UTC
Elise DarkStar wrote:
I don't know **** about making video games and this has been bugging me for a long time. What was the problem with the Incarna "engine" (i dont even know what terms to use) that made it so costly to develop yet so underwhelming? Couldn't they have used existing examples from other games and already have created full working multiplayer station environments? Is it because they are trying to make such high-quality graphics?

I'm really clueless about this stuff and would greatly appreciate some explanation of what's going on.

Thanks.

Because EVE is all about space ship simulation, not space barbie simulation...
Astrid Stjerna
Sebiestor Tribe
#59 - 2011-10-25 01:12:36 UTC
Diomedes Calypso wrote:

I dont' entirely undertand why they couldn't have say.. bought something like Global crossing and just used the avatars in the Global(edit) AGenda engjine as the pic's for eve.. there really wouln't be anything else shared would there? (well maybe a skill queue or something)

(lol i said global crossing instead of agenda.. kinda glad lvlt bought global crossing as a lvlt shareholder)


They'd still have to pay to use the assets (ie, the models) even if they didn't license the engine itself.

I can't get rid of my darn signature!  Oh, wait....
Valkris Arkayne
Perkone
Caldari State
#60 - 2011-10-25 01:35:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Valkris Arkayne
Boris Ginnungagap wrote:

Because EVE is all about space ship simulation, not space barbie simulation...


Currently, yes. EVE is about space ship simulation.

However, it will need to expand and evolve in order to survive, or be passed up by other games that are reaching beyond EVE's scope. At the moment, EVE is absolutely the BEST space simulation available. I'd like them to remain above the competition by becomming the BEST character simulator, the BEST ground combat simulator, the BEST crafting and role-playing and socializing simulators, and so forth. If EVE is to survive, it must bring in fresh blood.

Keep Incarna Alive (just... make it meaningful and not overpriced fluff).