These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Warfare & Tactics

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
Previous page123Next page
 

A few solutions to balance FW properly.
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Pinaculus
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2012-12-27 20:01:53 UTC
So, the problem is that once you lose it's harder to make a comeback because all the fairweather friends switch sides for better LP payouts?

I guess you get to learn who your real friends are, then.

I know sometimes it's difficult to realize just how much you spend on incidental things each month or year, but seriously, EVE is very cheap entertainment compared to most things... If you are a smoker, smoke one less pack a week and pay for EVE, with money left over to pick up a cheap bundle of flowers for the EVE widow upstairs.
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
#22 - 2012-12-27 20:16:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Mutnin
Pinaculus wrote:
So, the problem is that once you lose it's harder to make a comeback because all the fairweather friends switch sides for better LP payouts?

I guess you get to learn who your real friends are, then.



It's not just that, but something the Amarr are now facing as did the Caldari a few months ago. CCP made it so allied militia's can run plexes vs both enemy factions. This in it's self is not a bad thing and it brings a larger scale to the Sov War.

However when combined with farmers coming from both allied factions it creates even a more difficult situation. Back when Amarr had no space all the Minmatar farmers came to Caldari space to farm away. Meaning we dealt with both Minmatar & Gallente plexers.

Now that Caldari has no mention-able amount of space left the farmers are all at Amarr's door step. If Caldari takes any noticeable amount of space back, the farmers will again return. Meaning the new teeter totter is just farming running back and forth to farm either of the losing side's space.

I know personally when I use to try and defend Kinakka, I used to get it stable only to be out of game for my 3 day work week to come back with it being 20-30% contested every week. It hasn't even been 2 weeks since Caldari recaptured Kinakka and it's already back to 89% contested. It surely isn't PVPers doing that.
Deen Wispa
Sheriff.
United Caldari Space Command.
#23 - 2012-12-27 20:27:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Deen Wispa
How do people feel about the following two solutions;

1-Rollback timer to be implemented for defensive plexing. If the person runs from the plex, then the timer rolls back to a certain amount of time

2-Increase the number of rats to shoot for offensive plexing. Obviously, we don't want a huge spawn like we did before this patch. But perhaps a couple more spawns with an extra NPC per spawn ? Some people say 'chained farming' is a tactic that people use and my solution would help minimize that but I have not seen chained farming on either side so I believe it's a nonissue.

Edit: Also, I would like to see more plexes requiring a BC to run it. The Fast Forward patch really encouraged people to come out in BCs and pirate ships. However Retribution has discouraged that and it's all just cruiser fights and below

High Five. Yeah! C'est La Eve .
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
#24 - 2012-12-27 20:28:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Mutnin
Bad Messenger wrote:
There is no point to try to fix FW anymore, CCP has done all they will done and thats it.

Better to look something else to do.



CCP just needs to fine tune things a bit to make it worthwhile to engage in the Sov War. It's not even major adjustments at this point but just little tweaks as I've mentioned and maybe a few things I've overlooked. Over the system we have could work if they spent just a little time to tune it in.
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
#25 - 2012-12-27 20:35:02 UTC
Deen Wispa wrote:
How do people feel about the following two solutions;

1-Rollback timer to be implemented for defensive plexing. If the person runs from the plex, then the timer rolls back to a certain amount of time

2-Increase the number of rats to shoot for offensive plexing. Obviously, we don't want a huge spawn like we did before this patch. But perhaps a couple more spawns with an extra NPC per spawn ? Some people say 'chained farming' is a tactic that people use and my solution would help minimize that but I have not seen chained farming on either side so I believe it's a nonissue.


I mentioned in one of my other post that I'm not 100% sure on the roll back timer. I think it has good and bad but I wouldn't mind seeing it tested to see how it worked. My only objection to it was it might give an advantage to defenders because they don't have to undue what the attacker did.

The good might out weigh the bad which is why I wouldn't mind seeing it tested. One of the good is it would stop people from trying to defend by running the timer down then leaving. But then again that's a tactic that took someones time to do, so it's both good & bad.

Increasing the amount of rats might be a good thing in the Meds but I don't think I would do it in the novice or smalls. I can't commit on the large because honestly I've never seen one. Lol
Cal Stantson
17eme Chasseurs a Cheval
#26 - 2012-12-27 20:35:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Cal Stantson
GalMil seems to find it "worthwhile to engage in the Sov War". What you really mean is "CCP just needs to make it easier for Caldari to take on Gallente despite their inferior numbers and organisation"

Whine less, organise more.
Ashterothi
The Order of Thelemic Ascension
The Invited
#27 - 2012-12-27 20:37:41 UTC
I personally like suggestion 3. As we ramp up further and further then more big plexs spawn, bigger ships are brought, control goes quicker, rewards are better as larger fleets pile in, culminating in possible capital engagement for ihub flips. Sounds cool to me.

I also agree with what Deen said, plexs need rollback, and rats should spawn throughout, not just at the beginning. I also think that rats shouldn't shoot so as to not alert the AFK plexer that the timer has stopped Twisted

Watch me live for all your Empyrean news and analysis!

Mutnin
SQUIDS.
#28 - 2012-12-27 20:40:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Mutnin
Cal Stantson wrote:
GalMil seems to find it "worthwhile to engage in the Sov War". What you really mean is "CCP just needs to make it easier for Caldari to take on Gallente despite their inferior numbers and organisation"

Whine less, organise more.



Perhaps you should go search the old forum for all the posts of GalMil guys claiming they didn't plex because it wasn't worthwhile. Even after the tiericide hit GalMil held that same position for a while when CalMil held warzone control.

You guys didn't start finding it worthwhile to plex, until Minmatar held perma tier 4 and bumps to V, so you could put all noob alts over there to plex Caldari systems for easy ISK.

TL:DR, GalMil never thought plexing was worthwhile until they could farm it for ISK, it's no wonder you have no objections to farmers controlling the war zone. Blink
Ashterothi
The Order of Thelemic Ascension
The Invited
#29 - 2012-12-27 20:44:06 UTC
Cal Stantson wrote:
GalMil seems to find it "worthwhile to engage in the Sov War". What you really mean is "CCP just needs to make it easier for Caldari to take on Gallente despite their inferior numbers and organisation"

Whine less, organise more.


Caldari having inferior numbers is kinda funny. I have proven this false in the past. However on a side note, the gap is lessening now that Gallente are being perceived as winning, unlike 3 months ago. It will be hilarious to see what happens once Gallente actually DO have superior numbers.

Thinking about this, more of the same I suspect.

Watch me live for all your Empyrean news and analysis!

Lucy Ferrr
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#30 - 2012-12-27 21:02:48 UTC
Mutnin if you spent half as much time in game actually plexing as you do crying on the forums about how FW is stacked against Caldari, well Caldari would be the faction about to hit T5 and Gallente would be struggling to keep one or two systems. What I am saying sir is you waste a lot of time crying on these forums. All my tear reservoirs have been filled by you, so thanks for that.
Super Chair
Project Cerberus
Templis CALSF
#31 - 2012-12-27 21:19:52 UTC
Deen Wispa wrote:
How do people feel about the following two solutions;

1-Rollback timer to be implemented for defensive plexing. If the person runs from the plex, then the timer rolls back to a certain amount of time

2-Increase the number of rats to shoot for offensive plexing. Obviously, we don't want a huge spawn like we did before this patch. But perhaps a couple more spawns with an extra NPC per spawn ? Some people say 'chained farming' is a tactic that people use and my solution would help minimize that but I have not seen chained farming on either side so I believe it's a nonissue.

Edit: Also, I would like to see more plexes requiring a BC to run it. The Fast Forward patch really encouraged people to come out in BCs and pirate ships. However Retribution has discouraged that and it's all just cruiser fights and below


1: I agree whole heartedly for a mechanic that if no one is in capture range the plex timer, the timer begins to count backwards to a "neutral" state. It doesn't matter what militia you're in, if you chase a person out of a plex (and continue to chase them) they shouldn't be rewarded for running away and coming back later (a common tactic, aka the "boring you to death" tactic). A change like this just makes plain sense.

2: I don't really agree with making the plexes harder. Before the NPC changes offensively plexing was really a pain in the rear and you did not see many people in lowsec actually doing it. Currently plexing is accessible and there is more activity, also there was a significant time spent difference between offensively running a plex and a defensive one if the same size due to the time spent killing rats when offensive.

As far as lack of BCs in plexing, CCP could just implement large outposts just like there are of every other plex size. Besides, the new cruisers are so win why fly a BC? Big smile
Naomie Hunter
Doomheim
#32 - 2012-12-27 21:24:32 UTC
Faction Warfare is something I have not played in a very long time, ever since No.Mercy were aligned with the Amarr Militia.
Looking at the Militia HUD since my return and reading the forums, many people are suggesting that the Caldari Militia is very poor at organising themselves.

However, I don't believe it is a stretch to imagine that people who were once heavily involved in Caldari FW have left to go elsewhere, such as 0.0, the opposing faction or other.

Doing so has perhaps caused considerable damage to the overall turnout of players and organisation the Caldari Militia will choose to employ. Negative outlook given their position in Faction Warfare currently. I can't say there are many people who would join the losing side.

I personally am not a FC, and I have not been in the role for years. It would be very difficult for me to enter the Caldari Militia and attempt to get any COGS turning, simply because it is something I am not comfortable doing.

In my opinion (like many that have said it already), the Caldari Militia needs are players willing to organise, creating a force of small teams that can engage multiple systems at any given time.
It will be very hard to find people as was said earlier, people don't usually join the losing side. Changing what a player usually does can also be a difficult process, and it requires willingness, which not everyone has.

Not everyone is the same at the end of the day, and that is something which needs to be understood (we cannot all lead, or enjoy leading).
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
#33 - 2012-12-27 21:38:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Mutnin
Lucy Ferrr wrote:
Mutnin if you spent half as much time in game actually plexing as you do crying on the forums about how FW is stacked against Caldari, well Caldari would be the faction about to hit T5 and Gallente would be struggling to keep one or two systems. What I am saying sir is you waste a lot of time crying on these forums. All my tear reservoirs have been filled by you, so thanks for that.



I tried to jump on the plexing bandwagon when everything was first changed. I grew tired of chasing farmers around and wasting my time undoing the damage they did. I have no real desire to repeat that effort until the time CCP fixes the problems with farming. It's just not worth while.

I've toyed with the idea of picking a single system in Gal space and try to attack then defend in order to create PVP, but as for randomly roaming around trying to defend & capture systems throughout the warzone it's just not worth while. Just look at Gal's warezone control and look at the many systems that are 50% contested or more. There are certain systems they keep deplexed, but others they totally ignore because it's just not worthwhile to invest the time defending.

The only real fighting with plexes comes as I mentioned when dealing with strategic locations, out side that, plexing for war zone control just doesn't bring fights. Example I could start plexing Intaki and likely get fights just because Gals get bent out of shape when Caldari take that system. However plexing a random system like say Iges or Eranakko will likely just end in boredom.

What we need is to figure out a way that both sides fight for every system or else it's not really Sov Warfare, but rather Arena PVP based in a limited amount of systems.
Colt Blackhawk
Doomheim
#34 - 2012-12-27 21:42:13 UTC
+1

Great ideas.
CCP----> FIX IT!!!!

[09:04:53] Ashira Twilight > Plant the f****** amarr flag and s*** on their smoking wrecks.
ground ctrl
Goose Swarm Coalition
#35 - 2012-12-27 22:16:06 UTC
Inferno had problems but they were misdiagnosed and the good was thrown out with the bad. I still think the changes I suggested would work.

Cearain wrote:
Abyssum Invocat wrote:


The Inferno tier system was completely ****** in the ass by farmers that were unduly influencing warzone control, it was a good system that was implemented in a terrifically broken way.

Just sum it up briefly for us all in no uncertain terms, what do you want done to FW?


Believe it or not we both agree. It was mainly the farmers and the mechanics that encouraged people farming plexes in gunless frigates that made inferno so bad and kept the amarr from being able to keep economic parity.

I would like the the original inferno tier system but toned down. Instead of tier 5 being 75% discount maybe make it a 60% discount. But keep it so there is no lp for d-plexing and keep it where there is no reason to join a side that just did a tier 5 cashout because you will have just missed the boat.

The cashouts gave goals instead of this forever grind we have now. Perhaps the time between cashouts should be longer or shorter. I really don't care, but that could easilly be accomplished by changing the vp per plex. (yes i said vp not lp. vp is how much a system is contested per plex)

As for the other changes I would still recomend that they make plexing a pvp game as per my signature. But if they must have npcs I like what hans has proposed and what ccp is doing. Must kill them all etc. Another key is to start notifying us when plexes are attacked and a form of timer rollback. But these notifications and timer rollbacks will not be good if the war is lopsided. And unfortunately because they chose a lopsided financial system that sort of ruins the whole thing.

To the extent people say that there is no advantage to winning under the old system if everyone can hit tier five, I would say that if your side currently has over 50% of the systems you get full lp for pvp and a 50% bonus (over pre inferno rates) to the lp you get for missions. If your side has under 50% of the systems then you get half the lp for pvp and only preinferno pay for missions.

Plus the side that hold the majority of systems over a 12 month period would get some other perk. Perhaps an economic one like an additional item in the lp store, or just improve a unique item (make amarr plates or eg, minmatar shield worth buying) Or it could be a non-economic one like a statue in the fw system that was held by the militia long enough. The statue could be of the person who got the most kills or the most vp or the ceo or the corp with the most kills or vp or it could be a statue of all 4 or whatever. Other sorts of swag for winning could be an increase in your factions corporations in the war zone. So if minmatar win some of the carthum stations might become boundless stations. There are plenty of options.

The idea is that there would be very short term goals like capture this plex. Medium term goals like achieve a tier 5 cashout, and long term goals like memoralize our achievments permantently in the game through continued dominance. Because these goals all have different timelines people would always have more to fight for. The game would be economically balanced as long as everyside could achieve tier 5 cashouts.

If they did this and one side still couldn't hit a tier 5 cashout then they could do some tweaks like reduce the vp for d-plexing. Or they could say you can't start plexing a system for a set time after it flips, or if you do, you don't get as much vp. Which option would depend on the specific reason why a certain faction was unable to achieve any tier 5 cashouts.

But the original inferno system had a much more strategic nature than this current forever grind. You had certain stages to achieve to hit a tier five cashout. If you botch any of them you ruin it. But if you follow through you should be able to hit the tier 5 cashout. That was a very good thing.

FW doesn't need to be economically lopsided to make it meaningful.


-Cearain's alt
Abannan
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2012-12-28 04:08:51 UTC
Mutnin wrote:
masternerdguy wrote:
[quote=Pinaculus]This isn't a troll post. It's a serious question. I'm new to Faction War, and just wondered.... Why are ISK farmers a bad thing? If all they do is flip systems of little strategic value for LP then why care? The only people bothered by lower tiers and lower payouts would be other ISK farmers. What am I missing?


You know how small alliances who are crap like to talk about how the sov war is unfair because they don't want to participate in sov mechanics? You've seen them talk about how they "just want to pvp" and how the enemy has no life and all that?

Basically the caldari are mad because they are losing, but they are losing because they refuse to fight the sov war (plexes / flipping) and just do lolroams. The gallente fight both the sov war and the lolroam war.



The very same farmer advantage that Caldari once enjoyed and left the Gals powerless.


I didn't see you complaining about it then.
ground ctrl
Goose Swarm Coalition
#37 - 2012-12-28 07:46:48 UTC
Mutnin wrote:
Pinaculus wrote:
This isn't a troll post. It's a serious question. I'm new to Faction War, and just wondered.... Why are ISK farmers a bad thing? If all they do is flip systems of little strategic value for LP then why care? The only people bothered by lower tiers and lower payouts would be other ISK farmers. What am I missing?


Because the farmers all gravitate to the side which gives them the most ISK per hour. This means guys on the losing side can't make a comeback due to anything they gain will be taken away by farmers. When you are dealing with hundreds of farmers that are around all hours of the day you simply can not stop them from taking the plexes, specially when the reward to the farmer is 150% more than the reward to the guy defending.

It's like Custard's last stand against the Indians or the British against the Zulus. The overwhelming numbers take their toll.


There will always be more people who chose more money instead of less money. The people who are calling the shots on how faction war will work don't seem to understand that.

The original inferno had economic consequences for taking systems but also had some balances. Pretty much all the factions could hit tier 5 so they really ended up with economic parity. The only one that didn't and might not have been able to was the amarr. But that had allot to do with nulli choosing to cash out early and the crazy farming horde that formed up for the minmatar thanks to problems distinct from the tier structure used, such as the easy availability of farming alts and huge rewards.

The recent changes are not more of the same from inferno. They actually make it more lopsided.
JaneBudden
Spiritus Draconis
#38 - 2012-12-28 11:08:28 UTC
if we doo all theese changes you want :
dont forget to remove ecm from caldari mission rats....

ah and well move jita to gal space please
otherwise all theese little farmers will go caldari again

-> just decrease the money for plexes and add 1 low dps spawn and we will be fine


btw im just wondering are the FW guys the only ones who are posting with their main on the forums Big smile
Mekhana
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2012-12-28 11:19:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Mekhana
If the situation was the opposite you'd not be here complaining.

Just saying.

Vide longe er eros di Luminaire VII, uni canse pra krage e determiniex! Sange por Sange! Descanse bravex eros, mie freires. Mortir por vostre Liberete, farmilie, ide e amis. lons Proviste sen mort! Luminaire liber mas! 
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#40 - 2012-12-28 12:58:53 UTC
Pre-Retribution, FW was Thrashers Online.

Now it is Thrashers & Mallers Online (with Augorors Online supporting them). So I agree there needs to be something done to encourage BC and BS usage in faction warfare space. I haven't undocked my Cyclone in months.

Not that this is all bad; the T1 cruiser buff has reinvigorated the class, and FW is now (due to the plex spawn frequency) the pre-eminent place to go for T1 cruiser PVP. Maybe that is how it should be and this is the lot of FW. Would I be completely disappointed if whenever I flew in FW it was in a T1 frig, dessie or cruiser? No.

As for the complaints about FW plexing and farmers. Well, people will farm, no matter what. Making missions more lucrative than plexing is not the solution; right now a bunch of strategists in the Minmatar militia subscribe to the theory that they need to push L4 to reattract the farming alts. They do this by farming basically risk-free 100K's worth of LP's from bulk spawning FW level 4's and bulk donating LP's to i-hubs, to push all systems to level 5 and toss up a massive buffer. This helps cement Tier 3 and soon Tier 4, and thus...farming alts.

The solution, to me, is to normalise FW missions or remove them entirely. This will make the game entirely about FW plexing. And yes, you will not get equality between opposing militias at all times. There will always be an underdog. There will always be vast swathes of territory heavily contested by the "losing" side, which can then push and flip and dump P's and cash out themselves once every so often.

But you won't have megatonnes of basically free LP's flooding into the market from missions, being spent on consciously attracting farmers, which then perpetuates inequalities with militias.

A peripheral change would also be to make effective covert cloaking ships in the destroyer and frigate class which are capable of ganking combat frigates. This will allow defenders to camp plexes and hotdrop people, which favors defenders.

But I don't think that the solutions presented by Mutnin are entirely plausible fixes or sensible changes to emchanics. Especially not biasing towards missions, which suits the rich who have alts and Tengus with covert subs.

~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
Previous page123Next page