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Null is Broken, Hisec working as intended.

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Lexmana
#101 - 2012-12-27 12:50:44 UTC
Confessor Golab wrote:
Guys, Im sorry to intrude on the Eternal Debate of Nerf Others, but you seem to miss the most important point here.

Its all about profits.

Bla Bla soccer moms
Bla Bla WoW
Bla Bla Bla


You do realise that on a global market it is often a good business strategy to create a niche product traget at a specific group of customers. Or do you think the car industry should all focus on soccer moms too?
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#102 - 2012-12-27 12:51:50 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
You are not only misreading it, you're employing an obvious fallacy.

"People build stuff in hi-sec, therefore trying to make it viable to build stuff in nullsec as well is the same as trying to turn it into hi-sec".

"****** had a moustache and you're growing a moustache, therefore you're trying to declare war on Poland and conquer eastern Europe."

Imagine that all Amarr ships had a 50% hit point penalty in 0.0; correcting this wouldn't be "turning 0.0 into hi-sec", it would just be correcting an obvious and egregious imbalance, because there's nothing inherent to the concept of hi-sec that mandates Amarr ships only being worthwhile in empire and not in null.


SO: No, building stuff isn't the defining characteristic of hi-sec. What makes hi-sec hi-sec are the characteristics that are unique to it, like CONCORD.

The ability to build stuff is explicitly enabled in all areas, even W-space; but they're not properly balanced. Hi-sec has all of the advantages and none of the disadvantages, which is obviously imbalanced. You don't get to have the best stations AND multiple stations AND the stations are free AND you can't be locked out of them AND you can't lose them AND you get free NPC protection AND you can run missions from them... something has to give here.



You try to build large quanities of anything in Wormhole space and see the fact that the costs soon out weight the rewards.
Yes we can build some things in Wormholes but no way near the amounts that can be built in Null
And to top it all off Null has access to ice to power those POSs and Moon Goo to help fund those POSs. That is even before we get to the fact that in null you are no more than a few minutes from the nearest Hi-Sec market via cyno.

So NO null has not gotten the bad end of the manufacturing stick by a long run.

As I have said Player owned should be better than NPC but I think giving null huge quantities of Hi-sec minerals would just make super caps owned by every person and their dog as well as completely destroying the hi-sec markets.


Yep I agree about W-space being even worse than sov 0.0, but I didn't want to complicate the issue by discussing which of the 2 starving dogs fighting for scraps from the fat man's table was the skinniest Blink

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#103 - 2012-12-27 12:52:00 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Randolph Rothstein wrote:
the game and its features is working as intended

because it it wasnt the devs would have fixed it

the pure fact that something exists is a proof that it was intended this way - like smallpox or stephen hawking which only goes to show that The Developer can be a huge 8=============D sometimes


That's just about the stupidest **** I've read today.
Never post again.


You might want to adjust the gain on your sarcasm detector a smidge there, mate Blink

The fact he drew an ascii dong shows that it was in no way serious.

I didn't actually read past the second sentence.

But that damn sarcasm detector, I keep recalibrating it and it still never works properly.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#104 - 2012-12-27 12:53:28 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
Malcanis wrote:
Yep I agree about W-space being even worse than sov 0.0, but I didn't want to complicate the issue by discussing which of the 2 starving dogs fighting for scraps from the fat man's table was the skinniest Blink

Well W-space IS the frontier that wasn't meant to have large industrial capability. What it does have is the best PVE you can get anywhere, plus relative isolation and safety afforded by various mechanics and balanced only because there's no local.

I don't hear w-space residents clamoring for changes, I'm fairly sure they like it the way it is for the most part.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#105 - 2012-12-27 12:54:37 UTC
The haze of ignorance and the greasy mist of fallacious privilege defence is probably clogging up the intake.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#106 - 2012-12-27 12:58:21 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Yep I agree about W-space being even worse than sov 0.0, but I didn't want to complicate the issue by discussing which of the 2 starving dogs fighting for scraps from the fat man's table was the skinniest Blink

Well W-space IS the frontier that wasn't meant to have large industrial capability. What it does have is the best PVE you can get anywhere, plus relative isolation and safety afforded by various mechanics and balanced only because there's no local.

I don't hear w-space residents clamoring for changes, I'm fairly sure they like it the way it is for the most part.


I'm fairly sure that they'd like to be able to build their own T3s (as well as refit them) but maybe you're right, I don't know. Again, watch out for the ontology fallacy; it might just be that people who like to build stuff more complex than ammo simply completely avoid W-space. Therefore there are no people in W-space who like to build stuff. But that doesn't preclude the possibility that there are people who would like to be able to live self-sufficiently in W-space.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Frying Doom
#107 - 2012-12-27 12:59:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Yep I agree about W-space being even worse than sov 0.0, but I didn't want to complicate the issue by discussing which of the 2 starving dogs fighting for scraps from the fat man's table was the skinniest Blink

Well W-space IS the frontier that wasn't meant to have large industrial capability. What it does have is the best PVE you can get anywhere, plus relative isolation and safety afforded by various mechanics and balanced only because there's no local.

I don't hear w-space residents clamoring for changes, I'm fairly sure they like it the way it is for the most part.

I must remember that having the ability to face a huge number of Battleships that have the ability to completely cut off any avenue of escape while they destroy your home is classed as safe.

Actually wormhole residents would like POSs fixed, I think the reason they don't want CCP to touch wormhole space itself is more to do with their past performance on "fixing" areas and issues than a want for the area to be better, that and the fact that besides the POSs and crummy industrial capabilities wormhole space works about the best compared to the others. This however is more due to the type of people in Wormholes than the mechanics however.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#108 - 2012-12-27 12:59:35 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
destiny2 wrote:
If their going to nerf anything nerf null get rid of the tech moons, make it so people actually have to work for their isk


How much "work" did hi-sec players put in to get all those invulnerable stations which they can't be locked out of?

You don't get to complain about tech moons in null until stations in hi-sec cost you 20 bill a pop.

i spent 6 or 7 months of my and my corp activity to build outpost in 0.0. Mined, grinded alloys, lots of PI and stuff.
1 month after system was lost because alliance failed at war.

So what's your point again? you got lucky to get into right alliance so you have cake. i haven't and cake was taken from me. and there is difference. All the difference.

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#109 - 2012-12-27 13:02:29 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Yep I agree about W-space being even worse than sov 0.0, but I didn't want to complicate the issue by discussing which of the 2 starving dogs fighting for scraps from the fat man's table was the skinniest Blink

Well W-space IS the frontier that wasn't meant to have large industrial capability. What it does have is the best PVE you can get anywhere, plus relative isolation and safety afforded by various mechanics and balanced only because there's no local.

I don't hear w-space residents clamoring for changes, I'm fairly sure they like it the way it is for the most part.


I'm fairly sure that they'd like to be able to build their own T3s (as well as refit them) but maybe you're right, I don't know. Again, watch out for the ontology fallacy; it might just be that people who like to build stuff more complex than ammo simply completely avoid W-space. Therefore there are no people in W-space who like to build stuff. But that doesn't preclude the possibility that there are people who would like to be able to live self-sufficiently in W-space.

don't forget that they can only refine 75% at most of what they can mine, which is like... well... not that much.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Frying Doom
#110 - 2012-12-27 13:20:04 UTC
Grimpak wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Yep I agree about W-space being even worse than sov 0.0, but I didn't want to complicate the issue by discussing which of the 2 starving dogs fighting for scraps from the fat man's table was the skinniest Blink

Well W-space IS the frontier that wasn't meant to have large industrial capability. What it does have is the best PVE you can get anywhere, plus relative isolation and safety afforded by various mechanics and balanced only because there's no local.

I don't hear w-space residents clamoring for changes, I'm fairly sure they like it the way it is for the most part.


I'm fairly sure that they'd like to be able to build their own T3s (as well as refit them) but maybe you're right, I don't know. Again, watch out for the ontology fallacy; it might just be that people who like to build stuff more complex than ammo simply completely avoid W-space. Therefore there are no people in W-space who like to build stuff. But that doesn't preclude the possibility that there are people who would like to be able to live self-sufficiently in W-space.

don't forget that they can only refine 75% at most of what they can mine, which is like... well... not that much.

There is crap loads to mine in wormholes that you then have to compress and take to Hi-sec to use for manufacturing as well as the need for Hi-sec alts so you can mine the Hi-sec ores as moving huge volumes out of a WH is depressing at best.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#111 - 2012-12-27 13:25:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Vimsy Vortis
Decrease war declaration costs, increase NPC corp tax and and make it apply to LP as well as bounties then limit highsec POSes to medium and small towers and I think you'd go a long way to making highsec much more reasonable space.
Lexmana
#112 - 2012-12-27 13:33:43 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
destiny2 wrote:
If their going to nerf anything nerf null get rid of the tech moons, make it so people actually have to work for their isk


How much "work" did hi-sec players put in to get all those invulnerable stations which they can't be locked out of?

You don't get to complain about tech moons in null until stations in hi-sec cost you 20 bill a pop.

i spent 6 or 7 months of my and my corp activity to build outpost in 0.0. Mined, grinded alloys, lots of PI and stuff.
1 month after system was lost because alliance failed at war.

So what's your point again? you got lucky to get into right alliance so you have cake. i haven't and cake was taken from me. and there is difference. All the difference.

What are you saying there. That in a game like EVE there should not be winnings and losses? You lost, he won. Suck it up! Or are you one of those that feel entitled to a win no matter what?
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#113 - 2012-12-27 13:37:30 UTC
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
Decrease war declaration costs, increase NPC corp tax and and make it apply to LP as well as bounties then limit highsec POSes to medium and small towers and I think you'd go a long way to making highsec much more reasonable space.

it's all good and refreshing.

However would anyone describe to me why the hell CONCORD pays for killing rats in 0.0? Who the hell would even care about them infesting spaces which belongs to noone? Remove CONCORD payouts from killing NPC in 0.0 and it will be more reasonable space Cool

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Opertone
State War Academy
Caldari State
#114 - 2012-12-27 13:38:56 UTC
Some Rando wrote:
Peter Raptor wrote:
If CCP nerfs hisec, what have the hisec dwellers/industrialists got left

A lot of other space to do business in. High-sec should be left to new players and the little coddled children who can't handle conflict in a PvP game.



Lol what? Free space that is not contested? Are you in your own mind?

Every bit of null is occupied. And it can not support more people. Extra contenders will cause never ending wars and conflicts over resources and ownership.

This is why null can not fill. A super power will arise and kill all weaker parties.

This post sums up why the 'best' work with DCM inc.

WARP DRIVE makes eve boring

really - add warping align time 300% on gun aggression and eve becomes great again
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#115 - 2012-12-27 13:48:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Vimsy Vortis
March rabbit wrote:
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
Decrease war declaration costs, increase NPC corp tax and and make it apply to LP as well as bounties then limit highsec POSes to medium and small towers and I think you'd go a long way to making highsec much more reasonable space.

it's all good and refreshing.

However would anyone describe to me why the hell CONCORD pays for killing rats in 0.0? Who the hell would even care about them infesting spaces which belongs to noone? Remove CONCORD payouts from killing NPC in 0.0 and it will be more reasonable space Cool

It would be no skin off my nose. But unlike you my intention in posting was to suggest things that would make highsec less terrible not to make stupid rhetorical arguments to try and further the advantage that bad game design gives me personally.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#116 - 2012-12-27 13:50:45 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
destiny2 wrote:
If their going to nerf anything nerf null get rid of the tech moons, make it so people actually have to work for their isk


How much "work" did hi-sec players put in to get all those invulnerable stations which they can't be locked out of?

You don't get to complain about tech moons in null until stations in hi-sec cost you 20 bill a pop.

i spent 6 or 7 months of my and my corp activity to build outpost in 0.0. Mined, grinded alloys, lots of PI and stuff.
1 month after system was lost because alliance failed at war.

So what's your point again? you got lucky to get into right alliance so you have cake. i haven't and cake was taken from me. and there is difference. All the difference.


No, you just proved my point with an excellent example. That risk exists & should be compensated for.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#117 - 2012-12-27 13:53:41 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
Decrease war declaration costs, increase NPC corp tax and and make it apply to LP as well as bounties then limit highsec POSes to medium and small towers and I think you'd go a long way to making highsec much more reasonable space.

it's all good and refreshing.

However would anyone describe to me why the hell CONCORD pays for killing rats in 0.0? Who the hell would even care about them infesting spaces which belongs to noone? Remove CONCORD payouts from killing NPC in 0.0 and it will be more reasonable space Cool


Sure, that's an easy one: they're paying POD pilots to do the dirty work from them in areas they don't operate.

It's far more puzzling to me why they pay for killing rats in hi-sec when they could easily blow them to pieces themselves.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#118 - 2012-12-27 14:05:17 UTC
Some Rando wrote:
Peter Raptor wrote:
If CCP nerfs hisec, what have the hisec dwellers/industrialists got left

A lot of other space to do business in. High-sec should be left to new players and the little coddled children who can't handle conflict in a PvP game.

You reak of e-machismo and e-bravery. You must be, like, a dragon slayer in real life.

Down with the e-cowards! Am I doing it right?

Successfully doinitwrong™ since 2006.
Ginger Barbarella
#119 - 2012-12-27 14:07:55 UTC
I agree completely. The null sec sov holders need to be able to make more iskies, do metric crap-tons more industry on their own without all those onerous penalties, and anomalies should be spawning every minute.

Please do that, CCP. Hopefully it'll keep these losers out of high and low and shut them the hell up on the forums (since none of them, apparently, know how to post in CAOD).

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#120 - 2012-12-27 14:09:03 UTC
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
Some Rando wrote:
Peter Raptor wrote:
If CCP nerfs hisec, what have the hisec dwellers/industrialists got left

A lot of other space to do business in. High-sec should be left to new players and the little coddled children who can't handle conflict in a PvP game.

You reak of e-machismo and e-bravery. You must be, like, a dragon slayer in real life.

Down with the e-cowards! Am I doing it right?



Not bad, but not great. You should have also put in something about how you started playing in 2004 and, ideally, a complaint about the parlous state of solo PvP and a self-serving mock complaint about how so few people these days prefer not to fight in "blobs".

HTH

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016