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One possible solution to an age old problem!

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Kingpin Nil
Care-Bears UNITED
#181 - 2012-12-24 04:46:35 UTC
Akita T wrote:
Since the OP is not actually seriously discussing things we point out are a problem with any of his ideas and instead is just parroting the same old overused material, let's get down to his level and do something similar.

If you remove cloaked ships from local AND add a 15 sec timer for decloaking (which does make you show up in local before you actually decloak) if last cloaking session lasted more than 15 seconds, how can an AFK cloaker hurt you AT ALL anymore ?

He sure as hell can't make you afraid anymore (the only thing he was actually doing before while actually AFK).
You can still see him in local before he can do anything, and now you know he's not AFK anymore since he had to manually cut the cloak (before, you had no idea when he was AFK vs when he was ATK).
If he doesn't cloak (so is still showing up in local) you know you can find him and kill him (so no problem at all).
Essentially, he's pretty much the same thing as a logged-off person as long as he's actually AFK.

What problem would still remain AT ALL regarding AFK cloaking with that change ?
No, seriously, is there ANY problem left if you do that ? ANY sort of drawback for ANYBODY ? What exactly is it ?


again another attempt to misdirect the thread!

remember my first post?
Kingpin Nil
Care-Bears UNITED
#182 - 2012-12-24 04:50:09 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
And I know exactly why players afk cloak in a ratting system. Yeah, it's annoying. When that happens to me I move to another system. You don't see me crying on the boards about afk cloakers, because I think it's a valid tactic. It's psychological warfare.


maybe if you've read my first post its not about myself! this post was hop fully going to open up and help suggest a kind of medium between both sides of the fence! a thread where ideas and hopefully a compromise could be established!

its all too easy to throw around insults when you've nothing intelligent to say!
Kingpin Nil
Care-Bears UNITED
#183 - 2012-12-24 04:59:42 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Kingpin Nil wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Kingpin Nil wrote:

Irrelevant the issue is players going AFK! Why does this simple concept escape so many people?
No, not irrelevant. Because you need to understand WHY they go AFK and for what purpose. You even say yourself, that they are "used to disrupt null sec operations." You can't have it both ways, just because it doesn't suit your argument.

Answer me this. Whilst people are AFKing, what mechanic are they using to interact with you?



it's irrenlavent because my argument inst about reds making locals paranoid its about addressing being AFK
If it's irrelevant, then why do you talk about it?

Let's see what you said shall we.
Kingpin Nil wrote:
You and a lot of others seem to be missing the point entirely! its not about the old argument of not being able to mine or rat because a red is in local! its about being able to affect the game while you are not even behind your keyboard.

why are you logging into eve just to remain afk?
So if your gripe is about affecting the game whilst AFK, please tell us just what mechanic they are using to do just that?


I have said numerous times already your and others attempt to redirect the thread is getting beyond the joke now!

I'm not avoiding your line of questions! I'm only allowed certain quotes per day on these threads, please don't make the mistake of believing you're important enough to always warrant answers!

and what mechanic are they using again? well the fact their allowed to remain AFK while cloaked!
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#184 - 2012-12-24 08:12:04 UTC
AFK Cloaking is not a Problem, therefore it needs no Solution.
AFK Cloaking is an ad hoc Solution to the Problem of Local.
Remove Local, Problem solved.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#185 - 2012-12-24 09:37:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Kingpin Nil wrote:
I have said numerous times already your and others attempt to redirect the thread is getting beyond the joke now!

I'm not avoiding your line of questions! I'm only allowed certain quotes per day on these threads, please don't make the mistake of believing you're important enough to always warrant answers!

and what mechanic are they using again? well the fact their allowed to remain AFK while cloaked!

This is now about purely what you said. If you have faith in your idea and what you said, it's irrelevant where the questions come from.

Yes they remain AFK and cloaked, but you said:
Quote:
its about being able to affect the game while you are not even behind your keyboard.
How are they affecting people's gaming?

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Sean Parisi
Blackrise Vanguard
#186 - 2012-12-24 15:06:38 UTC
Kingpin Nil wrote:
Akita T wrote:
Kingpin Nil wrote:
Care to elaborate a bit further unfair?

While actually AFK, you can't do a damn thing to anybody else, so it's not fair others can easily do something to you if you took even the slightest of precautions while remaining AFK.
It is unfair that you get an advantage over a person who logged off instead of going AFK-cloaky when you both return, so THAT is the only thing that needs to be addressed.
AFK cloaking should be made as close as possible to actually logging off. Or conversely, logging off should be made as close as possible to AFK cloaking.

Kingpin Nil wrote:
but you were about to explain why players need to go AFK?

To make you afraid of them being there, even if you shouldn't.
Which they can't do if you can't see them at all.

Of course, there's also LEGITIMATE non-evil reasons to go AFK instead of logging off, and nobody should be punished nor rewarded for picking one above the other.



again why would you decide to go AFK? why would you get an advantage over someone that logged off as opposed to someone deciding to go AFK for a while?


Because I needed to take a ****.
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#187 - 2012-12-25 06:07:22 UTC
Kingpin Nil wrote:
Akita T wrote:
Since the OP is not actually seriously discussing things we point out are a problem with any of his ideas and instead is just parroting the same old overused material, let's get down to his level and do something similar.

If you remove cloaked ships from local AND add a 15 sec timer for decloaking (which does make you show up in local before you actually decloak) if last cloaking session lasted more than 15 seconds, how can an AFK cloaker hurt you AT ALL anymore ?

He sure as hell can't make you afraid anymore (the only thing he was actually doing before while actually AFK).
You can still see him in local before he can do anything, and now you know he's not AFK anymore since he had to manually cut the cloak (before, you had no idea when he was AFK vs when he was ATK).
If he doesn't cloak (so is still showing up in local) you know you can find him and kill him (so no problem at all).
Essentially, he's pretty much the same thing as a logged-off person as long as he's actually AFK.

What problem would still remain AT ALL regarding AFK cloaking with that change ?
No, seriously, is there ANY problem left if you do that ? ANY sort of drawback for ANYBODY ? What exactly is it ?


again another attempt to misdirect the thread!
remember my first post?

The bad solution to the wrong problem, claimed to be contrary to CCP's wishes when it clearly wasn't ?
Yeah, sure I do remember it.
Two wrongs don't make a right, and even more wrongs together still sure as heck don't either.

A person while AFK is not actually a direct problem, it can't possibly BE a direct problem, he's NOT THERE by definition.
There are plenty of good reasons to want to go AFK and not log off (and they were listed), there are also reasons why you might end up going AFK a lot longer than you expected (and your comments to that were as offensive as pointless), there are plenty of OTHER ways in the game right now that allow you to meaningfully affect it while AFK or even while logged off (some were listed) which are NOT shunned by CCP.
Basically, there is absolutely nothing of your initial claim of AFK cloaking being something that needs to be removed left in there.

Again, a person while AFK is not actually a direct problem, it can't possibly BE a direct problem, he's NOT THERE by definition.
An "AFK cloaker" while actually AFK is only an indirect problem, insomuch as it's primarily a terror weapon.
The same "AFK cloaker" also gets an unfair advantage whenever he decides to come back to the game actively.

You are trying to "fix" something that's not broken - going AFK while cloaked.
You should instead try to fix the ability to use THAT as either a terror weapon or as an advantage when coming back.
Your proposal might do that to some degree, but at the same time, it breaks other things that don't need breaking in the first place.
The alternative I proposed directly addresses the actual problems, while not breaking anything else. If anything, it adds something arguably good.

Akita T evewiki profile | | | Build your own EVE-ready PC
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#188 - 2012-12-25 16:55:25 UTC
All details being considered and weighted... It seems the answer to AFK Cloaking's terror aspect is to ignore it while they are cloaked.
(A cloaked vessel not being capable of inflicting damage directly)

As it is not currently possible to evaluate threat levels properly under the current system, I suggest we upgrade local to exclude vessels which are not capable of interacting with ships and objects directly.

For balance, I would deny these classifications from accessing local at all. Let them be sent chat information in a version of local missing the pilot roster, no free intel for them. (Fully delayed local for all pilots present but not listed)

The vessels which should fit this classification for full local exclusion I described:

Vessels within the shields of a POS (They cannot target or fire, AFK POS items are misleading)
Vessels docked at an outpost (They cannot target or fire, AFK Outpost items are misleading)
Vessels cloaked in a system (They cannot target or fire, AFK Cloaked items are misleading)

Upgrading local intel with improved relevancy in this manner will benefit players wanting to know the actual active players present.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#189 - 2012-12-26 14:12:02 UTC  |  Edited by: TheGunslinger42
Kingpin Nil wrote:
Hey guys I know this topic has been done to death but between the tears and the anger allow me to add my two cents worth!
AKF cloaker’s love’em! hate’em! Live in a worm-hole don’t care? But are they here to stay?

We’re all aware of CCP’S stance on playing eve while AFK! Botters, warp to zero at the gate exploits all punishable offensives! So why are AFK cloakers getting a free ride?

Now I'm fully aware of the arguments from both camps on this issue! I love playing eve just as much as you and don’t want changes set to ruin anyone’s gaming experience! So I’ll attempt to resolve this annoying issue!
Cloaks are used for many reasons ranging from reconnaissance to ganking or just plain saving your arse! But were they intended for going hours, days or even sometime weeks while AFK?

So what is there purpose! Well ask anyone in null sec mining or ratting and they’ll tell you! While docked up of course! But to the uninitiated there used to disrupt null sec operations! Recovering from loses during days of battle is a big issue in null and there’s plenty of resources to make it worth your while! Hence AFK cloakers.

And now for the solution!

Without destroying cloaking altogether! I propose a POS structure (one per system) to be built only by those with sovereignty and to be fuelled via the same POS fuel that keeps the shields up to be used to detect cloaks. This structure will be on a timer (one hour for example) and once activated will consume 90 precent of your POS fuel! (Or a given amount) This will eliminate spamming the detect button and will allow the cloakers to move to another safe spot with time to spare!
So as not to give the cloaker too much of a disadvantage! The cloaker will be made aware of this device once activated and will allow him or her to move along! This will eliminate the AFK cloaker and will stop others from spamming the detect button given the fuel and time restrictions!

Please if you have any constructive feedback you’re more than welcome to add to my suggestions! I’ll be forwarding this to CCP once I'm satisfied it passed the player test.


typical nullbear horsecrap. There is no issue with cloaks, changing mechanics or adding things to allow you to detect or prevent or whatever cloaks is horribly horribly broken, anyone with a proper understanding of the mechanics and the real issue (infallible, free, instant intel from local) understands why such things are horribly broken. Stop. Suggesting. Them.
RoAnnon
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#190 - 2012-12-26 22:20:13 UTC
I like the way the OP keeps referring to AFK pilots as "players". If a pilot is AFK, he's not playing, he's either floating AFK or he's botting. Botting is bad. Floating AFK is acceptable. So is cloaking. Cloaking AFK in Jita is evidently not frowned upon, so this issue has a locational aspect to it that shouldn't be applied to a game-wide mechanic.

No solution is needed for a "problem" that actually doesn't exist.

So, you're a bounty hunter. No, that ain't it at all. Then what are you? I'm a bounty hunter.

Broadcast4Reps

Eve Vegas 2015 Pub Crawl Group 9

Houston EVE Meet
Kingpin Nil
Care-Bears UNITED
#191 - 2012-12-27 05:45:45 UTC
Undeadenemy wrote:
First off, as the thread title suggests, I am in favor of the cloak mechanics as they currently stand, just want to put that out there. That said, here is a solution that I believe is amicable to both sides of the debate:

Cloak Jamming Array

-The Cloak Jamming Array is a POS module that becomes available at Sovereignty Level 3.
-It requires a Cloak Jamming Array Upgrade to be installed in the IHUB of the system.
-The upkeep costs for this upgrade costs 600,000,000 ISK per 30 day period.
-The Cloak Jamming Array takes 1 hour to online.

Effect:

The Cloak Jamming Array prohibits the usage of ANY cloaking devices in system, as long as it is online. That means FRIENDLY and ENEMY. If an alliance decides to install this module, NO ONE will be able to cloak in the system.

My Argument:

-We've heard the cries for years about AFK cloakers and the psychological effect they have. Personally, I think this is a perfectly valid tactic and effect, regardless of whether or not it rewards "doing stuff" vs "not doing stuff." That said, there is currently no counter to this activity, except for catching the cloaker moving between systems or during an attack on a friendly.

-The Cloak Jamming Array would disable the use of cloaks for ALL PARTIES, and its long online time would prohibit leaving it offline until needed.

-The tactical advantage of a Cloak Jamming Array comes at a tactical price: friendlies cannot cloak either, meaning no cloaking titans, haulers, carriers, super carriers, probe ships, T3s, stealth bombers, recons, battleships, or anything else for that matter for ANYONE.

-The upkeep cost of the module makes it prohibitively expensive to deploy widely, usage would probably be limited to very select systems, in the same way Cynosural Jammers are today. Even if cost is not an issue, the tactical disadvantage to the defenders own alliance will limit deployment.

Conclusion:

As I stated in the introduction, I have no problem with current mechanics with regard to cloaking. This idea was more born from talking with people that did, and finding a solution that I believe is fair to both sides. For example, when a POS in your system is being attacked by a large battleship gang, and you and 5 of your friends only have stealth bombers to defend with, you might wish you hadn't installed the Cloak Jamming Array. Alternatives to this plan include: increasing the online time to 5 hours, or rather than a POS module, simply installing the upgrade creates the effect, and it cannot be done away with without getting rid of the upgrade.

Thoughts? (And rather than just saying "NO!" explain why.)
Kingpin Nil
Care-Bears UNITED
#192 - 2012-12-27 05:53:31 UTC
"Getting rid of local is a stupid idea, mabe removeing it from 0.0 systems with no sov in, mabe. Also, removeing local will just cause loads of the ratters you want to kill fleeing to empire and start on lvl 4 missions.
But cloak should still get nerfed, theres is no reason for people being able to cloak up and go afk. Atleast make it so that cloak uses cap and has a timer, so lets say after 20 mins it deactivates and you need 50% cap to reactivate it... w/e... "

-Greymoon Avatar
Kingpin Nil
Care-Bears UNITED
#193 - 2012-12-27 05:55:08 UTC
Mole Guy wrote:
there is no checks and balances for it. like in eve, everything has a counter.

peeps talk about system decloaking, which come to think about, it might be a lil much.

but what about an advanced skill of scanning?

make it a higher ranking scanning skill. anyone in system actively using a cloaking device emits high gravity (or electronic, take yer pic) emmissions (bending of light around your ship).

what about a new scanner that needs alot of training and alot of power/cpu that scans for this signature?
it could require all 5's in scanning and have an 8x training multiplier. it would get say a bonus per level and even at maxed out skillz, it would be VERY difficult to track one down (maybe 10% at best maxed out). so at rank one, you might have a 2% chance which means you will be trying all day to land on someone and decloak them. you could be off by 2002 meters and it would not decloak them (2k to decloak).

maybe a new cruiser/bc sized ship or greater would be needed and it would be costly. lots of skills involved.

there would be a way to counter it. just cloak and move forward. when someone locks you, they will show up to where u were and not decloak u.
but if one forgets and just cloaks up...maybe, just maybe they will be pouced.

it would give those who want a way to find the afk cloakers a "chance" (even if its a lotto chance) to find their nemesis and assist him in a free ride home.
Kingpin Nil
Care-Bears UNITED
#194 - 2012-12-27 05:58:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Kingpin Nil
This topic might be a bit controversial, but in a game that really doesn't afford safety to anyone, not even HighSec, cloaked ships are untouchable. This is my proposal:

- Regular combat probes can't detect cloked ships. Should be a new probe. T2 Combat Probes anyone?
*If T2 probes are too much of a problem since we might need T2 Probe Launcher as well, Sisters Launcher and Sisters Combat Probe will do.*

- Should atleast require Astrometric Rangefinding to V.

I'm pretty sure those of you whole like to just AFK cloaked in a system camping, might be opposed to this. This is a simple way to counter those AFK'ers in a system, primarly in 0.0 where everyone is always on the lookout for neuts who might be scouting or just plain AFK'ing to keep everyone on edge. We currently have some Neuts around our space that are just cloaked and floating in space. Been around for a few days tbh.

If anyone has a better idea let me hear it.

quoted
Kingpin Nil
Care-Bears UNITED
#195 - 2012-12-27 06:01:36 UTC
Originally by: Allestin Villimar
So I've been hanging out in 0.0 for a couple of months now. When there are enemy fleets in the area, we engage them, blow each other up, and it's fun.

But problems arise when we get some random ****hat in a stealth bomber. He'll come into the system, get through bubbles easily by instantly cloaking, and then they can warp off into whatever safe spot and afk for hours. After that, just camp a jump bridge, gate, or look for an anomaly, then blow them up and warp off again. Due to the high damage of bombs and torpedoes, and the undetectable nature of cloaking, there is no real risk to this tactic.

Since EVE is all about risk, I'm proposing three things:
1) Cloaks will only auto-cycle for 5-10 minutes. There is no risk to you if you're actually there since you can just reactivate it, but it'll stop the people who afk for hours at a safe spot. At the same time, the cycle lasts long enough that you can go make a sandwich or use the bathroom without worrying too much.

2) Cloak detection probes. These will have a max detection range of 5-10 AU, and again, won't be much of a threat to people who are there and scanning for them - you can see they have a probe out and you can warp off.

3) Anti-cloak bubbles. This provides a 30 km bubble that de-cloaks any ship inside of it, but can't be used within 100 km of jump gates. Downside is significantly increased lock time for the ships within the bubble, which gives people a chance to get away. I'm debating on what kind of ships this should be fitted on (it wouldn't be a deployable), probably either a heavy interdictor (can't use the warp bubble while it's up) or a heavy assault cruiser.

My goal is not to make low/null sec travel more dangerous, just to make stealth bombing a riskier endeavor than it currently is.
Kingpin Nil
Care-Bears UNITED
#196 - 2012-12-27 06:05:12 UTC
It’s fairly obvious from the above quotes that a lot of players and more have a problem with AFK cloaks and a lot of players have a problem with changing the mechanics a little with cloaking! While AFK at least myself and others are suggesting a happy medium between both sides!
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#197 - 2012-12-27 07:02:58 UTC
You can not just affect one AFK style, every few min units let's shut off all mining lasers, to prevent players from afk mining, deactivate all ship modules to prevent afk anything at all, and eject all ships and pods into space to prevent afk station sitting.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#198 - 2012-12-27 09:53:19 UTC
Kingpin Nil wrote:
its about being able to affect the game while you are not even behind your keyboard.
How are they affecting people's gaming? It's an easy question. Just how are they affecting it?

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#199 - 2012-12-27 11:48:09 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Kingpin Nil wrote:
its about being able to affect the game while you are not even behind your keyboard.
How are they affecting people's gaming? It's an easy question. Just how are they affecting it?

It would seem that people are affecting the game more by, afk mining, and afk mission running, than they are by afk cloaking.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#200 - 2012-12-27 14:38:45 UTC
Kingpin Nil wrote:
"Getting rid of local is a stupid idea, mabe removeing it from 0.0 systems with no sov in, mabe. Also, removeing local will just cause loads of the ratters you want to kill fleeing to empire and start on lvl 4 missions.
But cloak should still get nerfed, theres is no reason for people being able to cloak up and go afk. Atleast make it so that cloak uses cap and has a timer, so lets say after 20 mins it deactivates and you need 50% cap to reactivate it... w/e... "

-Greymoon Avatar

Still laughing over the absurd logic being used here.

The premise, which seems to imply that high sec bears are really the same mindset as null bears..., at best only works with a fraction of the null pilots implied.
Specifically, the ones who are extremely risk averse, and only in null by exploiting the capacity of local chat to provide absolute safety with it's absolute warnings.
They SHOULD be in high sec already. They have shown no real interest in accepting the risks intended to be present in null, as evidenced by their absolute avoidance of any they can identify.
They seem to believe null is intended to provide perfect early warnings, so they can rat and mine with impunity against any threat.

THAT is why they show up on forums pleading to make the big bad null pvp'er go away, with their cloaky / hot-dropping evil ways.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...