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Mining Foreman Mindlinks
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Ribaldry
#1 - 2012-12-23 00:11:13 UTC
So, what are your thoughts on the mindlinks and possible OGB changes for the future? Have you folks liquidated yet?

I'm assuming with the possible future "off grid boosting" changes that CCP will address the source of the mindlinks to make them more available (as they're currently only available from the L4 storyline Shipyard Theft which has quite an array of possible implants as a reward).

I luckily invested in mindlinks a few months before the new L4 storylines came out. Thoughts?

.
Razor Rocker
Super Mother Fan Club
#2 - 2012-12-23 00:19:44 UTC
has CCP ever disclosed there will be changes to off-grid boosting? I'm genuinely curious, as I've only heard speculation from players with very minimal dev involvement.
Ribaldry
#3 - 2012-12-23 00:22:47 UTC
Not to my knowledge.

.
Dave Stark
#4 - 2012-12-23 07:17:34 UTC
i'd like to think that you're more likely to see a change in the price of boosting ships rather than implants.
Zoltan Lazar
#5 - 2012-12-23 07:51:26 UTC
Razor Rocker wrote:
has CCP ever disclosed there will be changes to off-grid boosting? I'm genuinely curious, as I've only heard speculation from players with very minimal dev involvement.


Do you not read any of the balancing blogs? They've stated that one of their big goals is to examine the balancing of all ships, especially off grid boosting mechanics, especially as to how command ships differ from tech three ships. It's most likely that off grid boosting will still exit, but because they're going to nerf tech three's ability to do it, fewer people will bother with OGBs.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#6 - 2012-12-23 10:24:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Ribaldry wrote:
Not to my knowledge.

Dev Blog - Back to the Balancing Future - Command and Conquer (last section of blog)
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
As a side note, as we announced a while ago, we are not pleased by having Warfare Links work outside the battlefield zone, and will be investigating options to move them on grid. Command and Tech3 ships providing that much of an advantage should commit to an engagement instead of being safely parked inside a POS bubble.

http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=73530

CCP Fozzie wrote:
So I want to make clear that we don't have a timeline for when pushing links ongrid will be possible. It won't be happening at the same time as these other listed changes.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2145912#post2145912

CCP Fozzie wrote:
Yup it's something we're putting a lot of thought into. Moving links ongrid has significant technical blockers at the moment so it's not coming anytime soon, and between now and that bright sunny someday we'll spend a lot of time consulting with miners to make sure gameplay stays interesting and useful.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2145763#post2145763
Dave Stark
#7 - 2012-12-23 11:19:55 UTC
note how yitterbium says "Warfare links", possibly meaning foreman links won't be effected by this change, and off grid rorq boosting will be left alone.

still, bit of a **** since i spent the time training t2 siege links for my orca pilot so he could equip the shield resist link, oh well, might have to dig out the old mining foreman capacitor link.
Ribaldry
#8 - 2012-12-23 15:55:35 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
note how yitterbium says "Warfare links", possibly meaning foreman links won't be effected by this change, and off grid rorq boosting will be left alone.


I was going to say mining foreman links are under "Warfare links" in the market, but I just checked an they have their own group now. This seems to add weight to your argument.

I guess it's still too early to tell if they're going to address the supply side of mindlinks.

Thanks for the info.

.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#9 - 2012-12-23 20:21:08 UTC
Ribaldry wrote:
I guess it's still too early to tell if they're going to address the supply side of mindlinks.

I only posted about on-grid boosting. There were posts about the elimination of mindlinks, or at least not making them as essential.

CCP Fozzie wrote:
So about mindlinks..

  • The fact that they are such a huge portion of the effectiveness of a booster isn't something we like
  • The fact that people are forced to use multiple jump clones or pop a new expensive implant every time they want to switch link types isn't something we like
  • The fact that they make the use of multiple gang link types at once so much worse isn't something we like
  • The exact way to deal with these problems isn't something we have hammered out yet, but we'll keep you updated
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2153406#post2153406

CCP Fozzie wrote:
Normal implants give a small enough bonus that you may be incentivized to use the right clone with the right ship but you're not crippled if you don't. We don't want committing to a jumpclone to lock you out of 3/4 of your role options for the duration.

So mindlinks providing a modest bonus would be fine, but the bonus is too big a part of the overal picture at the moment, we'd like to move some of that bonus elsewhere.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2153564#post2153564

CCP Fozzie wrote:
Shifting parts of the bonuses from the ganglinks to the other skills and bonuses is an option we have been considering but we have not made a decision there yet. It's likely that the gang link stuff will not all show up in one patch.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2145790#post2145790
Dave Stark
#10 - 2012-12-23 20:24:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
to be honest, for the cost i think the bonus is about right.

if they're going to reduce the bonus on them, they need to increase the supply to make the cost equivalent to the bonus.
on the other hand, if they do make them cheaper and worse, i'd be more likely to use a clone with a foreman implant in more dangerous territory, i.e. 0.0, and wormholes etc.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#11 - 2012-12-24 10:24:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Dave stark wrote:
to be honest, for the cost i think the bonus is about right.

All the other hardwirings in EVE are 1% to 6% bonus, and mindlinks are 15% + 50% which makes them mandatory, not optional.

Now, I could see making a set with such bonuses, but for a single implant it is a bit much.

LP stores would be a sensible way to increase supply.
Dave Stark
#12 - 2012-12-24 10:36:20 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
to be honest, for the cost i think the bonus is about right.

All the other hardwirings in EVE are 1% to 6% bonus, and mindlinks are 15% + 50% which makes them mandatory, not optional.

Now, I could see making a set with such bonuses, but for a single implant it is a bit much.

LP stores would be a sensible way to increase supply.


i'm not sure you can really compare it like that. i mean, the boost to yield is 5% just like other implants. the bonus to links requires a hell of a lot of investment in other skills and ships etc, so generally 5% vs 5% it's identical. the difference is "if you bothered to train x skill and fly y ship with z modules" you get extras. i think this is a nice reward for investing time in that.

it's really a hard thing to compare directly.
Freighdee Katt
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2012-12-24 13:59:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Freighdee Katt
Dave stark wrote:
note how yitterbium says "Warfare links", possibly meaning foreman links won't be effected by this change, and off grid rorq boosting will be left alone.

Maybe. But he also ends with "we'll spend a lot of time consulting with miners to make sure gameplay stays interesting and useful," in a sentence where he starts talking about how OGB will take some work and is not coming right soon. That makes it sound like all OGB is going away, including the mining boost. So ORCA's won't be able to sit in a POS shield and boost either, which will kind of suck for your friendly neighborhood perma-booster. It will also mean that if the ORCA is hauling there will be a whole lot more boost loss since you no longer lose it just while the ORCA is docked but also while it's warping to and fro. If that's the case, then real boosting is going to mean having a minimum of two ORCAs in belt at all times to avoid the dropouts.

EvE is supposed to suck.  Wait . . . what was the question?
Dave Stark
#14 - 2012-12-24 14:19:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Freighdee Katt wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
note how yitterbium says "Warfare links", possibly meaning foreman links won't be effected by this change, and off grid rorq boosting will be left alone.

Maybe. But he also ends with " we'll spend a lot of time consulting with miners to make sure gameplay stays interesting and useful," in a sentence where he starts talking about how OGB will take some work and is not coming right soon. That makes it sound like all OGB is going away, including the mining boost. So ORCA's won't be able to sit in a POS shield and boost either, which will kind of suck for your friendly neighborhood perma-booster. It will also mean that if the ORCA is hauling there will be a whole lot more boost loss since you no longer lose it while the ORCA is docked but also while it's warping to and fro. If that's the case, then real boosting is going to mean having a minimum of two ORCAs in belt at all times to avoid the dropouts.


you can quite adequately warp, dock, unload, undock, return to belt, without an interruption in bonuses.
trust me, i do it all day long.
the only issue i have is occasionally losing a locked target due to information warfare bonus vanishing when i dock, but that doesn't stop my laser.
Freighdee Katt
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2012-12-26 18:02:17 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
ou can quite adequately warp, dock, unload, undock, return to belt, without an interruption in bonuses.
trust me, i do it all day long. the only issue i have is occasionally losing a locked target due to information warfare bonus vanishing when i dock, but that doesn't stop my laser.

I'm not clear on whether you're talking about the miner or the hauler warping. If the ORCA is undocked and in space (currently), then anyone in fleet in the same system will get its bonuses. The warfare links, for whatever reason, will turn off when you enter warp, but you can turn them back on and they will continue to run while you warp.

The ORCA and pilot do not deliver bonuses to anyone while the ship is docked, which is shown both by the fact that the red X comes up in the fleet window indicating no boost, and by the stats you observe on the Hulk's modules.

It's unlikely you lose much for the brief period that the ORCA is docked, since the main boost is to cycle time, and it's not clear anyway whether any loss of that boost would make a cycle in progress any shorter or longer.

However, the point of the post was that now, as things currently work, the ORCA does deliver the bonuses as long as it is undocked anywhere in system. The problem is that if all "off grid boosting" goes away, then it won't do that any more. With no more OGB, you would only receive boosts from an ORCA that is on grid with your miner, which means not only do you lose the brief downtime while its docked to unload, but also the much longer period of time it takes to align and warp back to you.

The loss of the dock / undock time is trivial, but the loss of travel time as well will be a noticeable productivity hit if one ORCA is supporting two or more Hulks without a second ORCA to trade off, ensuring one is always on grid.

The question is whether OGB is going away just for combat boosts or for mining as well. CCP's postings so far make it sound like maybe all OGB is going away, and that makes a certain amount of sense based on the reason they gave for the change (making you risk the ship to get the reward of the boost rather than relying on a carefree POS-camping booster).

EvE is supposed to suck.  Wait . . . what was the question?
Immortis Vexx
Onyx Moon Industries
#16 - 2012-12-26 22:59:35 UTC
Freighdee Katt wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
ou can quite adequately warp, dock, unload, undock, return to belt, without an interruption in bonuses.
trust me, i do it all day long. the only issue i have is occasionally losing a locked target due to information warfare bonus vanishing when i dock, but that doesn't stop my laser.

I'm not clear on whether you're talking about the miner or the hauler warping. If the ORCA is undocked and in space (currently), then anyone in fleet in the same system will get its bonuses. The warfare links, for whatever reason, will turn off when you enter warp, but you can turn them back on and they will continue to run while you warp.

The ORCA and pilot do not deliver bonuses to anyone while the ship is docked, which is shown both by the fact that the red X comes up in the fleet window indicating no boost, and by the stats you observe on the Hulk's modules.

It's unlikely you lose much for the brief period that the ORCA is docked, since the main boost is to cycle time, and it's not clear anyway whether any loss of that boost would make a cycle in progress any shorter or longer.

However, the point of the post was that now, as things currently work, the ORCA does deliver the bonuses as long as it is undocked anywhere in system. The problem is that if all "off grid boosting" goes away, then it won't do that any more. With no more OGB, you would only receive boosts from an ORCA that is on grid with your miner, which means not only do you lose the brief downtime while its docked to unload, but also the much longer period of time it takes to align and warp back to you.

The loss of the dock / undock time is trivial, but the loss of travel time as well will be a noticeable productivity hit if one ORCA is supporting two or more Hulks without a second ORCA to trade off, ensuring one is always on grid.

The question is whether OGB is going away just for combat boosts or for mining as well. CCP's postings so far make it sound like maybe all OGB is going away, and that makes a certain amount of sense based on the reason they gave for the change (making you risk the ship to get the reward of the boost rather than relying on a carefree POS-camping booster).



The sentence in bold is false. You cannot activate links while in warp. The only time that you will notice a problem/change to the miner is when the mining cycle on a laser completes and the boosts are off. Some of the bonuses are calculated at the beginning of the cycle and some at the end. This info is based purely on observation and some testing I've done.

Beginning of cycle
Range
Cap usage
Cycle time


End of Cycle
Mining amount
Range (Note below)


Range seems to be looked at twice during the mining cycle as if to confirm what was true at the beginning of the cycle. If the cycle ends while the boost is off and you suddenly have insufficient range, the mined amount is lost.

Dave Stark
#17 - 2012-12-27 00:56:20 UTC
Immortis Vexx wrote:
Freighdee Katt wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
ou can quite adequately warp, dock, unload, undock, return to belt, without an interruption in bonuses.
trust me, i do it all day long. the only issue i have is occasionally losing a locked target due to information warfare bonus vanishing when i dock, but that doesn't stop my laser.

I'm not clear on whether you're talking about the miner or the hauler warping. If the ORCA is undocked and in space (currently), then anyone in fleet in the same system will get its bonuses. The warfare links, for whatever reason, will turn off when you enter warp, but you can turn them back on and they will continue to run while you warp.

The ORCA and pilot do not deliver bonuses to anyone while the ship is docked, which is shown both by the fact that the red X comes up in the fleet window indicating no boost, and by the stats you observe on the Hulk's modules.

It's unlikely you lose much for the brief period that the ORCA is docked, since the main boost is to cycle time, and it's not clear anyway whether any loss of that boost would make a cycle in progress any shorter or longer.

However, the point of the post was that now, as things currently work, the ORCA does deliver the bonuses as long as it is undocked anywhere in system. The problem is that if all "off grid boosting" goes away, then it won't do that any more. With no more OGB, you would only receive boosts from an ORCA that is on grid with your miner, which means not only do you lose the brief downtime while its docked to unload, but also the much longer period of time it takes to align and warp back to you.

The loss of the dock / undock time is trivial, but the loss of travel time as well will be a noticeable productivity hit if one ORCA is supporting two or more Hulks without a second ORCA to trade off, ensuring one is always on grid.

The question is whether OGB is going away just for combat boosts or for mining as well. CCP's postings so far make it sound like maybe all OGB is going away, and that makes a certain amount of sense based on the reason they gave for the change (making you risk the ship to get the reward of the boost rather than relying on a carefree POS-camping booster).



The sentence in bold is false. You cannot activate links while in warp. The only time that you will notice a problem/change to the miner is when the mining cycle on a laser completes and the boosts are off. Some of the bonuses are calculated at the beginning of the cycle and some at the end. This info is based purely on observation and some testing I've done.

Beginning of cycle
Range
Cap usage
Cycle time


End of Cycle
Mining amount
Range (Note below)


Range seems to be looked at twice during the mining cycle as if to confirm what was true at the beginning of the cycle. If the cycle ends while the boost is off and you suddenly have insufficient range, the mined amount is lost.


confirming i have noticed the same as you. no checks are done mid-cycle, that i have noticed, only when the lasers end and start.
Styth spiting
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2012-12-27 01:42:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Styth spiting
Ribaldry wrote:
So, what are your thoughts on the mindlinks and possible OGB changes for the future? Have you folks liquidated yet?

I'm assuming with the possible future "off grid boosting" changes that CCP will address the source of the mindlinks to make them more available (as they're currently only available from the L4 storyline Shipyard Theft which has quite an array of possible implants as a reward).

I luckily invested in mindlinks a few months before the new L4 storylines came out. Thoughts?



The mining foremen mindlink will not be affected (the demand for them) by off grid boosting changes. Since the most of the time (well highsec anyways) the boosting orca will be in belt anyways so even if they did make these speculated changes the mindlink will stay just as expensive.

Hell, it will most likely go up in value as less and less people do the L4 security missions to try getting the storyline that drops the mindlinks.