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proposed command ship rebalance
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Mole Guy
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2012-12-20 21:23:12 UTC
the new command ships are going to be the shyt!

we need to keep in mind tho, they need to be battlefield power houses with a touch of links and not sacrificing their dps to add links.

they really need 3 (or 4) x2 damage weapons and 3 links (or how ever u guys wanna lay it out). but with the damnation fit having to give up weapon slots to fit links isnt good. which ever we choose to fly needs to have tank and dps first off. then the choice of links to support fleet ops.

if we have 7 highs, 4 x2 damage weapons and 3 links would mount right up. you wouldnt have to change the slots, just bonuses.
i guarantee they would be seen on the battlefield after that. they r the topdog battlecruiser, they need topdog output.. =)

khanid ships rule!
Sigras
Conglomo
#2 - 2012-12-20 23:25:13 UTC
i disagree, the new command ships should be able to choose between a combat DPS role or a booster role, not have both at once
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#3 - 2012-12-21 00:45:12 UTC
Sigras wrote:
i disagree, the new command ships should be able to choose between a combat DPS role or a booster role, not have both at once

This only holds true if they out DPS a T1 BC in a DPS role.
So a role bonus of something like +25% DPS above & beyond standard BC's is probably needed.
That means they are somewhere close to the DPS of a T1 BC if they fit links, so a small gang isn't sacrificing a DPS slot to have one in the gang, and also means that there is a reason to bring CS's solely for a DPS role, so not every CS you see will be boosting.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2012-12-21 01:11:40 UTC
Sigras wrote:
i disagree, the new command ships should be able to choose between a combat DPS role or a booster role, not have both at once

This is correct, we dont need the rebalanced command ships to become uber wtf i win ships

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#5 - 2012-12-21 01:35:25 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Sigras wrote:
i disagree, the new command ships should be able to choose between a combat DPS role or a booster role, not have both at once

This is correct, we dont need the rebalanced command ships to become uber wtf i win ships


+1
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#6 - 2012-12-21 02:21:22 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Sigras wrote:
i disagree, the new command ships should be able to choose between a combat DPS role or a booster role, not have both at once

This is correct, we dont need the rebalanced command ships to become uber wtf i win ships



aaand +1

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
Otto Weston
Pod Goo Extraction Agency
#7 - 2012-12-21 02:40:07 UTC
TBH, the command ships are relatively ok atm. The Field command ones seem fine, apart from the Nighthawk, that needs some love.

I only think the fleet command ships need to provide better bonuses than the T3 command strategic cruisers. Also the gallente command ships need to have a more useful warfare link group. That would help the Eos a lot. I just really hope they don't touch my Damnation.... In fact, I'll probably quit EVE if my Damnation loses any EHP. (YES I LOVE THE DAMNATION THAT MUCH). 

Everything's Air Droppable at least once.
Mole Guy
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2012-12-21 17:03:33 UTC
having the same fire power and 3 links isnt a game changer.
if you want me on the field traveling with my group, i better have the fire support to defend myself if attacked. having a ship that does nothing else but run links is a waste of time. having a ship that can put out some pain AND support the fleet is something worth wasting alot of time training to fly.
4 missiles on the damnation is a waste. you allow us to keep our 6 weapon output and still help everyone else and that a winning ship.

yes i know titans have to saccrifice guns to get links, but titans also have alot of weapon slots (for those who would argue about other ships).
Ethan Revenant
Adhocracy Incorporated
Adhocracy
#9 - 2012-12-21 19:18:57 UTC
Otto Weston wrote:
TBH, the command ships are relatively ok atm. The Field command ones seem fine, apart from the Nighthawk, that needs some love.

I only think the fleet command ships need to provide better bonuses than the T3 command strategic cruisers. Also the gallente command ships need to have a more useful warfare link group. That would help the Eos a lot. I just really hope they don't touch my Damnation.... In fact, I'll probably quit EVE if my Damnation loses any EHP. (YES I LOVE THE DAMNATION THAT MUCH).



Preach it, spacebrother. I will cry so many internet tears if they take away the tank bonus for a failbonus to HML damage.

Mole Guy wrote:
having the same fire power and 3 links isnt a game changer.
if you want me on the field traveling with my group, i better have the fire support to defend myself if attacked. having a ship that does nothing else but run links is a waste of time. having a ship that can put out some pain AND support the fleet is something worth wasting alot of time training to fly.
4 missiles on the damnation is a waste. you allow us to keep our 6 weapon output and still help everyone else and that a winning ship.

yes i know titans have to saccrifice guns to get links, but titans also have alot of weapon slots (for those who would argue about other ships).


The fleet command ships are support ships. The point is that you are sacrificing DPS for command links to make your fleet better, and your fleet takes care of you (though if you're in a fleet command ship, that's hardly necessary). Recon ships, logistics, and other support ships make the same trade. They fill a role that is not DPS to make the fleet more powerful.

If you want a command ship with DPS, just fly a field command ship.
Sigras
Conglomo
#10 - 2012-12-22 17:55:39 UTC
The point of a command ship, or a support ship in general is that its a trade-off; you bring one ship that makes everyone a bit better but isnt so great by itself in order to make the fleet as a whole better.

If you take away the trade off aspect, there becomes no reason NOT to have a booster with your gang . . . Now does that mean that fleet boosters shouldnt be able to do anything but give gang bonuses? not at all; who wants to fly such a boring ship?

I think that command ships serving as fleet boosters should have about 300 DPS but with a strong tank (on the scale of the damnation)

The difficulty CCP is going to have is making the command ships fun to fly while keeping them from being totally overpowered.

TL;DR
There should be a trade off with fleet boosters IE there should be a valid reason not to bring one in certain circumstances
Felsusguy
Panopticon Engineering
#11 - 2012-12-23 03:18:46 UTC
Sigras wrote:
The point of a command ship, or a support ship in general is that its a trade-off; you bring one ship that makes everyone a bit better but isnt so great by itself in order to make the fleet as a whole better.

Perhaps, but you have to realize that if you take away it's combat prowess, no one is going to want to fly it in a small conflict, and in large conflicts, there are Titans, so the Command Ships would basically be used sparingly in all but medium conflicts.

The Caldari put business before pleasure. The Gallente put business in pleasure.
Hakan MacTrew
Konrakas Forged
Solyaris Chtonium
#12 - 2012-12-23 08:04:11 UTC
Mole Guy wrote:
having the same fire power and 3 links isnt a game changer.

have you taken NOTHING from the comments made in you "uber, all singing, all dancing T2 BS" thread?

A Command Ship is there to provide support for the fleet. Seige Warfare Links and Armoured Warfare Links can almost double the tanking ability of a whole fleet. Do you not think that the loss off of a mere 33% DPS, to only one ship, is a good trade off for that sort of capability?

How long before you want Logistics ships to start dishing out HAC level damage as well as repping?

Friends
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2012-12-23 12:01:30 UTC
I've always thought that the T2 ships should be superior in their area of specialization to the T1 hull, but equal to the T1 in other areas.
I don't see a problem with allowing command ships to field T1 BC level firepower, and put links on top of that.
a fleet of 10 command ships, or 1 command ship, same bonuses... people will fly the cheaper T1 BCs with makybe 2 command ships for bonuses.

The only thing I would balance is tank vs gank... a command ship that is tankier than T1 BC should be less Ganky... otherwise it is simply a better combat ship.
In 1v1 combat, it should be roughly equal to a T1 BC, but also able to provide links.

Then you can have a tanky command ship for larger fleets (with resist bonuses to allow it to be kept alive better), and a ganky version for smaller scale engagements where you're not worried about your command ship getting alpha'd, and you don't want to sacrifice firepower
Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#14 - 2012-12-23 12:08:40 UTC
Aren't these already rebalanced with the changes to Warfare links? ..pretty sure they aren't exactly the same ships they used to be.
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Hakan MacTrew
Konrakas Forged
Solyaris Chtonium
#15 - 2012-12-23 12:51:08 UTC
Mars Theran wrote:
Aren't these already rebalanced with the changes to Warfare links? ..pretty sure they aren't exactly the same ships they used to be.

They are restructuring the class so that their will be no field/fleet split. Both ships for each race will have the same level of combat potential as well as being able to get bonuses for links.

Friends
Griffin Omanid
Knights of the Zodiac
#16 - 2012-12-24 00:06:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Griffin Omanid
As far as I have understand the OP you want something like this role bonus, don´t you?
From the dev blog i suggest that every Command ship will get the option to either be flew as a field CS or a fleet
CS, they will only differ in the weapon system you can use (f.e. Damnation HAM & Absolution Laser).

So you will get the option to fly as an effective damage dealer with every CS with field fitting, but won´t be able to give Gang support. But you may also use a field CS fitting on both, and then you will get a really good booster, but also are able to fit a tank with more EHP then a BS. My Damnation normally gets at least 120 k EHP and my Vulture gets 70 k EHP, and all with a BC-sized ship, while the damnation has a DPS fitting, cause i wanted to fly but got no amour fleet to support.

Because of this both fittings will be extra ordinary strong, so i don´t think that something like a role bonus of 50 %DPS (like marauder to get 6 instead of 4 turrets) is really not needed, cause this would make a field fitting either to strong or not needed.

Proposal T2 BS Class Juggernaut
Beta Miner
COBRA Logistics
#17 - 2012-12-24 02:04:42 UTC
Hakan MacTrew wrote:
How long before you want Logistics ships to start dishing out HAC level damage as well as repping?


+1 for black ops logi hac!!

AFK Cloaking? An afk cloaker has never ganked me. In fact a cloaker at his keybourd has never ganked me either.
Sigras
Conglomo
#18 - 2012-12-24 05:44:46 UTC
Felsusguy wrote:
Sigras wrote:
The point of a command ship, or a support ship in general is that its a trade-off; you bring one ship that makes everyone a bit better but isnt so great by itself in order to make the fleet as a whole better.

Perhaps, but you have to realize that if you take away it's combat prowess, no one is going to want to fly it in a small conflict, and in large conflicts, there are Titans, so the Command Ships would basically be used sparingly in all but medium conflicts.

You mean other than the fact that titans cost 80 billion isk, get no bonuses to warfare links, have better things to do with their high slots, and arent wanting to be on grid for every fight?
Lugia3
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2012-12-27 01:11:31 UTC
I just hope my beloved Sleipnir stays a tanky badass with 700 DPS.

"CCP Dolan is full of shit." - CCP Bettik
Mole Guy
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#20 - 2012-12-27 17:06:36 UTC
im good with getting rid of the damnation armor bonus. to me its over powered.

absolution tank with damnation resists and fewer lows. make it like the relationship between the zealot and the sac.

there will be no split. they all should have 6 weapons. or 3 dounle powered weapons and link spots.

you want to get rid of off grid boosting, make my ship so i can fight and dish it out...
if u wanna make me choose, i choose the pos for my damnation and field for abso...
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