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Boosting the mineral supply in the game via mining
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Olga Chukarin
Twenty Questions
#1 - 2012-12-21 12:31:00 UTC
As everyone knows, the mineral supply in Eve has gone to pot. While before players could spend a couple of days bearing to finance a fortnights PVP, the obscene price of ships (due to the obscene price of high-end ore) nowadays has made that impossible. This is because, again well know, of the removal of drone loot and T1 module drops.

While I agree removing these was a good idea, what really should have happened is a MAJOR boost in mining yield to pick up the slack. I cant remember the actual figures for how the mineral supply was balanced between the 3 types, ie drones, module drops, and mining - someone once said at one point drone loot covered up to 50% of the minerals coming into the game - but for simplicity lets say it was split 33-33-33.

With 2 of the mineral streams stopped, that leaves only 33% of the minerals coming into the game. Hence the high ore prices. Simple economics. The new mining barges are nice, but they benefit only casual miners. While this is a good move, encouraging more casual players into mining and allowing them to mine alone without needing jet cans, industrials, and a hurricane to kill the guy that can flipped you, the simple fact remains that top end mining - ie using large gangs in hulks/orcas - has recieved no boosts at all.

What I believe is needed is a way to ramp up an individuals mining yield that dedicated miners will aspire to get. Something that dosnt need another ship (we already have enough ships) or another gang mod/skill (we need to help individual miners not just hulk blobs). One I have thought of is a couple of extra skills, something like advanced mining and astrogeology, but make them expensive - sommat like 100m+ to buy and x12 and x16 training multiplier (making them the equivilant of the dread/titan line in the industrial skill tree), each giving +5% yield per level. Together they would give a 50% boost, which is getting close to the 66% I said was needed earlier.
Aptenodytes
Reckless Abandon
#2 - 2012-12-21 12:40:21 UTC
Mining has already received a MASSIVE boost. When the price of Tritanium went from 2 isk to 6 isk, the income from mining Veldspar TRIPLED.

The higher the prices go, the more lucrative mining becomes. So increasing the yield might actually lower the mineral prices, and make mining earn LESS isk per hour.
Olga Chukarin
Twenty Questions
#3 - 2012-12-21 12:50:49 UTC
Income for miners has beem boosted yes. But its the mineral supply to the whole game that needs the boost. If miner yield went up 50%, and trit as a result went down in price 50% - the miner would still earn triple of what he earned when trit was 2 isk, but there would be more trit ingame, which would help pull down the obscene ship prices at the moment.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2012-12-21 13:01:58 UTC
Mining yeald got a big boost when the mining barges were overhauled. If what you are asking for is more minerals on the market, the answer is very simple actually and that is to make ice fields depletable.

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Anthar Thebess
#5 - 2012-12-21 13:55:19 UTC
Hmm maybe create BPO for t2 elements that can use something other than technite?
Nano transistors? Why they cannot be also reaction from something else?

This will cut the prices also on t1 ships ;)
etc.

Check the belts - mining is bigger and cheaper than it use to be - with tech 1 ship rebalance market must be filled with destroyers and cruisers before every thing claim down.

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Hakan MacTrew
Konrakas Forged
Solyaris Chtonium
#6 - 2012-12-21 15:09:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Hakan MacTrew
This thread is getting confusing. First its an issue with high end mineral supply, then its tritanium, ice too and now T2 components? Exactly how do alternatives to tech decrease T1 prices? I'm lost on that one.

Ok. Let's look at Tritanium.

There are 23.5 billion units of trit for sale just in jita right now and only 8 billion asked for in buy orders. Supply is meeting demand.

A max skill and implanted orca pilot boosting a hulk fleet pulls in 6.5k m3 per cycle per hulk, (more if the hulk pilot has implants too.) That's 130k m3 per hour. That's the equivalent of 13 million units of tritanium per hour. I don't see a problem with that as is.

I've also heard some bull-excrement about bull not having enough veldspar. So why is it on my ratting roams into null there always huge veld roids in belts and I'm the only one in system?

Now, depleting ice. I think your under the impression that if there is less ice to mine, people will mine more ore. What will actually happen is the bots will tear up the ice fields and the price of POS fuel will sky rocket, making null and WH life more expensive... Not such a good idea after all...

The real issue is mining itself. It's bot the yield that's the problem, its the process. Mining can be dull. I enjoy a stint now and again, but I more often than not buy my minerals instead. With all the hassle from miner bumpers, gankers and baiters, combined with how boring mining can be, is it any wonder that more people don't mine? Especially given the way miners are looked down upon by the so called elite.

So, make mining more appealing and you will get more people mining. More miners, more minerals. Problem solved.

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Sable Moran
Moran Light Industries
#7 - 2012-12-21 16:30:59 UTC
Olga Chukarin wrote:
the obscene ship prices at the moment.


Are you aware of the fact that in the tiericide process the manufacturing costs of many ships went up by a lot.

Before the cheapest frigates cost about 30K-40K ISK to manufacture each, now that cost is in the range of 300K - 350K ISK. The expensive ones cost close to half a million to make. The same is true for cruisers, they all cost about the same to make now.

That's one major factor on the rising price of the ships.

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Kira Vanachura
Green Visstick High
#8 - 2012-12-21 17:57:17 UTC
Olga Chukarin wrote:
As everyone knows, the mineral supply in Eve has gone to pot. While before players could spend a couple of days bearing to finance a fortnights PVP, the obscene price of ships (due to the obscene price of high-end ore) nowadays has made that impossible. This is because, again well know, of the removal of drone loot and T1 module drops.

CCP made these changes because the minerals market was broken. As everyone but you seems to know, this has now improved. I don't see any argument why you should be able to replace your ships more easily. Your losses are supposed to have meaning. If you cannot afford a battleship, scale down. Frigates have been buffed, you might want to try them.
Dave Stark
#9 - 2012-12-21 19:13:44 UTC
i fail to see anything that is broken that would be fixed by reducing mineral prices due to there being more minerals in circulation.
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2012-12-21 20:31:39 UTC
Aside from ships being buffed and having their mineral requirements increased too, it is the cost of low-ends that make ships relatively expensive. The price of high-ends jumped up and quickly crashed back down after the drone alloy nerf, but the low-ends went up and stayed up.

And ice is just plain too easy to mine. If it can't be made to be consumed like regular asteroids for fear of throttling the market, then have them get consumed and a new one spawn near by right away. At least make them move around and re-target occasionally.
Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#11 - 2012-12-21 20:34:35 UTC
Aptenodytes wrote:
Mining has already received a MASSIVE boost. When the price of Tritanium went from 2 isk to 6 isk, the income from mining Veldspar TRIPLED.

The higher the prices go, the more lucrative mining becomes. So increasing the yield might actually lower the mineral prices, and make mining earn LESS isk per hour.

If you mine 1000 veldspar per hour and veldspar is 6 isk each then you make 6000 isk and hour. If you mine 3000 veldspar an hour and make 2isk per unit that is 6000 isk an hour. All it would mean is ships are cheaper and people who hoard or invested would loose money.

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Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#12 - 2012-12-21 20:35:32 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
i fail to see anything that is broken that would be fixed by reducing mineral prices due to there being more minerals in circulation.

Cheap ships are good aren't they?

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#13 - 2012-12-21 23:04:43 UTC
cheap ships are good for combat pilots, but not good for indies

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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#14 - 2012-12-22 02:44:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Nevyn Auscent
Daichi Yamato wrote:
cheap ships are good for combat pilots, but not good for indies

Depends.
If ships cost 1/3rd the amount, people will take chances more often. Most PvP'ers have to spend time PvE'ing to afford their PvP ships. Meaning they will spend more time PvPing if ships are cheaper, ships are then lost more often, so Indies can deal in larger bulk, even if the price for each is the same.
Cheaper minerals shouldn't change the margins unless Indies cut each others throats.
So overall if ships are 1/3rd the price, and three times the ships get blown up, Indies also make exactly the same.
Edit note.
I actually don't agree with further skills for 'miners'. Mining as an 'end game profession' is not fun, interesting or developing game play. Mining is a stepping stone option into the Industry chain, and while individuals can turn good profit with it, I don't believe it should ever be regarded as a final profession, but as part of the entire Industry profession.
If more Ore yield is needed per miner, then change the existing skills up, and change T2 Strip Miners to have the same base yield as T1 Strip miners, then let Crystals take them even further. That will get more people using T2 Strips, & Crystals, as a lot of people use T1's simply because of the hassle of changing crystals constantly when you are simply grazing an entire belt.
Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#15 - 2012-12-22 04:27:20 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
cheap ships are good for combat pilots, but not good for indies

If your building more ships in less time then doesn't it have no effect at all?

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec.
Beta Miner
COBRA Logistics
#16 - 2012-12-22 04:37:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Beta Miner
So this is a post about there not being enough minerals in the game.

Because Eve is a (sorta) working economy, it all comes down to supply and demand and the OP thinks that supply is down and demand is up.

But where Eve departs from a real world working economy is that it's not only how much isk you get from mining, but also how much fun you get from mining.

And just so there is no misunderstanding, I hate mining ... i HATE it with a passion! Why? I'll let Hakan answer it for me as he's a clearer thinker than I am ....

Hakan MacTrew wrote:

The real issue is mining itself. It's [n]ot the yield that's the problem, its the process. Mining can be dull ... So, make mining more appealing and you will get more people mining. More miners, more minerals. Problem solved.


I got out of mining for two reasons 1) I was mostly bored, and 2) I was mostly broke. Granted, keeping a near max skilled hulk running all day long was actually quite lucrative isk-wise, but it was not lucrative fun-wise. Also, mining prices where/are still heavily influenced by guys running twelve mining alt/bots all day long and I refuse to compete on such an uneven playing field. So i didn't do it ... so i was usually broke ... so I quit mining.

What do we need to do to change this?

AFK Cloaking? An afk cloaker has never ganked me. In fact a cloaker at his keybourd has never ganked me either.
Allandri
Liandri Industrial
#17 - 2012-12-22 06:11:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Allandri
Beta Miner wrote:
...

I got out of mining for two reasons 1) I was mostly bored, and 2) I was mostly broke. Granted, keeping a near max skilled hulk running all day long was actually quite lucrative isk-wise, but it was not lucrative fun-wise. Also, mining prices where/are still heavily influenced by guys running twelve mining alt/bots all day long and I refuse to compete on such an uneven playing field. So i didn't do it ... so i was usually broke ... so I quit mining.

What do we need to do to change this?


How about getting rid of all asteroid belts and ice fields in the game while re-populating the same amount in gravimetric sites that have to be scanned down in order to access them? I personally think this one action would help CCP in their war against botters

As a bonus, this would also have the good potential to get people into other areas of EvE liek WH's or exploration

Probes for everyone!
Seranova Farreach
Biomass Negative
#18 - 2012-12-22 08:48:20 UTC
all i can hear is WHINE. the ore prices mean that t1 /T2 miners can make roughly 20 to 26m isk an hour mineing insted of the worthless amounts they made befor the drone poo changes and the massive ban wave of bot miners.

this was to allow mineing to be viable income,
new player start up so they can start mineing first while they train nessesary skills for pve/pve.
possable fall back if "it" all goes to hell you have something to fall back on.

also they could learn soem scanning skills and do grav sites and ladar sites for even more isk.. its just a case of what they want to do and when. i dont really fly t1 anymore but having gotten some faction ships a week ago the mineral cost for me was rather high and i can see how there is something between the SUPPLY side and the DEMAND side keeping the price high (casue we like to blow S**t up! )

my main consern is that T2 ships are getting rather stupidly priced mainly for the t2 materials and more so the tech moon goo

im sure most people have heard about the Goons and techmoons so i wont get into it, but its this that is driveing the cost of t2 hulls up (ontop of the higher mineral costs too)

As for some ones suggestion of removing roid belts i would say no, simply because scanned down sites are to give miners acess to virgin rocks which are better and better and also some lowsec ore too for the little extra time they spent scanning it down.

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Dave Stark
#19 - 2012-12-22 09:54:55 UTC
Commander Ted wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
i fail to see anything that is broken that would be fixed by reducing mineral prices due to there being more minerals in circulation.

Cheap ships are good aren't they?

i fail to see how current ship prices are an issue.
Dave Stark
#20 - 2012-12-22 09:55:42 UTC
Allandri wrote:
Beta Miner wrote:
...

I got out of mining for two reasons 1) I was mostly bored, and 2) I was mostly broke. Granted, keeping a near max skilled hulk running all day long was actually quite lucrative isk-wise, but it was not lucrative fun-wise. Also, mining prices where/are still heavily influenced by guys running twelve mining alt/bots all day long and I refuse to compete on such an uneven playing field. So i didn't do it ... so i was usually broke ... so I quit mining.

What do we need to do to change this?


How about getting rid of all asteroid belts and ice fields in the game while re-populating the same amount in gravimetric sites that have to be scanned down in order to access them? I personally think this one action would help CCP in their war against botters

As a bonus, this would also have the good potential to get people into other areas of EvE liek WH's or exploration

Probes for everyone!


if i'm going to the effort of probing down grav sites, they better have asteroids with like 50k m3 per rock then.
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