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Ice Mining change
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Rengerel en Distel
#21 - 2012-11-30 14:55:44 UTC
LordSpock wrote:
People are realizing that the price of iceproducts is at this level because their are bots right?

If we can have all bots banned or all disappear, that would mean that the price of ice goes up as there is less supply against a similar demand.
Automatically the price to jump freighters, jump capitals and jump BO-fleets will go up as well, but that isn't the worst part.
Worst will be the price of fuelblocks going up. That means the price of running a POS will go up and the cost to produce whatever people are making in their POS's goes up. Everything gets more expensive if you ask me.

Ofcourse for all the people that are purely icemining as income it would be great, but in the long run, nothing much will be gained.


You really think people are botting ice when you don't have to do anything with it for 45 minutes? AFK != bot. I'd guess the real bots are still running the market or mining ore, which is orders of magnitude more valuable than ice.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
LordSpock
Doomheim
#22 - 2012-11-30 15:43:59 UTC
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
LordSpock wrote:
People are realizing that the price of iceproducts is at this level because their are bots right?

If we can have all bots banned or all disappear, that would mean that the price of ice goes up as there is less supply against a similar demand.
Automatically the price to jump freighters, jump capitals and jump BO-fleets will go up as well, but that isn't the worst part.
Worst will be the price of fuelblocks going up. That means the price of running a POS will go up and the cost to produce whatever people are making in their POS's goes up. Everything gets more expensive if you ask me.

Ofcourse for all the people that are purely icemining as income it would be great, but in the long run, nothing much will be gained.


You really think people are botting ice when you don't have to do anything with it for 45 minutes? AFK != bot. I'd guess the real bots are still running the market or mining ore, which is orders of magnitude more valuable than ice.



And the people you are talking about will in no way be affected by these changes as proposed by OP and people in this thread. They just need 2 more minutes to scan a belt, warp to it and do the same trick. Which makes the whole pruposes of depleting/hidden belts obsolete.
Felicity Love
Doomheim
#23 - 2012-12-18 20:02:45 UTC


Putting ice products on planets (ice, certainly -- oceanic, gas and plasma, possibilities) would mesh neatly with PI.

PI can always use another iteration.

But no, I wouldn't make PI the exclusive source.

Depleting belts and comets (both have their limitations) with really juicy and harder to find (read: high concentrations of products) for Low Sec comets and the usual PI (has it's own limitations) would be a better way to go.

And IIRC the prophetic words from CCP Soundwave at the last Fanfest (keynote speeches) then "ring mining" also stands a good chance of being a source.

Blink

"EVE is dying." -- The Four Forum Trolls of the Apocalypse.   ( Pick four, any four. They all smell.  )
Zeko Rena
ENCOM Industries
#24 - 2012-12-18 20:11:15 UTC
lis scope wrote:
Ice should disapier like the roids do, but not respawn till all ice in the region has been mined then the respawn should be random and in new locations and perhaps new systems ?? and return slowly

just a thought I had thought I might share :)

can you see the wars fighting over the last of the ice :) that would be sweet



Ice should melt if you have it for to long, but if you have some plastic bottles in your hanger it should drip into those and then you have water bottles with minerals which your character can then drink ?? and gain stats bonuses to attributes

Can you see EVE characters being on the toilet more :) that would be sweet
celebro
Ember Inc.
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#25 - 2012-12-18 20:13:16 UTC  |  Edited by: celebro
Ice mining is fine , if its too unprofitable move to mining rocks, if you like to afk a lot mine ice and earn less, 2 options, nothing to change.
Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
#26 - 2012-12-18 23:28:01 UTC
A mix of these ideas would be interesting.

PI avalible ice.

Ring ice belts that deplete and are low value.

Comets with higher quality ice that can be scanned down.

Static high sec ice belts removed but leave the lower sec ones and maybe add a few more.

All sounds like fun to me. CCP could adjust PI as needed to keep it inline with miners and could adust total avalible between them all to keep fuel cost for POS's at a reasonible level.
celebro
Ember Inc.
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#27 - 2012-12-19 16:35:36 UTC
I personally never liked the PI, there is very little interaction needed in a sense it does not involve piloting space ships. Unlike mining, where you have to put your assets at a certain level of risk, aside from the odd hauling of planet materials. So moving ice mining to PI , would be something I won't think will improve the game.


What we have now is 2 options for mining :


Asteroid mining, requires average level of attention can be afk for a little while, depending on ship.


Ice mining, very low level of attention, highly afkable.




Now we could only think of another way, basically mining where afking is nearly impossible but very productive, covetor/hulk can achieve that option to an extent, anymore than that will make mining unbearable.


So what we have now works, any other ideas read so far are futile in actually improving the game, or giving more options.
Miranda Starborn
Beehive Technologies
#28 - 2012-12-19 20:53:40 UTC
lis scope wrote:
can you see the wars fighting over the last of the ice :) that would be sweet


Perhaps, but, as I see it, such mechanism would cause far more problem for almost every eve player than it would creates benefits.
Miranda Starborn
Beehive Technologies
#29 - 2012-12-19 21:22:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Miranda Starborn
LordSpock wrote:
People are realizing that the price of iceproducts is at this level because their are bots right?


This should come as no wonder, considering one need to spend insanely many mac hours mining for ice just to keep a L POS running for a year.

A Large POS consumes 400 units of isotopes per hour and, if I recall it right, a cube in empire yields 300 units. That means you need to mine almost 12 thousand cubes for a year. Considering one can mine like 60 cuber per hours this will take about 200 hours to mine. Spread out over a year it means an investment of 4 hours per week. Doesn't sound that much right? However, you also need 150 Heavy water and 150 liquid ozone from the ice. One of these (don't remember which one) yield only 25 units per cube which means you need to multiply the time needed with a factor of 5. So you end up with having to mine ~20 hours per week for one L POS just to keep it running, which is equal to a half time work....

Now, one can always remark'; why not use the extra 40k cubes and sell the isotopes to buy the missing fuel to reduce the mining time? That is true and many do this, however this does not mean the missing stuff will magically appears on the market; it needs to be mined as well. That said, I leave it as an exercise to the reader to figured out who might be mining the majority of that stuff...
Miranda Starborn
Beehive Technologies
#30 - 2012-12-19 21:59:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Miranda Starborn
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
You really think people are botting ice when you don't have to do anything with it for 45 minutes?

That is a feature that was introduced the past year, but eve has a few years on the neck by now. But yes, if one needs to invest more exhummer hours per years than their is hour in a year to run a couple of POS's then you can safely bet on that some people will MM ice to cover the demand...

Rengerel en Distel wrote:
AFK != bot.

Nobody said that either. However, one is not supposed to be AFK mining either. And you know that too, right?

Rengerel en Distel wrote:
I'd guess the real bots are still running the market or mining ore, which is orders of magnitude more valuable than ice.

If your assumption is that higher profits is what drives boters activities then your guess should not be on mining at all. However I would say your assumption to start with is incorrect; boters runs bots on whatever can be boted for whatever reasons they might have to do it.
LordSpock
Doomheim
#31 - 2012-12-20 08:39:37 UTC  |  Edited by: LordSpock
Miranda Starborn wrote:
LordSpock wrote:
People are realizing that the price of iceproducts is at this level because their are bots right?


This should come as no wonder, considering one need to spend insanely many mac hours mining for ice just to keep a L POS running for a year.

A Large POS consumes 400 units of isotopes per hour and, if I recall it right, a cube in empire yields 300 units. That means you need to mine almost 12 thousand cubes for a year. Considering one can mine like 60 cuber per hours this will take about 200 hours to mine. Spread out over a year it means an investment of 4 hours per week. Doesn't sound that much right? However, you also need 150 Heavy water and 150 liquid ozone from the ice. One of these (don't remember which one) yield only 25 units per cube which means you need to multiply the time needed with a factor of 5. So you end up with having to mine ~20 hours per week for one L POS just to keep it running, which is equal to a half time work....

Now, one can always remark'; why not use the extra 40k cubes and sell the isotopes to buy the missing fuel to reduce the mining time? That is true and many do this, however this does not mean the missing stuff will magically appears on the market; it needs to be mined as well. That said, I leave it as an exercise to the reader to figured out who might be mining the majority of that stuff...


I made a calculation (love doing calculations) for fueling a Large Caldari Tower. You always have an excess of isotopes compared to the heavy water and ozone. So what my calculation is based on is actually mining the ice and selling the excess isotopes to buy all other materials to build the fuelblocks. This includes all PI materials.

If you would only depend on units of Ice, one would need (at current prices) to mine around 2450 units of ice per month on average. When you have planets doing PI for fuel as well, the need to mine this vast amount is not as high.
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#32 - 2012-12-30 00:33:02 UTC
LordSpock wrote:
Miranda Starborn wrote:

A Large POS consumes 400 units of isotopes per hour and, if I recall it right, a cube in empire yields 300 units. That means you need to mine almost 12 thousand cubes for a year. Considering one can mine like 60 cuber per hours this will take about 200 hours to mine. Spread out over a year it means an investment of 4 hours per week. Doesn't sound that much right? However, you also need 150 Heavy water and 150 liquid ozone from the ice. One of these (don't remember which one) yield only 25 units per cube which means you need to multiply the time needed with a factor of 5. So you end up with having to mine ~20 hours per week for one L POS just to keep it running, which is equal to a half time work....

Now, one can always remark'; why not use the extra 40k cubes and sell the isotopes to buy the missing fuel to reduce the mining time? That is true and many do this, however this does not mean the missing stuff will magically appears on the market; it needs to be mined as well. That said, I leave it as an exercise to the reader to figured out who might be mining the majority of that stuff...


I made a calculation (love doing calculations) for fueling a Large Caldari Tower. You always have an excess of isotopes compared to the heavy water and ozone. So what my calculation is based on is actually mining the ice and selling the excess isotopes to buy all other materials to build the fuelblocks. This includes all PI materials.

If you would only depend on units of Ice, one would need (at current prices) to mine around 2450 units of ice per month on average. When you have planets doing PI for fuel as well, the need to mine this vast amount is not as high.


Using hisec ice as an example
If you were to calculate this out for just the Liquid ozone need (25 per block/150 per 40 block run) you get
8,760 hours in a year
350,400 blocks consumed in a year

at 25 units a block (assuming perfect refine) for LO you require1,314,000 units of LO per year
equaling 52,560 ice blocks
or 876 hours of mining at 60 blocks per hour.
which is 2.4 hours a day
or 16.8 hours a week

this is just to run one large tower. with one person mining ice. just for one tower.

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
Felicity Love
Doomheim
#33 - 2012-12-30 01:05:04 UTC
I guess we'll just have to wait and see what the big "POS revamp" brings -- and how it affects the isotope industry (or not).

Blink

"EVE is dying." -- The Four Forum Trolls of the Apocalypse.   ( Pick four, any four. They all smell.  )
Grombutz
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2012-12-30 09:56:08 UTC
Let me ask a question dear OP:

Was it hard to flush your brain down the toilett?

And now more serious:

Ice-Miners don't need bots. What is all this white-knighting about? You want to earn more with your own ice? :D
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#35 - 2012-12-30 15:15:35 UTC
lis scope wrote:


just a thought I had thought I might share :)




As many, many have over the past 10 years.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Toku Jiang
Jiang Laboratories and Discovery
#36 - 2012-12-31 16:35:46 UTC
The Isotope market is effected by more than just POS fuel. I burn more Isotopes jumping a freighter in a single day than the POS will burn in a month. Null sec ice is much better for getting large amounts of LO and HW, but a ton of that is used in jump gate networks. If you look at an isk per hour basis even the best null sec ice does not equal the isk per hour of the best null sec ores. Granted you can sit in one spot and mine Dark Glitter till your blue in the face, but with the size of grav sites in null sec and the many different ores that will reap larger benefits, your still better off mining ore unless your lazy or afk/bot mining.

Ice products have never kept up with minerals in grand scheme of things in regards to mining, so I've always questioned why ice products haven't balanced out in price compared with minerals. In high sec there is no reason at all to mine ice, the isk per hour is less than half of mining ores. I know that people bot ice, I get that, but even if botting for ice, whey would you sell it so cheap? The demand is always there for those products.

I'm not really sure what you do about it. You can make ice fields deplete or even scanable, but I'm not sure that would really change the ice market in a positive direction. Ice products will become extremely expensive for a spike, people will adapt and start mining ice, then the price will drop again when the market gets flooded, and it might even balance out, but the problem with ice is that not everybody uses it. High sec dwellers have no use for ice products at all, unless they have a high sec POS, but they only need what they need for fuel, which in the grand scheme of things isn't much. In my opinion mining is mining regardless if it is ice or ore, but at the end of the day it's about what product is going to give me the best bang for my buck (isk/hour), and the ability to turn minerals into a finished product you can make a profit on will always make minerals more attractive to mine.
Lledrith
Ex Caminus
#37 - 2013-01-01 06:08:47 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
The NPCs are trying to control access to the ice in order to manipulate the market and to charge "access fees" for players to mine ice unmolested.


NPC has no need to control or manipulate the market. since they dont suffer at all any of the resources depletion consequences.


stoicfaux wrote:
The NPCs should use Incursion mechanics and sleeper AI.


for such complex idea to be used i think that then they should really push for mineral depletion. and we all know it wont happen.
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#38 - 2013-01-01 14:45:12 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
The Ice Fields should be guarded by NPCs. The NPCs are trying to control access to the ice in order to manipulate the market and to charge "access fees" for players to mine ice unmolested. The NPCs should use Incursion mechanics and sleeper AI


They already are, via James315 and his army of bot alts.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0
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