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FW: Counter-attacking AWOXers Possibly Broken? (Defenders taking Militia Faction Standings Hits?)
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Ty Delaney
Gambit Roulette
#1 - 2012-12-18 17:10:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Ty Delaney
Running into a possibly pretty bad issue in Faction Warfare. Stuck at work, so I can't test it. Can someone verify?

The Situation: A guy in your FW Militia shoots a non-outlaw member of the same militia. At some point in there, the Awoxer is set suspect, which should let anyone shoot him.

... EXCEPT, if you're sitting right there, and in the militia, you still can't shoot that awoxer because you'll take a big hit to your standings with the Militia?

For this test, we need:

* The Test server, so everyone doesn't get their standings shot to hell on the live server.
* 2 non-outlaw members in the same militia, who aren't in the same corp.
* A third militia member who can be outlaw or not, and not in the same corp as the guy who will be our awoxer.
* (Optional) A non-militia neutral party, to observe and confirm flags.

1. First non-outlaw militia member shoots 2nd non-outlaw militia member.

? Can the aggressed militia member return fire WITHOUT taking Militia standings hits? Yes, I get that he's at the very least in a limited engagement and won't take sec hits, but does that affect the Militia standings issue?
? Can the third militia member join in on the now-suspect-flagged militia member awoxer without taking Militia standings hits? (He won't take sec hits, but what about Militia?) What if he's in fleet with the aggressed pilot?

2. Have one non-outlaw guy pod one of the other guys. Then have the guy who now has kill-rights come back and activate them.

? Can the militia guys sitting there next to that kill-right-activated guy attack him WITHOUT taking militia standings hits?
? Do even kill-rights fail to make it possible to counter-attack a militia AWOXer without taking militia Standings hits?

? During all this, what flag change is the neutral party seeing?

In short:
? Is there any way (other than a wardec) for a member of the militia to counter-attack another member of the militia who attacks his own militia, WITHOUT taking standings hits with that militia when you counter-attack? And if so, what are those specific circumstances?

I don't think it's as simple as "if you can attack them without taking sec status hits, you're okay", because if that was true, people could shoot -5 outlaw militia members all day without the Militia caring, and I don't think that's the case.
Othran
Route One
#2 - 2012-12-18 17:39:33 UTC
Ty Delaney wrote:

In short:
? Is there any way (other than a wardec) for a member of the militia to counter-attack another member of the militia who attacks his own militia, WITHOUT taking standings hits with that militia when you counter-attack? And if so, what are those specific circumstances?


No.

Its been like this forever, you will always take a factional hit if you shoot at another militia member regardless of what they do.
Rengerel en Distel
#3 - 2012-12-18 21:21:26 UTC
Othran wrote:
Ty Delaney wrote:

In short:
? Is there any way (other than a wardec) for a member of the militia to counter-attack another member of the militia who attacks his own militia, WITHOUT taking standings hits with that militia when you counter-attack? And if so, what are those specific circumstances?


No.

Its been like this forever, you will always take a factional hit if you shoot at another militia member regardless of what they do.


Which is exactly why they do it, they know it hurts you a lot more than them.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
Deen Wispa
Sheriff.
United Caldari Space Command.
#4 - 2012-12-18 21:52:44 UTC
Doesn't the awoxer and the corp he belongs to, get kicked out of militia after a few awoxes anyway?

High Five. Yeah! C'est La Eve .
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#5 - 2012-12-18 21:57:10 UTC
Step 1. Get two alts with +10 Faction Standings into 3 man corp.
Step 2. Have third guy AWOX friendly militia, standings eventually go to -10.

(10 + 10 - 10 )/3 = 3.33. Your corp gets to stay in Militia.

Step 3. Go to Step 2.
Ty Delaney
Gambit Roulette
#6 - 2012-12-18 22:27:23 UTC
I have guys in my Alliance who report having tested this last week with the new mechanics in place and NOT losing standings for shooting a fellow Outlaw militia (he was their target during a tackling training session with new pilots).

In turn that Outlaw pilot in the militia was able to return fire without taking standings hits.

Can anyone Confirm? Disprove?

Does anyone on Mythbusters play Eve?
Gah'Matar
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#7 - 2012-12-18 22:53:32 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Step 1. Get two alts with +10 Faction Standings into 3 man corp.
Step 2. Have third guy AWOX friendly militia, standings eventually go to -10.

(10 + 10 - 10 )/3 = 3.33. Your corp gets to stay in Militia.

Step 3. Go to Step 2.



Pretty much this and the similar ghetto version:

1. Get alt with 0.0 standing and corp management skil.
2. Create corp and join militia.
3. Awoxer joins corp.
4. When corp gets warning about standing (is it still 7 days?) awoxer leaves corp.
5. When corp back in good standing, awoxer joins for another week.

Pr0 version would be to have 2 alts and 2 alt corps so you can alternate week on / week off.
Nevare Wong
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#8 - 2012-12-18 23:55:19 UTC
Gah'Matar wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Step 1. Get two alts with +10 Faction Standings into 3 man corp.
Step 2. Have third guy AWOX friendly militia, standings eventually go to -10.

(10 + 10 - 10 )/3 = 3.33. Your corp gets to stay in Militia.

Step 3. Go to Step 2.



Pretty much this and the similar ghetto version:

1. Get alt with 0.0 standing and corp management skil.
2. Create corp and join militia.
3. Awoxer joins corp.
4. When corp gets warning about standing (is it still 7 days?) awoxer leaves corp.
5. When corp back in good standing, awoxer joins for another week.

Pr0 version would be to have 2 alts and 2 alt corps so you can alternate week on / week off.


Corp standings refresh every downtime with the average of everyone that has been in corp for at least 7 dt's.
So as long as awoxing alt leaves after the 6th dt and doesn't rejoin until after the 7th dt corp standings shouldn't change.
Zoe Panala
Blobcats
#9 - 2012-12-19 00:09:15 UTC
Ty Delaney wrote:
Running into a possibly pretty bad issue in Faction Warfare. Stuck at work, so I can't test it. Can someone verify?

The Situation: A guy in your FW Militia shoots a non-outlaw member of the same militia. At some point in there, the Awoxer is set suspect, which should let anyone shoot him.

... EXCEPT, if you're sitting right there, and in the militia, you still can't shoot that awoxer because you'll take a big hit to your standings with the Militia?

For this test, we need:

* The Test server, so everyone doesn't get their standings shot to hell on the live server.
* 2 non-outlaw members in the same militia, who aren't in the same corp.
* A third militia member who can be outlaw or not, and not in the same corp as the guy who will be our awoxer.
* (Optional) A non-militia neutral party, to observe and confirm flags.

1. First non-outlaw militia member shoots 2nd non-outlaw militia member.

? Can the aggressed militia member return fire WITHOUT taking Militia standings hits? Yes, I get that he's at the very least in a limited engagement and won't take sec hits, but does that affect the Militia standings issue?
? Can the third militia member join in on the now-suspect-flagged militia member awoxer without taking Militia standings hits? (He won't take sec hits, but what about Militia?) What if he's in fleet with the aggressed pilot?

2. Have one non-outlaw guy pod one of the other guys. Then have the guy who now has kill-rights come back and activate them.

? Can the militia guys sitting there next to that kill-right-activated guy attack him WITHOUT taking militia standings hits?
? Do even kill-rights fail to make it possible to counter-attack a militia AWOXer without taking militia Standings hits?

? During all this, what flag change is the neutral party seeing?

In short:
? Is there any way (other than a wardec) for a member of the militia to counter-attack another member of the militia who attacks his own militia, WITHOUT taking standings hits with that militia when you counter-attack? And if so, what are those specific circumstances?

I don't think it's as simple as "if you can attack them without taking sec status hits, you're okay", because if that was true, people could shoot -5 outlaw militia members all day without the Militia caring, and I don't think that's the case.


Or maybe you could just ask the aowxing alts of your own militia in Caldari and Amarr... oh God not another hyprocite thread. Twisted
Ty Delaney
Gambit Roulette
#10 - 2012-12-19 23:34:55 UTC
Zoe Panala wrote:

Or maybe you could just ask the aowxing alts of your own militia in Caldari and Amarr... oh God not another hyprocite thread. Twisted


I'm sure there are Minmatar awoxers in the Amarr and Caldari militia -- I'm not judging awoxers at all -- if that's what their game is about, then more power to 'em.

I just want to understand how the standings work now, because I believe they've changed.

Side note: You imagine I know everyone in my militia, let alone who everyone's alts are?