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What might 'no concord' look like?

Author
Agromos nulKaedi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2012-12-18 20:44:12 UTC
I saw some mention of CCP wanting to remove CONCORD.. but previous systems tend to have holes in them, so I figure tossing ideas of what "No Concord, But protected Highsec" would resemble might help to inform such a change so that it lacks huge gaping exploits. There are probably a few ways to do this; the only idea I had of it was something like this:

just like how you can sign up for FW, players would be able to sign up for CONCORD.

When a ship does something that today would get them concorded, CONCORD is called out. An NPC Concord ship swoops in to action.. with a hictor, and shuts their ability to warp out down.
The offender's ability to eject their capsule is overridden. Otherwise, you could just do your mayhem and have a CONCORD alt swoop in to scoop your ship up, making the system a farce. (The ability to block a capsule from ejecting is no more arbitrarily absurd than the current weapons on CONCORD ships.) The gates and stations are closed to them.

At the same time, a notice is broadcast to concord players (filtered by number of jumps), with the name and ship of the offender and short description of the crime. "Soand Soh in "Soand Soh's Catalyst" (Catalyst) used modules Light Neutron Blaster II (x8) against Miner Innocent in "Mah Hulk" (Hulk) near Faraway IV - Asteroid Belt 1". You can link to that notice to warp directly to the site, just like you would jump to a celestial or mission. An in-system channel for concord opens for responders to coordinate. Once a concord player gets there, any sort've mayhem they care to do to the offending character(s) is concord-sanctioned and will actually increase their sec status. Blow them up, pod them even, Concord will pat you on the back and make your sec status all shiny and blue.

If nobody shows up, you can presumably try to kill the hictor - it has a thick buffer tank and a small sig and orbits like a frigate, so it takes quite awhile no matter what you are, but just about anything can chip it away EVENTUALLY - and run for it. Basically imagine a Rifter with a 1600mm plate, AB, and infinipoint and nothing else. Attacking a CONCORD hictor is, of course, a CONCORD offense. Or if nobody responds, when the relevant flags expire, the hictor leaves.

Now: You do something bad; NPC's show up, your ship will be turned into wreckage.
This: You do something bad; player PVPers are summonned; your ship will be turned into wreckage. unless for some reason nobody is around or cares (unlikely), in which case you're just stuck in space for a few minutes waiting off a timer. This way though, you and the concord guys get to pew at each other, even if the ultimate end of the situation is more or less written in stone. The offender does lose range control, since presumably the concord people with blasters will warp in at 0 and the snipers will warp in at 100, but eeh.

Questions include asking what happens if gankers have concord alts; presumably then the alt swoops in, blows up the gank ship before anyone else gets there, and pockets their own loot. I'm not sure that this is a problem.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#2 - 2012-12-18 21:49:08 UTC
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#3 - 2012-12-18 22:52:46 UTC
Oh look, tankable concord....
Gank gangs become immune yet again, why would a player trickle into a snipe tornado gang which can insti pop most ships?
Or a blaster gang can just burn the Hictor down in 10 seconds before any players have got around to responding.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#4 - 2012-12-18 23:26:18 UTC
Exploit one found:
- Commit a criminal act in noob ship on top of an industrial or freighter.
- Now the industrial/freighter is caught in the bubble as well and has no route for quick escape.
- Warp in a "gank squad" and gank the pinned industrial/freighter.

Exploit 2 found:
- Warp in sniping gankers at multiple ranges
- After pinned down, the gankers all target each others' CONCORD HICs and blow them out of the water (tracking matters little when at sufficient range).

Not an exploit, but a likely senario:
- 100+ man Pantheon fleets (see: massive Remote Repair fleets) locking down gates and killing everything coming or going (remember, the gate is "bubbled" because everyone on gate is a "criminal")

For reference on why CONCORD is the way it is, research the corporation MoO.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#5 - 2012-12-18 23:32:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Nikk Narrel
ShahFluffers wrote:
Exploit one found:
- Commit a criminal act in noob ship on top of an industrial or freighter.
- Now the industrial/freighter is caught in the bubble as well and has no route for quick escape.
- Warp in a "gank squad" and gank the pinned industrial/freighter.

Exploit 2 found:
- Warp in sniping gankers at multiple ranges
- After pinned down, the gankers all target each others' CONCORD HICs and blow them out of the water (tracking matters little when at sufficient range).

Not an exploit, but a likely senario:
- 100+ man Pantheon fleets (see: massive Remote Repair fleets) locking down gates and killing everything coming or going (remember, the gate is "bubbled" because everyone on gate is a "criminal")

For reference on why CONCORD is the way it is, research the corporation MoO.

Give Concord's hic a tech boost, it only locks down specific boats. (Not limited to just one like a player hic with a script)
Then give em free sensor damps for defense, so the sniper boys cant lock from too far away.

Playing devil's advocate to see what might make this work, fascinating really.
Crimeo Khamsi
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2012-12-19 03:08:02 UTC
Yeah, I feel like half the people playing CONCORD would just intentionally not do anything when they arrive, just for the tears. Or shoot the victim, if allowed to.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#7 - 2012-12-19 03:11:51 UTC
Crimeo Khamsi wrote:
Yeah, I feel like half the people playing CONCORD would just intentionally not do anything when they arrive, just for the tears. Or shoot the victim, if allowed to.

Of course you are correct.

There must be an incentive to do the right thing, or else people will naturally do the fun thing.
Seranova Farreach
Biomass Negative
#8 - 2012-12-19 05:32:44 UTC
incentive? CASH! moola! denero! chedder! dollas! and so on..
if acting as concord you shoot the agressor and he goes pop you get cash. oh.. wait.. that sounds almost identical to the CURRENT BOUNTY SYSTEM.

[u]___________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg[/u]

Agromos nulKaedi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2012-12-19 22:59:28 UTC
Well the core points needs to be "You can't run" (your ship gets tackled really solidly), "you can't hide" (you can't just eject and sneak away), "you're going to get blown up".

Maybe concord offenses should lock you out of stations and put a one time permanent kill right on you instead? Still seems abusable. Don't let the suspect tag expire, and broadcast your location to CONCORD pilots constantly?

The mechanic I think would be hoped for is for people to set up for CONCORD, rigging up PVP ships to counter the common gankers and the like, only to have gankers rig their setups to combat the CONCORD capsuleer fleets that they summon by the act of grief. This might make highsec ganking more common. somehow I fail to be bothered by this. The problem comes from trying to prevent abuse or cooperative scamming, which runs into the same problems as we see with bounty. Bounty seems to have some minor promise of making pvpers a bit more self-sufficient, except that I don't usually see PVP pilots with a bounty. The payoffs can't be huge for concord, otherwise you get people taking turns getting concorded to get blown up by the other. And i'm not sure how the heck to set all that up.

The problem is that I doubt CCP knows, either.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#10 - 2012-12-19 23:36:26 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Give Concord's hic a tech boost, it only locks down specific boats. (Not limited to just one like a player hic with a script)
Then give em free sensor damps for defense, so the sniper boys cant lock from too far away.

Playing devil's advocate to see what might make this work, fascinating really.

Agromos nulKaedi wrote:
Well the core points needs to be "You can't run" (your ship gets tackled really solidly), "you can't hide" (you can't just eject and sneak away), "you're going to get blown up".

I thought the idea behind "player enforcement" is that players use their skills to "lay down the law" against people who use their skills to "break the law." And if the former fails (or doesn't even bother) to enforce things then the offender can escape.

If the mechanics are designed such that the offender being blown up is pretty much guaranteed... then there is no point for any change as CONCORD currently assures the "you're going to get blown up" thing. All you'll be doing is giving people a way to get "free killmails" and the pretense that Empire "laws" are actually "player enforced."

edit: HOWEVER... if you create a system where offenders CAN operate on equal footing (see: no mechanics hampering them) then I can almost guarantee that "criminals" will abuse this by bringing in friends in hyper-organized and self sustaining fleets. And player groups in high-sec would be hard pressed to deal with such fleets if the past is any indication.

Basically this is a lose-lose idea.

Agromos nulKaedi wrote:
Maybe concord offenses should lock you out of stations and put a one time permanent kill right on you instead? Still seems abusable. Don't let the suspect tag expire, and broadcast your location to CONCORD pilots constantly?

Join Faction Warfare and become an outlaw (less than -5.0 security status). You can be shot at by anyone, anywhere, at any time, and have NPC Police and Navy ships (that can potentially lock you down) harass you in high-sec. Yet such people who know what they are doing still operate in high-sec.
kai dragonstorm
2ND TO NONE
#11 - 2012-12-20 00:57:16 UTC
i kinda like the idea of having concord in the players hands

i have a few ideas on the subject

the concord battleships will have specific modules that cant be changed,

the ship itself cant shoot an npc or players that havnt commited a crime, open cans or wrecks, leave high sec, or be traded or sold,

when you are in the ship and thus on duty a star is put on your name in local so ppl know you are working for concord

the ship should autotarget ships that have commited an illegal act and you are allowed to destroy,


some cool modules it could have

concord cargo scanner: works like a survey scanner but on all player cargo holds in range, if an illegal item is spotted you ship will auto target that player and they will get a warning to turn over the item or be attacked by you,

concord jump portal generator: will jump you to a player that is tackled by a npc concord frig

concord warp navigator module: when turned on your ship will follow your target into warp in the same corridor, stays on during warp, just fluff, lol






DSpite Culhach
#12 - 2013-01-06 10:50:29 UTC
I'm just making this up as I go along.

* Concord ships are stored, warped, in systems, and have blank generic clones that anyone can jump to.
* When an offence is commited, anyone that has joined the CONCORD NPC Corp (which will have taxes and other implications) gets a message up and can insta clonejump to a random Concord ship at the site and gets to shoot anything flashing red. Only so many spots can be filled.
* The Concord ships wont be UBER, but will be more like buffed combat ships.

- Pirates will be more likely to get away with some things, but getting juicy cargo will be a lot harder as players will kill ships attempting to take it, so ganks will need more organization then "X tornados = 1 Y ship kill". Any other "easy exploitable tactics" could be balanced later.
- Lots of Carebears getting their hands bloody and maybe developing a taste for killing, rather then say mining.
- Maybe CCP will be nice and let players pre-fit the Concord ship they want when they "spawn"
- Bored players in stations get a "call to arms" every so often to break monotony.
- Maybe CCP lets Concord players roam in Concord (aka Police Duty) ship looking for bad guys and we dial down the fact that the faction Police can find you anywhere in seconds. Other players can then kill Concord without the usual "Insta-kill" repsonse and players still have to pay a small fee to replace Concord hulls. When they get kills they get better bounty payouts then the current system.

* Might need a way to stop everyone joining. One is "no neg status" or better "Very high sec status".
* I'm running out of crap to say ...

I apparently have no idea what I'm doing.