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Regarding tachyon laser gun turrets
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Capt Sephiroth
#1 - 2012-12-17 11:04:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Capt Sephiroth
Hello fellow capsuleers

Not sure if this is the place to place this topic or not, seeing as this is my 1st ever topic on eve forums I apologize in advance.

Having said that I am just wondering if someone could give me an explanation on why I am getting glancing and grazing shots for most of my volleys with my guns having fitted imperial standard crystals on my t2 tachyons shooting at a battleship/cruiser sized targets at 105-107km when the optimal for my guns with those crystals fitted is 97km and falloff is 46km, optimal range scriptsx2, with tracking speed of 0.0261 and when I switch to auroras that have optimal range of 154km and falloff of 31km, when auroras fitted i have track speed scriptsx2, with tracking speed of 0.01033 I keep getting hits and smashes and penetrates and I wont say never getting grazing or glancing shots since I don't watch my log all the time?

Thank you in advance for your explanations and opinions.
Alara IonStorm
#2 - 2012-12-17 11:13:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
I assume this is missions. Any chance you are being NPC Tracking Disrupted making the Optimal of the Standards fall below the targets range but not the Aurora?
Capt Sephiroth
#3 - 2012-12-17 11:28:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Capt Sephiroth
Nah these are incursions and I checked none of negating effects are on me at the time.
Silber Zidayn
Doomheim
#4 - 2012-12-18 22:36:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Silber Zidayn
Capt Sephiroth wrote:
Nah these are incursions and I checked none of negating effects are on me at the time.


Are t2 pulse not a option for you or are you not running HQs?

If you post your fit I am sure you could get a actual answer. Most likely you have no TCs or TEs fit.
Dorian Wylde
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2012-12-18 22:43:04 UTC
If your optimal is 97 and you're shooting at 105, you're in falloff, so you're going to have some misses and glancings.

At least if I understand the system correctly.
Akuma Tsukai
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#6 - 2012-12-18 23:44:38 UTC
Dorian Wylde wrote:
If your optimal is 97 and you're shooting at 105, you're in falloff, so you're going to have some misses and glancings.

At least if I understand the system correctly.

This.
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#7 - 2012-12-18 23:48:56 UTC
Capt Sephiroth wrote:
Hello fellow capsuleers

t2 tachyons
targets at 105-107km

when the optimal for my gun is 97km and falloff is 136km
switch to auroras optimal range of 161km



.... really?

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
Capt Sephiroth
#8 - 2013-01-03 19:52:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Capt Sephiroth
Dorian Wylde wrote:
If your optimal is 97 and you're shooting at 105, you're in falloff, so you're going to have some misses and glancings.

At least if I understand the system correctly.


Yes I understand that but the thing is it happens way to often in my case, almost 80% of hits are grazes and glancing hits while when I use auroras who have optimal at 161km I don't get anywhere near that much grazes or glancing shots. :(

At least that is what I noticed about my shots, it would be great if someone else could check that and see if it is same for them.
Belthazor4011
Battle BV Redux
#9 - 2013-01-04 16:02:39 UTC
Autocannons live in fall off.

Lazers really do not, a laser in fall off may just as well not be firing.

Boost your optimal or get closer really if you want better shots...
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#10 - 2013-01-04 17:12:09 UTC
Aurora can't hit anything unless your target is an immobile titan and even then its a gamble.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Brandoe Chung
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#11 - 2013-01-04 18:17:47 UTC
I'm at work so I can't check this out right now. But with Hybrids in falloff your usually doing around 60% and I say around since hybrids have better falloff than lasers and the damage percent falls off slower and of course slowest with projectiles. And when you get to the outside edge of your falloff it's a gamble whether you will hit at all.

So with lasers since they have very little falloff you are probably almost immediately doing 60% damage which would probably scroll up as glancing blows on the UI. Your best bet if you can is too move in 5-10K so you are in optimal range. Or train up all your gunnery support skills to V
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#12 - 2013-01-04 18:36:45 UTC
Brandoe Chung wrote:
I'm at work so I can't check this out right now. But with Hybrids in falloff your usually doing around 60% and I say around since hybrids have better falloff than lasers and the damage percent falls off slower and of course slowest with projectiles. And when you get to the outside edge of your falloff it's a gamble whether you will hit at all.

So with lasers since they have very little falloff you are probably almost immediately doing 60% damage which would probably scroll up as glancing blows on the UI. Your best bet if you can is too move in 5-10K so you are in optimal range. Or train up all your gunnery support skills to V


This is not how falloff works.
Vilnius Zar
SDC Multi Ten
#13 - 2013-01-04 18:59:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Vilnius Zar
It's a combination of things.

- First of all tracking, especially with Aurora crystals Tach tracking is horrible to a point where you'll just miss stuff if they happen to be smaller targets and have even the slightest angular velocity. Solution, don't use aurora crystals, instead use faction ones because they don't have a tracking issue you generally apply damage better. Another solution is to add tracking comps with tracking script

- you're outside optimal, note that if you mouseover your turret icon you'll get some bogus info. it states "falloff" with some huge number, what it actually is is "optimal + 1x falloff" so if you're at that "falloff" range then you have 50% chance to hit already, not counting any other issues.

- you're probably attacking smaller targets, sig radius of the target vs the "size" of the gun also affects your chance to hit


So you have (massive) tracking issues, you're probably outside optimal and you're probably attacking smaller targets, that all adds up to a really low chance to hit and the thing is that chance to hit also affects hit quality. So you hit less often and for crappier damage, hence the glancing hits and all that.

Add more tracking, lose the T2 range crystals and get in range.
Capt Sephiroth
#14 - 2013-01-06 17:47:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Capt Sephiroth
I am doing incursions and I am talking about when I am shooting at targets at 105-107km, who are mostly battleships or cruisers. Having 2 tracking computers with optimal scripts and optimal rig fitted, my support gunnery skills are all at V, this brings my optimal with imp navy standard ammo to 97km and I am getting grazes and glances, when i switch to auroras who's optimal to target difference is far greater, more than triple, and I get hits almost 90% of the time, or well often enough for me not to notice those grazing or glancing hits. Would love if someone could test this and tell me if they are having same issue.

Not sure about this but maybe it has something to do that those targets are above the optimal of my standard ammo and under the optimal of the auroras?
Inkarr Hashur
Skyline Federation
#15 - 2013-01-06 17:54:52 UTC
When you're outside optimal sometimes your hits will graze. This isn't news.
Robert Tables
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2013-01-06 18:36:01 UTC
Capt Sephiroth wrote:
Not sure about this but maybe it has something to do that those targets are above the optimal of my standard ammo and under the optimal of the auroras?


That's it exactly.

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Falloff
This page describes how falloff works. To explain it using your numbers:
With Imp Navy Standards, your optimal is 97km, your falloff should be around 25km lacking any further modifications you haven't mentioned.
If your targets are at 106km, you're roughly 36% into your falloff and doing 90% of your possible damage.
If you switch to Aurora crystals, your optimal jumps to 163km, but your falloff stays at 25km. With Aurora crystals, your target is now well within your optimal range, so you should be doing up to your max possible damage.
Capt Sephiroth
#17 - 2013-01-06 19:39:28 UTC
Robert Tables wrote:
Capt Sephiroth wrote:
Not sure about this but maybe it has something to do that those targets are above the optimal of my standard ammo and under the optimal of the auroras?


That's it exactly.

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Falloff
This page describes how falloff works. To explain it using your numbers:
With Imp Navy Standards, your optimal is 97km, your falloff should be around 25km lacking any further modifications you haven't mentioned.
If your targets are at 106km, you're roughly 36% into your falloff and doing 90% of your possible damage.
If you switch to Aurora crystals, your optimal jumps to 163km, but your falloff stays at 25km. With Aurora crystals, your target is now well within your optimal range, so you should be doing up to your max possible damage.


Aw I didn't know that. For some reason I thought that max dps was at optimal mark and as you went above or below your dps goes down and when you break the accuracy falloff your dps is practically 0, which now when i think about it doesn't make any sense.

Thank you for clearing this out for me.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2013-01-06 21:42:41 UTC
Capt Sephiroth wrote:
Robert Tables wrote:
Capt Sephiroth wrote:
Not sure about this but maybe it has something to do that those targets are above the optimal of my standard ammo and under the optimal of the auroras?


That's it exactly.

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Falloff
This page describes how falloff works. To explain it using your numbers:
With Imp Navy Standards, your optimal is 97km, your falloff should be around 25km lacking any further modifications you haven't mentioned.
If your targets are at 106km, you're roughly 36% into your falloff and doing 90% of your possible damage.
If you switch to Aurora crystals, your optimal jumps to 163km, but your falloff stays at 25km. With Aurora crystals, your target is now well within your optimal range, so you should be doing up to your max possible damage.


Aw I didn't know that. For some reason I thought that max dps was at optimal mark and as you went above or below your dps goes down and when you break the accuracy falloff your dps is practically 0, which now when i think about it doesn't make any sense.

Thank you for clearing this out for me.


It does go down under optimum if your guns aren't tracking at that short distance.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#19 - 2013-01-06 21:47:15 UTC
sabre906 wrote:
Capt Sephiroth wrote:
For some reason I thought that max dps was at optimal mark and as you went above or below your dps goes down and when you break the accuracy falloff your dps is practically 0, which now when i think about it doesn't make any sense.

Thank you for clearing this out for me.


It does go down under optimum if your guns aren't tracking at that short distance.


Sigh. Of course. But let's not confuse things further.

Tracking mechanics apply at all ranges but since low range makes transversal higher tracking problems are more noticeable at low ranges.

More importantly, falloff mechanics only apply to range higher than falloff. It's shocking how often people think it's a plus or minus system.
Capt Sephiroth
#20 - 2013-01-07 00:08:27 UTC
Yes, and now I know as well and hopefully can share the knowledge. Big smile
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