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Crime & Punishment

 
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Removing concord

Author
Taoist Dragon
Okata Syndicate
#41 - 2012-12-17 00:37:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Taoist Dragon
Make concord deploy a 'realistic' fleet composition to a crime depending on the number/ship types of the crimainal(s). The fleet comps can be based upon accepted practices etc to allow the criminal to 'fight back'. they should bring fast tackle, ewar, brawlers and support with DPS ships as well to cover all bases. After all they are here to ruin your day.

Lock the system down so the criminals cannot leave the system and have concord call in backup as time goes on. just like a real poilice force.

Concord shouldn't be 'all powerful' and strike you down from mount olympus with bolts of lightning but should deploy 'overwhelming force' when needed to bring a criminal to 'justice'

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.

Risien Drogonne
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2012-12-17 06:37:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Risien Drogonne
El 1974 wrote:

But now Concord is OP. There is no room for 'the good guys' to participate in the conflict between good and bad. They have no reason to organize themselves. That is why Concord should be gradually nerfed to make room for the capsuleers.

This is Eve, not a fantasy novel. There are no "good guys".

Taoist Dragon wrote:
Make concord deploy a 'realistic' fleet composition to a crime depending on the number/ship types of the crimainal(s). The fleet comps can be based upon accepted practices etc to allow the criminal to 'fight back'. they should bring fast tackle, ewar, brawlers and support with DPS ships as well to cover all bases. After all they are here to ruin your day.

Lock the system down so the criminals cannot leave the system and have concord call in backup as time goes on. just like a real poilice force.

Concord shouldn't be 'all powerful' and strike you down from mount olympus with bolts of lightning but should deploy 'overwhelming force' when needed to bring a criminal to 'justice'

Who exactly is this supposed to make the game better for?
Thomas Gore
Blackfyre Enterprise
#43 - 2012-12-17 13:07:50 UTC
Taoist Dragon wrote:
Concord shouldn't be 'all powerful' and strike you down from mount olympus with bolts of lightning


Yes it should. The fact that the offender knows he will 100% certainly lose his ship is the only thing keeping them in check and still some high sec ganks happen every day.

Removing or softening concord would only bring more chaos and disgruntled players. The joy of the griefers and gankers would soon turn into tears as the sheep would disappear in a matter of months and they would be back into killing each others and the occasional sheep wandering into their territory.

In effect, you would make all of EVE low-sec/null-sec and turn it into a PvP game only. The result would be a huge win for all PvP fans, but a net loss to CCP as they would lose a lot of players.
El 1974
Green Visstick High
#44 - 2012-12-17 15:03:33 UTC
Thomas Gore wrote:
Taoist Dragon wrote:
Concord shouldn't be 'all powerful' and strike you down from mount olympus with bolts of lightning

Yes it should. The fact that the offender knows he will 100% certainly lose his ship is the only thing keeping them in check and still some high sec ganks happen every day.
...

It doesn't have to be immediate, nor by Concord. Give players a chance to pick a fight with the offender, at the risk of losing their ship, but also with a chance to score a kill and maybe some rewards.
High sec ganks happen, but are much rarer since Retribution. Many old gankers have found a new hobby in bumping miners.



Pyotr Kamarovi
Out Of The Depths Academy
xX SERENITY Xx
#45 - 2012-12-17 15:15:39 UTC
Risien Drogonne wrote:
Pyotr Kamarovi wrote:


Do you have any idea how awesome that sounds?

I can already picture the removal of CONCORD. The factions decide that they can no longer trust CONCORD to police their systems, and withdraw funding, causing them to become far less potent. Meanwhile, criminals are now hunted down by NPC and PC militia, actively in highsec, but also patrolling in lowsec, with rewards handed out to people who hunt down criminals. Faction warfare escalates to include the conquest of 0.7 and lower systems, with CONCORD as it is today only operating in 0.7 and above, and steadily being cut back further in future patches. Highsec is less safe, but the presence of - destructible - NPC police makes it at least much safer than lowsec.

Oh yah, so awesome Roll

I just can't wait to have "police" show up in my level 4 mission and start shooting me because I didn't pay them a "tax" to be able to mission in a 0.7 system.


Which is when the NPC militia (which would of course be improved) rocks up to smack them (which it should be able to do unless they're pretty organized), they take serious faction standing hits, and get booted from the faction militia if they're in it and violating the law in their faction's space.


Thomas Gore
Blackfyre Enterprise
#46 - 2012-12-17 15:16:43 UTC
El 1974 wrote:
Thomas Gore wrote:
Taoist Dragon wrote:
Concord shouldn't be 'all powerful' and strike you down from mount olympus with bolts of lightning

Yes it should. The fact that the offender knows he will 100% certainly lose his ship is the only thing keeping them in check and still some high sec ganks happen every day.
...

It doesn't have to be immediate, nor by Concord. Give players a chance to pick a fight with the offender, at the risk of losing their ship, but also with a chance to score a kill and maybe some rewards.
High sec ganks happen, but are much rarer since Retribution. Many old gankers have found a new hobby in bumping miners.





Well my point is, if you give the offender a chance to escape with his ship intact, ganks in high-sec will boom.
Marz Ghola
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#47 - 2012-12-18 04:56:17 UTC

While I don't live in high sec, I know what casual gamers are. They don't want to be put to too much bother to enjoy their free time and they happen to comprise the majority income for any game.

High sec will continue to be protected and buffed to protect high sec again and again because ccp wants to stay in business. They have become too successful now because of those casual gamers. If they had such a massive hit to their income, you will then be complaining to empty forums about the lack of people to have loser pvp with in high sec.

You will be doing what many other dying games are doing, flapping your gums about dem olden days and wishing you have people left to shoot and wondering why a new patch/content has not been introduced in over a year.

Nice thing is, eve has only 1 server, so you would not have to worry about servers gradually closing down, you would only have to worry as they extend DT's then try to go F2PP

Take it for what its worth, casual gamers = more content and more profit for ccp = longer game life.

Nylith Empyreal
Sutar Rein
#48 - 2012-12-18 06:01:50 UTC
Like all things structure is needed to support such endeavors. That being said.... structured coding...CCP...finished product... do I need to elaborate?

Who's the more foolish the fool or the fool who replies to him?

Etherealclams
#49 - 2012-12-18 06:02:33 UTC
Drunk dev talk =/= things that will happen in eve.

http://aclamthatrants.blogspot.com/ Read up on my adventures.

Wescro2
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#50 - 2012-12-18 08:52:57 UTC
The idea of player run police will only add to the already powerful appeal of Eve as a player-driven game.

This probably has a ton of flaws but:

My suggestion is to allow player characters to join the Concord NPC corporation. Concord corp members should automatically get a limited engagement flag with any high-sec criminal, and a instant corp bookmark to the location of the crime should be created by Concord dispatch. This will allow them to mass swarm to the location of the crime and do justice.

It shouldn't be much different for the criminal, but instead of CCP NPC bots, it would be players doing the shooting.

On second thought, it's a massive derivation from the games current corp mechanics, but Concord itself is an outlier in an otherwise player driven game.
Thomas Gore
Blackfyre Enterprise
#51 - 2012-12-18 12:40:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Thomas Gore
Wescro2 wrote:
The idea of player run police will only add to the already powerful appeal of Eve as a player-driven game.

This probably has a ton of flaws but:

My suggestion is to allow player characters to join the Concord NPC corporation. Concord corp members should automatically get a limited engagement flag with any high-sec criminal, and a instant corp bookmark to the location of the crime should be created by Concord dispatch. This will allow them to mass swarm to the location of the crime and do justice.

It shouldn't be much different for the criminal, but instead of CCP NPC bots, it would be players doing the shooting.

On second thought, it's a massive derivation from the games current corp mechanics, but Concord itself is an outlier in an otherwise player driven game.


The first thing the gankers learn is to light a false flag at some distant corner of the system and then commit the real crime while the police players are busy warping to the false alarm site. By the time they arrive to the site of the real crime the gankers are already gone and left only a smoking wreck of their victims.

This could probably be somewhat helped by putting a "CALL THE POLICE" button in the UI, which anyone who have been illegally aggressed could push. Again it could be misused, but at least the player misusing it could be punished.

Again, it sounds cool in theory, but history has shown it just won't work, unless there is a huge payout for acting as a police. And if there was, someone would find a way to exploit it.
S'No Flake
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#52 - 2012-12-18 15:13:57 UTC
Shylari Avada wrote:
Risien Drogonne wrote:
Never happen. EVE would lose 2/3 of its subscribers overnight.


EVE would become a better game overnight.


Of course... but only if CCP will have the cold cash to keep the servers running and pay the developers with only 1/3 of their income.

I play another game where all the security is implemented by players... nothing like concord... but the player bases it is way smaller and the game updates come once in a blue moon because there are only 2 devs :)

Choose your poison ... concord or a game with expansions 1/20 of the retribution features every now and then...
Tigris Liono
Konrakas Forged
Solyaris Chtonium
#53 - 2012-12-18 18:23:48 UTC
As stated, removing CONCORD from the game would cause carebear tears, and a massive drop in subs.

I do like the idea of players helping CONCORD deal with criminal offenders.

what about some form of timer on CONCORD dps/reinforcments?

for example, a ganker nukes a little Badger MKII that someone forgot to tank, a single CONCORD ship arrives, locks down (scram, web, and some ECM (but not the total permajam lockdown that occurs now)) the criminal and starts shooting, this starts a timer, where local players can come help out the lone CONCORD ship but after a period of time more CONCORD ships arrive if the target isn't dead yet, steadily ramping up the dps untill either players arrive and help kill the target (or get killed) or enough CONCORD ships arrive to finish off the offender.

CONCORDs own brand of justice will still be served, just slower than it happens now, giving players a chance to join in, maybe have some kind of 'Deputising' mechanic, where you can join CONCORD FW which makes Criminal Beacons show up in the overview allowing you to warp to them.

CONCORD could give out LP based on the ship loss, and the better your CONCORD standing, the further away you can find out about criminal acts (maybe even from 2 or 3 jumps away, if your standing is good enough)

Obviously needs fleshing out a little, but it keeps CONCORD in the game to appease the carebears, and allows the players who like hunting pirates more oppertunities to do so
Risien Drogonne
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#54 - 2012-12-18 20:05:22 UTC
Pyotr Kamarovi wrote:


Which is when the NPC militia (which would of course be improved) rocks up to smack them (which it should be able to do unless they're pretty organized), they take serious faction standing hits, and get booted from the faction militia if they're in it and violating the law in their faction's space.



So in the end you need the enforcement to be done by NPCs anyway. So why bother with all this player stuff in the first place? There's nothing gained and a lot lost.
Elias Greyhand
#55 - 2012-12-18 21:00:34 UTC
The trouble with EVE is the Sandbox Paradox.

You can't have everyone playing their own way because some people just want to be left alone to play without interaction in any meaningful way with other users and others want to kill anything that takes their fancy, such as the aformention people of a less social nature.

The Sandbox is a Lie, in effect and by removing CONCORD you only highlight that even more.

I am, however, for CONCORD being in-universe in such a way that meshes with both the player-driven side of things as well as being simply implemented and sensible.

"That which is done cannot be undone. But it can be avenged."

Minerva Zen
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2012-12-18 22:52:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Minerva Zen
Well, you all have convinced me. In retrospect, my previous stance on this was probably due to my not having enough low-sec experience yet.

Some ideas here are probably still good. What wouldn't be good is player-police. The "Who watches the watchmen?" issue sounds like a devilishly hard social-engineering problem; developer resources should go to improvements that don't cause more problems than they solve.
Thomas Gore
Blackfyre Enterprise
#57 - 2012-12-19 09:22:52 UTC
Tigris Liono wrote:
As stated, removing CONCORD from the game would cause carebear tears, and a massive drop in subs.

I do like the idea of players helping CONCORD deal with criminal offenders.

what about some form of timer on CONCORD dps/reinforcments?

for example, a ganker nukes a little Badger MKII that someone forgot to tank, a single CONCORD ship arrives, locks down (scram, web, and some ECM (but not the total permajam lockdown that occurs now)) the criminal and starts shooting, this starts a timer, where local players can come help out the lone CONCORD ship but after a period of time more CONCORD ships arrive if the target isn't dead yet, steadily ramping up the dps untill either players arrive and help kill the target (or get killed) or enough CONCORD ships arrive to finish off the offender.

CONCORDs own brand of justice will still be served, just slower than it happens now, giving players a chance to join in, maybe have some kind of 'Deputising' mechanic, where you can join CONCORD FW which makes Criminal Beacons show up in the overview allowing you to warp to them.

CONCORD could give out LP based on the ship loss, and the better your CONCORD standing, the further away you can find out about criminal acts (maybe even from 2 or 3 jumps away, if your standing is good enough)

Obviously needs fleshing out a little, but it keeps CONCORD in the game to appease the carebears, and allows the players who like hunting pirates more oppertunities to do so


What purpose would this serve? Give highsec dwellers free kills as the offender will be killed eventually, anyway, and cannot escape?

If on the other hand they would have a chance to escape justice, I come back to my previous statement - highsec ganks would boom into unbelieveable amounts and the carebears would leave EVE in masses.

Again, the only thing that keeps the gankers (mostly) in check is the fact that they KNOW they will lose their ship. Change that knowledge into uncertainty and you will have chaos.
Shylari Avada
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#58 - 2012-12-19 11:27:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Shylari Avada
S'No Flake wrote:
Shylari Avada wrote:
Risien Drogonne wrote:
Never happen. EVE would lose 2/3 of its subscribers overnight.


EVE would become a better game overnight.


Of course... but only if CCP will have the cold cash to keep the servers running and pay the developers with only 1/3 of their income.


Just speculation of course, because I don't know what CCP's total income through 'subscriptions' are, but I would venture a guess that PLEX sale income could easily rival subscription income.

Think about it- every time a PLEX gets destroyed that's free money in their pocket; now go look at the influx of RMT bots blowing up their own ships to 'launder' PLEX.

Am I seriously the only one that sees 50-70 PLEX ships being blown up commonly?
Skartor
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#59 - 2012-12-19 11:56:12 UTC
The thing you guys fail to realise is that the moment concord is absent , th big 0.0 entities will just move in and run empire space like nullsec.
Shylari Avada
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#60 - 2012-12-19 15:12:21 UTC
Skartor wrote:
The thing you guys fail to realise is that the moment concord is absent , th big 0.0 entities will just move in and run empire space like nullsec.


Because we want it, right?