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PI Taxes - Need for a mass petition
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Bongo Twister
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2012-12-16 20:53:13 UTC
For those of you who do PI, do you think the Empire tax rates on uploading to the Customs Office is a bit steep? On level 3 PI materials it approaches 10%. That just seems a bit high to me for an Empire NPC interaction. Does anybody else feel this way? Was wodering if so, we might consider a massive petition on the matter
Inkarr Hashur
Skyline Federation
#2 - 2012-12-16 21:03:43 UTC
Bongo Twister wrote:
For those of you who do PI, do you think the Empire tax rates on uploading to the Customs Office is a bit steep? On level 3 PI materials it approaches 10%. That just seems a bit high to me for an Empire NPC interaction. Does anybody else feel this way? Was wodering if so, we might consider a massive petition on the matter


You're paying for the privilege of running a largely-automated (no jobs producing) polluting industrial enterprise on a planet housing hundreds of millions of people :P
Mirac Factar
Hypergolic
#3 - 2012-12-16 22:55:21 UTC
Empire PI is pretty much 100% risk free, if anything the taxes should be higher than they are in 0.5-1.0 (and lower in 0.1-0.4) to encourage people to move to lowsec.

I have 3 characters with maxxed PI skills all operating in empire (for the moment, used to all be in WH space) and the returns on empire PI are too high relative to the risk they involve.
Styth spiting
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2012-12-17 00:37:48 UTC
The tax levels are fine in my opinion and I spend around 1.5B per month in PI taxes.

The problem is that the tax values do not reflect the actual PI materials based on any material market price. For example if you export and import bacterial onto another planet it will cost you 75isk per unit. But you can buy bacteria on the market for between 80isk - 110isk. You're basically paying 50% export tax based on the current market value.

Keep the 10% but CCP should do what they did with crime watch and faction warfare and based each items value based on a period of time of market sales. This way you wouldn't be paying 95% of a materials value on 15% of import/export costs.
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2012-12-17 02:10:38 UTC
Bongo Twister wrote:
For those of you who do PI, do you think the Empire tax rates on uploading to the Customs Office is a bit steep? On level 3 PI materials it approaches 10%. That just seems a bit high to me for an Empire NPC interaction. Does anybody else feel this way? Was wodering if so, we might consider a massive petition on the matter


The taxes were set when customs offices were redone a year ago and the tax rate was set that way on purpose. CCP isn't going to change it. If you want lower taxes go to low/0.0/WH.

I would agree though that taxes should be tied better to PI prices, maybe at least update quarterly or something.
Foxglove Digitalis
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#6 - 2012-12-17 09:49:21 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:
I would agree though that taxes should be tied better to PI prices, maybe at least update quarterly or something.


Could make it regional too, since you have to be in system to transfer goods in the customs station it could quite easily lookup the regional price over previous x months and take the percentage off.
Also gives another set of variables for the spreadsheet pilots to game for max profit.
Zifrian
The Frog Pond
Ribbit.
#7 - 2012-12-17 12:59:10 UTC
They aren't a problem. Good change IMO

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Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#8 - 2012-12-17 14:11:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Krixtal Icefluxor
Mirac Factar wrote:
Empire PI is pretty much 100% risk free, if anything the taxes should be higher than they are in 0.5-1.0 (and lower in 0.1-0.4) to encourage people to move to lowsec.




It'd be great if you knew how it reallly worked.

Independent Corps own and set the taxes in Low. 2 Planets I pick up from have the full 20%. I try to avoid them, but these I had to use (only Plasmas anywhere near).

Also, they can be destroyed and your facility trapped into uselessness. See Mahnaugh system where every single POCO was taken out and not replaced. System now PI dead.

THAT's how it works.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#9 - 2012-12-17 14:14:57 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:

If you want lower taxes go to low/0.0/WH.




Only in rare cases. Would help if you actually did PI there and knew, so you could actually post truths.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Ginger Barbarella
#10 - 2012-12-17 14:56:04 UTC
Bongo Twister wrote:
For those of you who do PI, do you think the Empire tax rates on uploading to the Customs Office is a bit steep? On level 3 PI materials it approaches 10%. That just seems a bit high to me for an Empire NPC interaction. Does anybody else feel this way? Was wodering if so, we might consider a massive petition on the matter


Do the math from square One to final sale. I'd be THRILLED if my taxes in high sec production were ONLY 10% of costs overall.

But yeah, math is hard, huh?

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
Toku Jiang
Jiang Laboratories and Discovery
#11 - 2012-12-17 14:57:20 UTC
Empire PI taxes of 10% are fine. Your still making a boat load of money at 10% with very little time investment, or isk investment, and there is zero risk unless your corp has a war dec on it, if your doing it right. As for the "problem" with low-sec or null sec POCO's, well it's just like anything else out there, it can get blown up. Could these mechanics be improved? Yes, will they improve them? Who knows.

What I can tell you is if your in a decent alliance doing PI for 0% taxes can make you a lot of money as those planets produce much better than high sec planets. You can make virtually billions of isk in pure profits this way, with your only cost being jump fuel for a cap ship to move the bulk volume, or you could go cheaper and run with a blockade runner. Oh that and the cost of defending this space, so in actuallity your probably paying more than 10% of the PI value doing this.

Either way it's gravy money and again, if you do it right, you have very little invested in a PI setup compared to a POS setup or buying a bunch of BPO's doing manufacturing.
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#12 - 2012-12-17 15:57:41 UTC
Bongo Twister wrote:
For those of you who do PI, do you think the Empire tax rates on uploading to the Customs Office is a bit steep? On level 3 PI materials it approaches 10%. That just seems a bit high to me for an Empire NPC interaction. Does anybody else feel this way? Was wodering if so, we might consider a massive petition on the matter

yes taxes are 10% in high sec. But they are I believe 17% in low, null, and W-space for the interbus customs offices, If there are any left. Tax rates are player set for any POCO's up to 20%. If you are not friendly with the corp that owns the POCO you will most likely still pay over 10%.

This change was made a long time ago, and the market has long since stabilized on PI products. This is the price you pay for doing PI in high sec. It takes very little effort for a decent isk return even after paying the taxes. If not then you are doing it wrong.

The days of running 5-6 factory planets in high sec and importing all your P1 with zero extraction for massive profits are over. This is still the highest income from PI, but takes the most time and work and the taxes hit you hard.
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#13 - 2012-12-17 16:06:53 UTC
Sooooooooooo. Um.... How's the mass petitioning going so far ? Cool

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2012-12-17 16:21:02 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Derath Ellecon wrote:

If you want lower taxes go to low/0.0/WH.




Only in rare cases. Would help if you actually did PI there and knew, so you could actually post truths.



Our WH POCO's are set at a nice low tax rate, so yes i know.

Given that the ONLY place you can set a player owned customs office is low/0.0/WH, AND given that a POCO is the only way to have a configurable tax rate, it is a truth that it is your only option of getting a lower tax on your PI.

I didn't say it would be easy, but it is the only option for lowering your PI taxes.
Mitchel Rei
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2012-12-18 04:54:50 UTC
Come enjoy low tax rates at customs offices in Pakkonen. We have two planets for advanced PI at low rates. Only 4 jumps from Jita.

- MR
Bongo Twister
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2012-12-18 05:33:52 UTC
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
Bongo Twister wrote:
For those of you who do PI, do you think the Empire tax rates on uploading to the Customs Office is a bit steep? On level 3 PI materials it approaches 10%. That just seems a bit high to me for an Empire NPC interaction. Does anybody else feel this way? Was wodering if so, we might consider a massive petition on the matter


Do the math from square One to final sale. I'd be THRILLED if my taxes in high sec production were ONLY 10% of costs overall.

But yeah, math is hard, huh?


I was only referencing the export cost of T3 materials. Keep in mind I have to pay export and import costs on four separate T1 materials to make those T3 mats. So the final total is more likely closer to 20%. Obviously I am alone in this opinion which is ok.

I would counter that Empire miners can conduct business that is eqaully low risk at a tax rate of 5% or less.

With the PI markets stabilizing, it is not as lucrative as it was at the beginning. I still beleive the rates are excessive compared to other Empire isk making routes (mining, PvE, etc)

Thanks for all the replies
Styth spiting
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2012-12-18 07:57:18 UTC
Bongo Twister wrote:
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
Bongo Twister wrote:
For those of you who do PI, do you think the Empire tax rates on uploading to the Customs Office is a bit steep? On level 3 PI materials it approaches 10%. That just seems a bit high to me for an Empire NPC interaction. Does anybody else feel this way? Was wodering if so, we might consider a massive petition on the matter


Do the math from square One to final sale. I'd be THRILLED if my taxes in high sec production were ONLY 10% of costs overall.

But yeah, math is hard, huh?


I was only referencing the export cost of T3 materials. Keep in mind I have to pay export and import costs on four separate T1 materials to make those T3 mats. So the final total is more likely closer to 20%. Obviously I am alone in this opinion which is ok.

I would counter that Empire miners can conduct business that is eqaully low risk at a tax rate of 5% or less.

With the PI markets stabilizing, it is not as lucrative as it was at the beginning. I still beleive the rates are excessive compared to other Empire isk making routes (mining, PvE, etc)

Thanks for all the replies



If they dropped the tax by 5% the value of PI items would drop 5%. Lowering the costs will not increase the isk you make, the market price would simply change the reflect the decrease in taxes.
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#18 - 2012-12-20 07:14:09 UTC  |  Edited by: corestwo
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Derath Ellecon wrote:

If you want lower taxes go to low/0.0/WH.




Only in rare cases. Would help if you actually did PI there and knew, so you could actually post truths.


Seeing as our planets offer a considerably higher extraction yield than highsec planets do, our members are happy to pay a 15% tax that goes towards reimbursements and other such things. They make good money regardless.

By the way, when were you quitting the game again?

Styth spiting wrote:
Bongo Twister wrote:


I was only referencing the export cost of T3 materials. Keep in mind I have to pay export and import costs on four separate T1 materials to make those T3 mats. So the final total is more likely closer to 20%. Obviously I am alone in this opinion which is ok.

I would counter that Empire miners can conduct business that is eqaully low risk at a tax rate of 5% or less.

With the PI markets stabilizing, it is not as lucrative as it was at the beginning. I still beleive the rates are excessive compared to other Empire isk making routes (mining, PvE, etc)

Thanks for all the replies



If they dropped the tax by 5% the value of PI items would drop 5%. Lowering the costs will not increase the isk you make, the market price would simply change the reflect the decrease in taxes.

Yeah, this. The only reason PI was "as lucrative as it was at the beginning" was because it was new. The fact that it's less profitable now is because it's not new, because you empire dwellers have squeezed it down, just like everything else. This would have happened regardless of the tax rate.

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo
Piugattuk
Litla Sundlaugin
#19 - 2012-12-20 16:32:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Piugattuk
Mirac Factar wrote:
Empire PI is pretty much 100% risk free, if anything the taxes should be higher than they are in 0.5-1.0 (and lower in 0.1-0.4) to encourage people to move to lowsec.

I have 3 characters with maxxed PI skills all operating in empire (for the moment, used to all be in WH space) and the returns on empire PI are too high relative to the risk they involve.


Nothing is risk free gankers see to that, but here's the thing, the profits from HI sec PI really aren't worth squat, I quit PI because between the taxes, time and trouble it's no longer worth the trouble, I just go on my merry way doing other pursuits.

And the goonfleet toon above shouldn't flap about hi sec dwellers, when goonswarm broke the bank in FW and made off with insane LP and isk, so much so that it was well publicized that each member was given 100 billion each...
fofofo
Dramaticus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#20 - 2012-12-20 16:41:56 UTC
I think given the massive advantages and safety Empire production is given that it wouldn't be unreasonable for all empire tax rates to be hiked into the 30-40% range.

The 'do-nothing' member of the GoonSwarm Economic Warfare Cabal

The edge is REALLY hard to see at times but it DOES exist and in this case we were looking at a situation where a new feature created for all of our customers was being virtually curbstomped by five of them
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