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You CANT Nerf HighSec!

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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#121 - 2012-12-16 23:21:22 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
You know something is wrong when a single high sec system has more industry slots than entire regions of null.

No that's fine because we don't produce out here anyway.

Nerf mineral compression, by the way.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#122 - 2012-12-16 23:25:50 UTC
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
Stopped reading at "null player"... WTF is a "null player"?!?!? Are you talking about nullbears?!? Or those l337 null sec'ers who never talk about the brigade of high sec alts that make all their money?

Oh, and wall of text blah blah blah Search Function blah blah nerf blah blah...


lol +1

Half of my toons (all slots filled on 4 accounts) operate in high sec. So as a High Sec resident I say nerf me please :) :) .
Felicity Love
Doomheim
#123 - 2012-12-16 23:34:48 UTC
Sweeeet Geeebus....

I don't think I've laughed so hard since Riverini (sp) made his famous "bj" comment about "communications" on EVE Radio....


LolLolLolLol

"EVE is dying." -- The Four Forum Trolls of the Apocalypse.   ( Pick four, any four. They all smell.  )
Nylith Empyreal
Sutar Rein
#124 - 2012-12-16 23:55:52 UTC
nullsec tried to destroy the metal...

Who's the more foolish the fool or the fool who replies to him?
Shylari Avada
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#125 - 2012-12-17 00:53:52 UTC
Nylith Empyreal wrote:
nullsec tried to destroy the metal...


LowSec tried to DEFILE the metal- but LowSec was proven WROOOOONNNGGG..
Xavier Hasberin
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#126 - 2012-12-17 01:08:42 UTC
Some random thoughts:

1) I can't remember any other game where players essentially carved out a large chunk of the 'high end', locked everyone else out who wasn't willing to PvP for it, and then demanded the MMO creators bless their enterprise with the best of everything the rest of the game(they deliberately turned their back on) had to offer. In another time, that might be called 'the height of folly' or 'hubris'.

2) The biggest problem with the economy is that everyone participates in it - there is no 'slack', all items are available to everyone, and there is no 'cost of living' in the game. That makes any buff/nerf made affect everyone, whereas in other games changes can be made to 'high end' gear and economies with a minimal reaction in 'low end'.

3a) I've dipped my toe into lowsec and W-space, but never into null, simply because I can much more easily reach lowsec spaces that are not crowded and because I can find wormholes anywhere in high sec. I (and most other players, I would assume) don't bother with null because it's already well-known that there's not any spot in null for the solo explorer or the person who doesn't want to be part of a huge alliance and PvP constantly. Too much risk, no reward. You can't fault people in highsec for following the core principle of the game.

3b) Although I spend the majority of my time in highsec, as I've mentioned, I also spend time in W-space and lowsec, and we know well enough that many lowsec/nullseccers also spend a great deal of time in highsec. I doubt it helps your arguments about the high sec economy to refer to it's players as 'carebears' when it seems to me that a large population moves in and out of high and lowsec according to what they want to do at that moment.
Bump Truck
Doomheim
#127 - 2012-12-17 01:09:43 UTC


What is it with people saying "I only read until [insert arbitrary text here] and then I stopped as I knew you were an [insert insult]".

This is completely absurd. If you don't want to read it then don't.

If you do, read the whole thing, contemplate it a bit and then post something thoughtful in response, and if you have nothing thoughtful to say then say nothing.



Thank you to everyone who has been civil and posted something considered. I appreciate it.
Bump Truck
Doomheim
#128 - 2012-12-17 01:13:07 UTC
Xavier Hasberin wrote:
I doubt it helps your arguments about the high sec economy to refer to it's players as 'carebears' when it seems to me that a large population moves in and out of high and lowsec according to what they want to do at that moment.



Interesting points, thanks.

I very carefully avoid using the word "carebear" as it is derogatory. I guess others in this thread may have used it but I don't.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#129 - 2012-12-17 01:14:58 UTC
Xavier Hasberin wrote:
I (and most other players, I would assume) don't bother with null because it's already well-known that there's not any spot in null for the solo explorer or the person who doesn't want to be part of a huge alliance and PvP constantly. Too much risk, no reward. You can't fault people in highsec for following the core principle of the game.

Too much risk, no reward seems to be ~the thing~.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Ginger Barbarella
#130 - 2012-12-17 01:20:29 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
You know something is wrong when a single high sec system has more industry slots than entire regions of null.


But null sec is empty--- wait, is it still empty today?? I can't keep up with whether it's empty or not, fun or not, profitable or not...

But I should just wait until tomorrow. I'm sure another loser will post about how null is empty and/or high sec needs to be nerfed because of--- whatever the excuse is this week.

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
Xavier Hasberin
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#131 - 2012-12-17 01:29:52 UTC
Bump Truck wrote:
Xavier Hasberin wrote:
I doubt it helps your arguments about the high sec economy to refer to it's players as 'carebears' when it seems to me that a large population moves in and out of high and lowsec according to what they want to do at that moment.



Interesting points, thanks.

I very carefully avoid using the word "carebear" as it is derogatory. I guess others in this thread may have used it but I don't.


Noticed that. I did want to bring up something you said in the OP, though.

Quote:
6) I pay my subscription so I should be able to play however I want, it’s a SANDBOX.

- This is not the meaning of a sandbox, I pay my sub too, can I have a ship that respawns? No, because it would be too damaging to industry. In the same way a super safe High Sec with massive rewards is too damaging to the rest of the game and overall balance.

7) If High Sec were nerfed ship costs would increase massively and that is bad.

- The absolute price of ships doesn’t really matter, what matters is how much effort it takes to get set up with a ship that can compete, whether a battleship or a mining barge. With a more dynamic eco-system outside High Sec the barriers to entry for all professions would be lower and so the fact that an individual ship costs more would not matter.

8) High Sec is the empire and null is the wildlands, so the industry should be in High.

- Actually there are very stable empires in null built by the hard work of many people and yet they cannot sustain a fraction of the industry that is handed, for free, to High Sec. This is a great detriment to the game and a bad message to future players, “don’t work hard, you can’t do better than staying in the system you started in”.

- For Risk and Reward to balance an area that is safe should be low value, and a dangerous area should be high value, having a high value safe area distorts everything and spoils a fundamental mechanic of the game, no wonder 71% of people live in High Sec.


Italics are mine, of course. My questions are these:

1) If you truly believe that safe places should have lower rewards, then why should places made safe by players have better rewards? Yes, effort is put in. For that effort, however, you get substantial rewards from your company, and now you're demanding industrial capacity equal to the high sec areas that you claim are broken. Surely you can see why people don't look at it as a fair proposition.

2) There's a thread running through all these posts - one that states implicitly that 'high seccers' don't deserve nor should have the best of anything because of their playstyle/choices. However, no one forced you at gunpoint to move to null sec and join an alliance. Turning the question around, why should my game be changed for the worse because you made what you now must perceive to be a bad choice?

3) My rough analogy to lowsec/highsec is, like most people, the Wild West of the 19th Century versus the populated East. Yes, even in the deepest areas of the Wild West, there were relative pockets of tranquility where people could live much more safely than in the wild on their own. None of them, however, had the industrial capabilities of the East. There was no Piedmont or anything like it in most of the West, and even to this day, more than 100 years after settling the West was a done deal, there are large swaths of the country that don't support heavy industry. Why shouldn't EVE mirror that reality?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#132 - 2012-12-17 01:33:48 UTC
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
You know something is wrong when a single high sec system has more industry slots than entire regions of null.


But null sec is empty--- wait, is it still empty today?? I can't keep up with whether it's empty or not, fun or not, profitable or not...

But I should just wait until tomorrow. I'm sure another loser will post about how null is empty and/or high sec needs to be nerfed because of--- whatever the excuse is this week.


When it comes to high sec vs 0.0 industry high sec wins hands down. Its cheaper to build in empire and just ship it out. Hell, its cheaper to just buy in jita and ship it out.
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#133 - 2012-12-17 01:37:58 UTC
" Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic"

Nullbear alt is obvious.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#134 - 2012-12-17 01:41:03 UTC
Xavier Hasberin wrote:
Why shouldn't EVE mirror that reality?

Yeah, I hear real life is really imbalanced. RL is dying, just like EVE.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#135 - 2012-12-17 01:54:21 UTC
Bump Truck wrote:
A nerf doesn’t mean taking away any activities, it simply means making them less profitable. If missions paid 1% less they would still be worth it, what if it was 10% or 15%? You can still mine if the roids yield 8% less ore per cycle. You can do everything you can do now, just for less profit.


8% this year, another 8% next year, and another 8% the year after that... you're not fooling anyone.


Bump Truck wrote:
Many players who live in null are involved in trade and industry, many of them have allies and friends, they don’t just shoot everyone they see for no reason.


Actually, yes they do. NBSI.


Bump Truck wrote:
Maybe if you wander in unannounced. Many players live in null quite happily, it’s a case of knowing how to survive there and making some friends and it’s really not too hard.


"Making friends" is an interesting way to say "Swearing Fealty."


Bump Truck wrote:
The safety of some regions of null is the result of the great efforts of many well organised, dedicated players. The fact their space is safe is a result of their hard work. Many alliances now recruit new players, this would be more common if industry were more viable in null.


See above.


Bump Truck wrote:
Again a solo retriever is a tempting target but a combined fleet of PVPers and miners/PVEers with warp core stabilisers and scouts would be much harder to take down. Again it’s feasible; it just requires some skill and some friends.


So which petty nullsec kingdom is this alt of yours really trying to recruit for, wonders I.



http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#136 - 2012-12-17 01:54:45 UTC
Bump Truck wrote:
This is not the meaning of a sandbox, I pay my sub too, can I have a ship that respawns? No, because it would be too damaging to industry. In the same way a super safe High Sec with massive rewards is too damaging to the rest of the game and overall balance.


A ship that respawns would be changing the rules just to suit your own particular idea of how the game should be played. You know, like when a nullbear wants to nerf hisec.


Bump Truck wrote:
The absolute price of ships doesn’t really matter, what matters is how much effort it takes to get set up with a ship that can compete, whether a battleship or a mining barge. With a more dynamic eco-system outside High Sec the barriers to entry for all professions would be lower and so the fact that an individual ship costs more would not matter.


Because money is irrelevant when you've got bots running sov sites and mining 23/7 for you. What, you think we don't know what's going on out there?


Bump Truck wrote:
Actually there are very stable empires in null built by the hard work of many people and yet they cannot sustain a fraction of the industry that is handed, for free, to High Sec.


So null industry sucks and, as always, your solution is to make hisec industry suck just as much. I hope for your sake that you never break a leg, because it's going to be hard to explain to your doctors how breaking your other one on purpose so they'd match was a good idea.


Bump Truck wrote:
For Risk and Reward to balance an area that is safe should be low value, and a dangerous area should be high value, having a high value safe area distorts everything and spoils a fundamental mechanic of the game, no wonder 71% of people live in High Sec.


Oh but we're all just nullsec alts, remember? Didn't you get the nullbear propaganda book?


Bump Truck wrote:
The fact that 71% of toons live in High Sec is a clear indication that it is too good and may be in need of a Nerf.


The fact that 71% of what you eat is pepperoni hot pockets is a clear indication that you need to become a vegetarian.


http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#137 - 2012-12-17 01:55:03 UTC
Bump Truck wrote:
Industrialists don’t want big piles of ore and ships, they want to sell them for ISK, the people who buy them are the ones who had ships destroyed because they took a risk and were unlucky. So the whole industrial market is the players, PVPers and PVEers everywhere. Asking to be left alone makes no sense, we’re all in this together.


And thus by nerfing industry you nerf everyone.


Bump Truck wrote:
it really isn’t, diversity in the game is obviously really important, the vast majority of players specialise and that is a good thing. This is about balancing the regions of the game.


Get this through your head: They're not supposed to be balanced. In one sentence you say that it's great how people in EvE aren't all the same, and then in the next you say how we should be all the same.


Bump Truck wrote:
No player caused the problems null is now facing.


No one player did. All of them together did. CCP made null a place where players got to make & live by their own rules. Sorry if you're drowning in your own excrement now. How does the saying go? "Drop a Libertarian into Somalia?"


Bump Truck wrote:
This isn’t an emotional argument it’s about balancing game dynamics. There are trolls and griefers in EVE, that’s part of it, this isn’t by or about them.


But it certainly is by them.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#138 - 2012-12-17 01:59:04 UTC
Xavier Hasberin wrote:

3) My rough analogy to lowsec/highsec is, like most people, the Wild West of the 19th Century versus the populated East. Yes, even in the deepest areas of the Wild West, there were relative pockets of tranquility where people could live much more safely than in the wild on their own. None of them, however, had the industrial capabilities of the East. There was no Piedmont or anything like it in most of the West, and even to this day, more than 100 years after settling the West was a done deal, there are large swaths of the country that don't support heavy industry. Why shouldn't EVE mirror that reality?



CCP made a new "Wild West" in the form of wormholes, and set in place a lot of mechanics that people had been asking for as a Wild West setting. No blob, hotdrops, station games or local. And nullsec or better quality PvE/farming opportunities.

Sov nullsec on the other hand is now more about player empire building. However, the empire building tools are limited to what has been best described as heavily armed mining camps.

Eve shouldn't mirror that reality because it is boring, limiting, and this is a spaceship game in the distant future, not some 19th century wild west role playing game.
Dominic karin
Versatility Production Corporation' LLC
#139 - 2012-12-17 02:09:12 UTC
Bump Truck wrote:
Taria Katelo wrote:
didnt read the huge wall of text you posted because if someone needs so many words to explain his opinion, then he is wrong anyways.


lol, ok that's absurd, but to respond to the point you made

Taria Katelo wrote:

now to your TL;DR. if you give stats, at least post from where you made them up. because 71% of players in highsec can just as well mean that most people just have their alts stationed in highsec.



It's from the fanfest 2012 state of the economy video which can be found here. You are right, maybe it would be fair to say "toons" rather than "players" when referring to where people live. However every toon has a player behind it, even if that player has many toons.


Out of my 5 characters 4 of them live in hisec 1 lives in a wormhole.

3 of them are market hub alts the other one is a pvper I use to essentially, spend all my money but he doesn't really do too much in hisec. Just because the character lives in hisec doesn't mean I do anything with that character nor do I use the character in hisec when I do use the character.

Moral of the story is that 4 of my 5 characters live in hisec but I don't make money on any of the 4.
Heathyr O'Halloran
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#140 - 2012-12-17 02:55:46 UTC
Taria Katelo wrote:
didnt read the huge wall of text you posted



Someone needs to look up what a wall of text is. I will help you out. http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Wall_of_Text

That is a wall of text.