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Missile Nerf = Another CCP Derp Moment

Author
Super Fresh Taco
Doomheim
#1 - 2012-11-14 18:59:05 UTC
The one thing caldari cruisers do, such as the Tengu, is put dps downfield. Anytime you start fitting one out for pvp you start loosing tank. Once you fit prop mods, scrams, etc, you loose tank. Need I remind you that none of the other empires have this problem. In the end, all you are doing is taking away the ONE THING caldari cruisers do well.

They're not designed to brawl like other cruisers, they run as fire support. So thanks again CCP for looking at the big picture, and paying attention to the mechanics you've designed.
Super Chalupa
Bareback Pornstars
#2 - 2012-11-14 19:02:06 UTC
Thumbs up to this, if people have a problem with the missile range, then, um, er . . . . send someone out there to kill the ship, derp
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#3 - 2012-11-14 19:05:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Gizznitt Malikite
Super Fresh Taco wrote:
The one thing caldari cruisers do, such as the Tengu, is put dps downfield. Anytime you start fitting one out for pvp you start loosing tank. Once you fit prop mods, scrams, etc, you loose tank. Need I remind you that none of the other empires have this problem. In the end, all you are doing is taking away the ONE THING caldari cruisers do well.

They're not designed to brawl like other cruisers, they run as fire support. So thanks again CCP for looking at the big picture, and paying attention to the mechanics you've designed.


Don't be so oblivious....

The missile changes are by far for the good... Tengu's will still be extremely viable PvP ships, and now TC's and TE's boost all missiles!!

All shield ships sacrifice some tank when fitting EWAR, but they get extra damage and increased speed thanks to their lows.
Likewise, all amor ships sacrifice damage and speed when fitting tank, but get extra EWAR thanks to their mids.

Nothing about that scenario is changing....
Super Chalupa
Bareback Pornstars
#4 - 2012-11-14 19:11:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Super Chalupa
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:


All shield ships sacrifice some tank when fitting EWAR, but they get extra damage and increased speed thanks to their lows.
Likewise, all amor ships sacrifice damage and speed when fitting tank, but get extra EWAR thanks to their mids.

Nothing about that scenario is changing....



Um, armor ships don't sacrifice any tank when fitting for speed, can we say mid slots? The system isn't broken the way it is right now, no need to adjust anything.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#5 - 2012-11-14 19:56:09 UTC
Super Chalupa wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:


All shield ships sacrifice some tank when fitting EWAR, but they get extra damage and increased speed thanks to their lows.
Likewise, all amor ships sacrifice damage and speed when fitting tank, but get extra EWAR thanks to their mids.

Nothing about that scenario is changing....



Um, armor ships don't sacrifice any tank when fitting for speed, can we say mid slots? The system isn't broken the way it is right now, no need to adjust anything.


When fitting for PvP, there are typically 2 modules that are ubiquitously needed:
A.) A prop mod.
B.) A tackle mod.

When tanking a ship for PvP, there is typically one module that is ubiquitously used: A DCU.

This is how it is now, this is how it will be in the future... and your entire diatribe on shield vs armor and caldari tanking is completely irrelevant to this.

Amror ships sacrifice speed for tank:
Armor plates increase your align times and decrease your speed... making you slower...
Armor rigs decrease your speed, making you slower....
Propulsion upgrades like nanofibers and overdrives compete for low slot which are used for armor tanking...

Armor tanks sacrifice dps for tank:
Armor tanks require significantly more PG, which often requires reducing the size of your guns, and hence your dps.
Weapon damage modules compete for low slots which are used for armor tanking...

In contrast, shield modules and rigs don't come with speed/agility penalties. They don't compete for lowslots, which can then be filled with damage and propulsion upgrade modules, and they are typically aren't PG limited, meaning fitting weapons is easier.

And none of this is changing with retribution. Retribution is IMPROVING missiles, by taking away t2 ammo penalties, by allowing TE's and TC's to improve missile damage, and by allowing all missiles skills (like guided missile precision) to benefit all missile weapons (like torpedoes and Heavy Assault missiles). Sure, you lose some range on your heavy missiles, but you have to be ignorant to think that the upcoming changes are overall bad for missile users....
Luc Chastot
#6 - 2012-11-14 20:29:53 UTC
Super Chalupa wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:


All shield ships sacrifice some tank when fitting EWAR, but they get extra damage and increased speed thanks to their lows.
Likewise, all amor ships sacrifice damage and speed when fitting tank, but get extra EWAR thanks to their mids.

Nothing about that scenario is changing....



Um, armor ships don't sacrifice any tank when fitting for speed, can we say mid slots? The system isn't broken the way it is right now, no need to adjust anything.


If you want to fit for speed, then armor is not the way to go. I assume that was one of your derp moments.

Make it idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot.

Mortake
Malevelon Roe Industries
#7 - 2012-11-14 20:46:31 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Super Chalupa wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:


All shield ships sacrifice some tank when fitting EWAR, but they get extra damage and increased speed thanks to their lows.
Likewise, all amor ships sacrifice damage and speed when fitting tank, but get extra EWAR thanks to their mids.

Nothing about that scenario is changing....



Um, armor ships don't sacrifice any tank when fitting for speed, can we say mid slots? The system isn't broken the way it is right now, no need to adjust anything.


When fitting for PvP, there are typically 2 modules that are ubiquitously needed:
A.) A prop mod.
B.) A tackle mod.

When tanking a ship for PvP, there is typically one module that is ubiquitously used: A DCU.

This is how it is now, this is how it will be in the future... and your entire diatribe on shield vs armor and caldari tanking is completely irrelevant to this.

Amror ships sacrifice speed for tank:
Armor plates increase your align times and decrease your speed... making you slower...
Armor rigs decrease your speed, making you slower....
Propulsion upgrades like nanofibers and overdrives compete for low slot which are used for armor tanking...

Armor tanks sacrifice dps for tank:
Armor tanks require significantly more PG, which often requires reducing the size of your guns, and hence your dps.
Weapon damage modules compete for low slots which are used for armor tanking...

In contrast, shield modules and rigs don't come with speed/agility penalties. They don't compete for lowslots, which can then be filled with damage and propulsion upgrade modules, and they are typically aren't PG limited, meaning fitting weapons is easier.

And none of this is changing with retribution. Retribution is IMPROVING missiles, by taking away t2 ammo penalties, by allowing TE's and TC's to improve missile damage, and by allowing all missiles skills (like guided missile precision) to benefit all missile weapons (like torpedoes and Heavy Assault missiles). Sure, you lose some range on your heavy missiles, but you have to be ignorant to think that the upcoming changes are overall bad for missile users....


Shield tanked ships sacrifice the utility in the midslots for their tank unlike armor tanked ships. The upside to that is they use their lows to increase their damage.

Also, want to point out that for Retribution the TC and TE changes have been taken out
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#8 - 2012-11-14 21:16:20 UTC
Mortake wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Super Chalupa wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:


All shield ships sacrifice some tank when fitting EWAR, but they get extra damage and increased speed thanks to their lows.
Likewise, all amor ships sacrifice damage and speed when fitting tank, but get extra EWAR thanks to their mids.

Nothing about that scenario is changing....



Um, armor ships don't sacrifice any tank when fitting for speed, can we say mid slots? The system isn't broken the way it is right now, no need to adjust anything.


When fitting for PvP, there are typically 2 modules that are ubiquitously needed:
A.) A prop mod.
B.) A tackle mod.

When tanking a ship for PvP, there is typically one module that is ubiquitously used: A DCU.

This is how it is now, this is how it will be in the future... and your entire diatribe on shield vs armor and caldari tanking is completely irrelevant to this.

Amror ships sacrifice speed for tank:
Armor plates increase your align times and decrease your speed... making you slower...
Armor rigs decrease your speed, making you slower....
Propulsion upgrades like nanofibers and overdrives compete for low slot which are used for armor tanking...

Armor tanks sacrifice dps for tank:
Armor tanks require significantly more PG, which often requires reducing the size of your guns, and hence your dps.
Weapon damage modules compete for low slots which are used for armor tanking...

In contrast, shield modules and rigs don't come with speed/agility penalties. They don't compete for lowslots, which can then be filled with damage and propulsion upgrade modules, and they are typically aren't PG limited, meaning fitting weapons is easier.

And none of this is changing with retribution. Retribution is IMPROVING missiles, by taking away t2 ammo penalties, by allowing TE's and TC's to improve missile damage, and by allowing all missiles skills (like guided missile precision) to benefit all missile weapons (like torpedoes and Heavy Assault missiles). Sure, you lose some range on your heavy missiles, but you have to be ignorant to think that the upcoming changes are overall bad for missile users....


Shield tanked ships sacrifice the utility in the midslots for their tank unlike armor tanked ships. The upside to that is they use their lows to increase their damage.

Also, want to point out that for Retribution the TC and TE changes have been taken out


My main point is that none of the retribution changes change the Shield vs Armor tanking scenarios from what it is now (unless you're using asb's).

I missed the update about the TC and TE changes being pushed back to a future release... thank you for pointing that out.

Still, they are still on the table for future releases. So, while Heavy Missiles are getting a small nerf, HAMS and Torps are getting a nice buff (via skills and implants). In short, if you're down on this expansion because of a minor nerf to HM's, you can cry me a river. The change is well deserved, and I overwhelmingly approve of CCP's current direction!



Cedric Zateki
Nocturnal Wonderland
#9 - 2012-11-16 04:22:36 UTC
Once the changes are in place I believe people will cry about how unfair the Caldari suddenly became.

Tengus will lose raw DPS, however the ability to control more missile explosion velocity far outweighs the 10% damage nerf. Faster explosions means less speed tanking working and smaller explosion radius means even more overwhelming damage is actually applied to ships with smaller signature radius.

Skills applied like Gizznitt mentioned also make the Tengu even more powerful. HAM's with extended ranges, reduced explosion radius and faster explosions? Yes please!
Valleria Darkmoon
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#10 - 2012-11-16 05:52:28 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
And none of this is changing with retribution. Retribution is IMPROVING missiles, by taking away t2 ammo penalties, by allowing TE's and TC's to improve missile damage, and by allowing all missiles skills (like guided missile precision) to benefit all missile weapons (like torpedoes and Heavy Assault missiles). Sure, you lose some range on your heavy missiles, but you have to be ignorant to think that the upcoming changes are overall bad for missile users....


Up until now I had never trained missiles on this character and flew Gallente/Amarr ships almost exclusively, ships like the Sacrilege and the HAM Drake were always at least a little appealing to me but I never did get around to training them. Then I saw the missile rebalance thread. In other words, I dumped 4 million SP worth of missile training into my head FOR Retribution and I'm not done with it yet.

Though last I checked the TC/TE affecting missiles as well as the TDs affecting missiles changes were shelved for this expansion, though I'd be even happier if this were not the case.

Only heavy missiles ate nerfs and they needed them, I went into this at length in the missile rebalance thread some time ago and I will not re-write my book for you here. All other missiles got buffed and only a fixation on heavy missiles could make you not see it. With the reduction in grid needed for HAMs you may even be able to make a really nice HAM Tengu in Retribution.

As for tanking Gizznitt covered it pretty well, armor tanks may net you more EHP in many cases but you also need it being easier to catch. Shield tanks in my experience significantly outnumber armor tanks because you don't have to commit so often to a fight in case it goes badly, especially with ASBs there is just no real justification for flying armor tanks atm, the mobility and damage loss can never make up for the ASB active tank. Not to mention higher speed also translates into higher transversal which helps alot with the increased sig radius you get from shields.

Reality has an almost infinite capacity to resist oversimplification.

Rented
Hunter Heavy Industries
#11 - 2012-11-16 06:12:18 UTC
Uncomprehending whine is what the internet is all about, thanks for keeping the tradition alive.


Im not entirely sure how you tunnel-vision past how heavy missles eclipse all other medium long range weapons in performance and even compete with short range weapons (including HAMs, except with several fold greater range), but I commend the hard work and dedication it must've taken.
Ennor Odunen
New Jovian Exploration Department
New Jovian Collective
#12 - 2012-11-16 09:52:05 UTC
The change is happening.

Just adjust your tactics to take advantage like everyone else (notnoob) or GTFO.

Cheers!
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#13 - 2012-11-16 11:11:31 UTC
Look! it's JADP...


Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
#14 - 2012-11-16 11:55:27 UTC
This is not the missile nerf you are looking for.

Star Jump Drive A new way to traverse the galaxy.

I invented Tiericide

Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#15 - 2012-11-16 12:17:26 UTC
Super Fresh Taco wrote:
The one thing caldari cruisers do, such as the Tengu, is put dps downfield. Anytime you start fitting one out for pvp you start loosing tank. Once you fit prop mods, scrams, etc, you loose tank. Need I remind you that none of the other empires have this problem. In the end, all you are doing is taking away the ONE THING caldari cruisers do well.

They're not designed to brawl like other cruisers, they run as fire support. So thanks again CCP for looking at the big picture, and paying attention to the mechanics you've designed.



Do you even realise your current overheated faction fitted T2 ammo Tengu spiting 850dps will become the next OMGPWZORMOBILE overheated faction fitted Tengu well above 1K dps with HAM's and for a very decent distance, profit from all skills that right now don't affect them etc?

Clearly, most of you people either don't understand how missiles work, haven't read main topic even if you don't need to know all numbers in detail, or never used them correctly.
HM's need some nerf (ot exactly like the first one), this is good for Caldari that will now have by far one of the most interesting sub capital ships lineup:

-Drake: ship bonus changes will make it definitively deadlier than ever
-Cerberus: this one is the ship that will profit the most from short range missiles changes and bonus, lacks some tank but welp
-Tengu: one needs to remember short range missiles changes, skills affecting them and expected ship bonus§? -hum? really?

This makes already 3 ships, 2 already very common, still using missiles that will be wanted unless you don't understand how missiles operate and are afraid of undock with.

Ferox, Moa, Eagle and all other I'm forgetting are getting mid/low slots changes, hybrids bonus, fittings adjustments and will become interesting on top of these already common ships.
Making missiles a little bit like "guns" for ex Long Range system: HM's with 2 T2 ammo versions -1 LR and one SR
This is good.

brb

Biff Rodgers
Un4seen Development
Sev3rance
#16 - 2012-12-17 00:20:55 UTC
Oh boy, another nerf.
I no longer get angry at that, it's gone beyond angry.
Yea it's a game, no relation to reality, but seriously, what military force nerf their gear, really.

Oh no, our missiles are too powerful for the enemy, we need to nerf them.
Oh please.
More the enemy do something to counter the missiles.
Ship balancing, I give up, no 2 sides are the same, stop trying to make everything that same, pandering to the kiddies in the sand pit, "hey he's too fast" or "he puts out too much DPS" or "he can shoot so far way I can't hit back, I'm telling mum."
For the ships that are good at what they do, make them more expensive.
If I come across a ship, mops the floor with my ship, I go wow, I want one, so I train up for it and buy one.
Not run off to mommy “he blew up my ship”

Here is my feather of protest under the steamroller of CCPs’ ship balancing.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#17 - 2012-12-17 00:42:28 UTC
Biff Rodgers wrote:
Oh boy, another nerf.
I no longer get angry at that, it's gone beyond angry.
Yea it's a game, no relation to reality, but seriously, what military force nerf their gear, really.

Oh no, our missiles are too powerful for the enemy, we need to nerf them.
Oh please.
More the enemy do something to counter the missiles.
Ship balancing, I give up, no 2 sides are the same, stop trying to make everything that same, pandering to the kiddies in the sand pit, "hey he's too fast" or "he puts out too much DPS" or "he can shoot so far way I can't hit back, I'm telling mum."
For the ships that are good at what they do, make them more expensive.
If I come across a ship, mops the floor with my ship, I go wow, I want one, so I train up for it and buy one.
Not run off to mommy “he blew up my ship”

Here is my feather of protest under the steamroller of CCPs’ ship balancing.

Cost is never a good balance point. it just further opens the gap between the haves (since they have the OP toys, they can earn to buy more) and the have nots (since they keep loosing, they can't afford new OP toys).
CCP also addressed exactly why they dropped heavy missiles DPS rather than raising everything else in the game substantially. In that they want to avoid mass power creep.
Also note that for PvP, the Heavy missile change has some up sides. You have SIGNIFICANT increases in missile velocity, meaning you get Damage on Target much faster, and your actual range is much closer to your theoretical range even if they try running away from you. And the removal of the T2 Missiles penelties means that they are effective options as well now. So it's not really a 'Nerf' as much as a change and reshuffle.
Sigras
Conglomo
#18 - 2012-12-17 02:41:30 UTC
Biff Rodgers wrote:
Oh boy, another nerf.
I no longer get angry at that, it's gone beyond angry.
Yea it's a game, no relation to reality, but seriously, what military force nerf their gear, really.

Oh no, our missiles are too powerful for the enemy, we need to nerf them.
Oh please.
More the enemy do something to counter the missiles.
Ship balancing, I give up, no 2 sides are the same, stop trying to make everything that same, pandering to the kiddies in the sand pit, "hey he's too fast" or "he puts out too much DPS" or "he can shoot so far way I can't hit back, I'm telling mum."
For the ships that are good at what they do, make them more expensive.
If I come across a ship, mops the floor with my ship, I go wow, I want one, so I train up for it and buy one.
Not run off to mommy “he blew up my ship”

Here is my feather of protest under the steamroller of CCPs’ ship balancing.

Here's hoping that your feather gets crushed so hard it never recovers . . .

Seriously, balancing around cost is never a good idea, Just because a ship costs a lot doesnt give it the right to be overpowered.

Perhaps youve heard of a thing called balance, its critically important and, contrary to popular belief, diversifys the game.

Before the patch, you saw drake fleet after drake fleet, and hurricane gang after hurricane gang because they were SO effective and most people could fly them. Now, im not so sure, things might get changed up thus diversifying the ships that are flown
Seranova Farreach
Biomass Negative
#19 - 2012-12-17 03:10:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Seranova Farreach
i dont think its a nerf much.. prenerf dps/range with HMs 730/125km. postnerf dps/range 675(ish) @ 100km. not a big differance.

since the "nerf" i moved to HAMs with the lowered PG requirment they fit like a dream and hit smaller targets much easier then HM's and iv been enjoying useing HAMs in missions with my tengu with the now chase cam.

only think i had to do was upgrade to a pricer AB (or get a PDU for MWD) and that was that basically tho i DID want to take the HARDWIRES for explosion velocity and radious. then the typical ROF and DMG per mission hardwires.

so im just gonna out and say what most others want to say.. STOP WHINEING!!.. i was dead set against the nerfs since day 1 but post nerf.. im actually enjoying missles more.

ps. as for range nerf.. wait till the trackign computer thingy comes for missles.. or see what ccp does about it

[u]___________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg[/u]

Sigras
Conglomo
#20 - 2012-12-17 06:28:33 UTC
i love how people complain about the missile nerf when really it was a missile buff and a HML nerf . . .

Ask the Sacrilege pilots how they like the change, or the raven pilots, or any of the frigate pilots . . . Its a huge buff to all missiles except the HML because the HML was totally over powered.