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Actively training skills

Author
Tedrizze
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#21 - 2012-12-16 21:43:48 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Just because you say they are invalid, doesn't mean they are. Also inventing ratios to back up claims, doesn't make them right either.

So far I've only read conjecture and made up figures and no real facts to back up any need for change. All you idea does, is create a means to abuse the skill system.


never said that these are real facts now did i? i even said that this is an approx ratio, also i did ask for your opinions to make the requirements unabusable, read it above please.

Thats what i meant by invalid arguments. you are not even trying to read. bring good arguments to your side and i am more than willing to discuss them or heck even agree with you.

Danika Princip wrote:
You never did explain why killing my alt's ibis 10 times over should give me a level V skill.


and another one who failes at reading carefully. i said that this is an issue and needs improvement. jeees...

Quote:

Repeat after me: "Anything that gives a high enough tangible benefit stops being optional."

again, the suggestion is that the active skillpoint earning does even take longer, the benefit is fun nothing more.

Quote:
Unfortunately for you, this kind of scenario will never happen. Because people will always fit their ships slightly different from everyone else and/or use slightly different tactics and/or different ships to gain a better "edge." And each ship, mod, weapon, and ammo has its pros and cons.
This is a "rochambeau" game. Everything has a weakness.


im not asking for such a scenario. i was just referring to the statement that eve pvp is competative, which is not for the very reason i gave him. nothing more.

Quote:
Welcome to the "sandbox" where PvEers and Industrialists are forced to deal with PvPers and PvPers are at the mercy of PvEers and Industrialists. Both "playstyles" have their advantages and disadvantages.

your point is? im fine with the current sandbox and how it works, i was just telling Destination SkillQueue who is afraid that with my suggestion would put favor in certain playstyles over others, which is already the case (which isnt an issue for me).

---]Also... learn and remember Malcanis' Law.
"Any edge or benefit given in the name of helping newer, poorer player will invariably be to the greater benefit of older, richer players."

Again...i already suggested to make those optional system be available as an expanded tutorial. no benefits for older players.

Seriously, can you all please read ->think->post, in that order? Wow..
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#22 - 2012-12-16 21:53:57 UTC
If it's for new characters only, what do you think it'll be used for the most?


Hint: suicide ganking alts.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#23 - 2012-12-16 22:09:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Tedrizze wrote:
never said that these are real facts now did i? i even said that this is an approx ratio, also i did ask for your opinions to make the requirements unabusable, read it above please.
So you don't give real facts, yet want us to provide requirements to this idea to make it workable? And you say my argument is invalid. Roll

Tedrizze wrote:
Thats what i meant by invalid arguments. you are not even trying to read. bring good arguments to your side and i am more than willing to discuss them or heck even agree with you.
We already know it's a bad idea and the onus is upon you to prove it to be a good one. That's how this works.

So far you said this game is the "one of the biggest grindgame out there", yet you and everyone else says otherwise.
You then claim certain things as facts and when I say they are not facts, then say that you didn't say they were real facts. So facts are OK, as long as they are not real ones?

Do you even have anything that resembles a coherent argument, for this idea? One that's actually based on facts and game mechanics? Anything? Anything valid, as you would say?

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#24 - 2012-12-16 23:19:40 UTC
On the topic of 'Isk Grinding' for newbies. If this is a real issue (I got an accelerated start as a friend kick started me with some cash, so didn't encounter this), why not just up the lvl 1 & 2 mission pay out a bit? I do realise not everyone does missions, but newbies often do, and you do go from millions through the tutorials & sisters of Eve arc, to suddenly a few thousand for a lvl 1 mission.

I'm pretty sure the payout on lvl 1 & 2's could be made a bit higher, kick lvl 1 payout up to lvl 2 maybe and lvl 2's half way between where they are and lvl 3's.
Hey presto, newbie 'isk grinding' solved, without changing lvl 3 or 4 mission income.
Sigras
Conglomo
#25 - 2012-12-17 00:09:21 UTC
this is not a good idea.

First of all, you realize that after one or two months the limiting factor of everything in eve is isk not SP right?

SP means actually nothing in this game if youre smart enough.
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#26 - 2012-12-17 01:20:06 UTC
Tedrizze wrote:
you arent doing anything actively to gain those skills.


Are you trying to say that the account is 100% free? That no one is paying for that account?

Tedrizze wrote:
Why a system that allows you to gain those skills while actively playing is bot friendly is beyond me. Please explain.


Run bot to grind skills extremely fast 23.5/7, sell character. Profit. Perhaps you should explain how this would not be bot friendly?

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.

ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#27 - 2012-12-17 01:49:01 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Tedrizze wrote:
you are not even trying to read. bring good arguments to your side and i am more than willing to discuss them or heck even agree with you.

Unfortunately the base mechanic of your idea (grinding for SP) is offensive to many of us. Discussion can't really progress beyond this point unless you can convince us that it won't cause people to ceaselessly grind and offer greater advantages to older, richer players.

Tedrizze wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
You never did explain why killing my alt's ibis 10 times over should give me a level V skill.

and another one who failes at reading carefully. i said that this is an issue and needs improvement. jeees...

Well... you could add a limitation that the amount of SP gained is based upon the value of the hull killed... but this would only serve to put more power in the hands of rich veteran players who can afford to put an alt in an expensive ship and "suicide it" to gain more SP, faster.

You could put an SP "limit" on the active training... that you can only gain X amount of SP through active training or active train up to X skill points... but then you run into three problems.

The first is that veteran players can still accelerate the specialization of their alts for specific tasks (e.g. suicide ganking alts).
The second is that this will becomes the "new learning skills"... you'll be at a "disadvantage" if you don't use it and grind like crazy.
The third is that this is a "slippery slope"... especially so if there are "limits" attached to it. People will ask why this can't be on all the time. And personally, they should NOT be catered to.

Tedrizze wrote:
Quote:
Repeat after me: "Anything that gives a high enough tangible benefit stops being optional."

again, the suggestion is that the active skillpoint earning does even take longer, the benefit is fun nothing more.

I'm pretty certain Blazzard didn't intend on people to have gotten to level 60 in Diablo 3 in the space of 24 hours (http://www.almostgaming.com/diablo3/diablo-3-quickest-way-to-level-to-60).

See... you may design an "active system" to take longer than the current passive training que... but I assure you that players will find a way to take full advantage of it and MAKE IT work faster.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#28 - 2012-12-17 01:49:12 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Tedrizze wrote:
Quote:
Welcome to the "sandbox" where PvEers and Industrialists are forced to deal with PvPers and PvPers are at the mercy of PvEers and Industrialists. Both "playstyles" have their advantages and disadvantages.

your point is? im fine with the current sandbox and how it works, i was just telling Destination SkillQueue who is afraid that with my suggestion would put favor in certain playstyles over others, which is already the case (which isnt an issue for me)

The problem isn't that it just favors one playstyle over another... it's that it grossly favors one playstyle over everything else.
You're basically giving a solid advantage to anyone who shoots things.

Now... maybe you could apply something similar to manufacturing and industry... but you'll still run into similar issues that I pointed out above.

And what about people who are more "administrative" or do things that have no "tangible" effects in the game (like scouting, spying)? How do they get those same advantages without dedicating specific time to perform "grinding?"

Tedrizze wrote:
Quote:
]Also... learn and remember Malcanis' Law.
"Any edge or benefit given in the name of helping newer, poorer player will invariably be to the greater benefit of older, richer players."

Again...i already suggested to make those optional system be available as an expanded tutorial. no benefits for older players.

Seriously, can you all please read ->think->post, in that order? Wow..

I will repeat what I said above...

Making something optional doesn't necessarily mean that it WILL BE optional.

Learning skills were technically optional. And yet they weren't at the same time.
Sable Moran
Moran Light Industries
#29 - 2012-12-17 10:15:05 UTC
Sigras wrote:
after one or two months the limiting factor of everything in eve is isk not SP


And this is actually a very good thing. It weeds the short attention span people out sooner rather than later and we're all better for it.

Mind you, making ISK isn't that hard either. There are many more options available now than the three (ratting, mining, buy/sell NPC-goods) when I started. You just have to think about how to go about it which, again, weeds out short attention span people.

Sable's Ammo Shop at Alentene V - Moon 4 - Duvolle Labs Factory. Hybrid charges, Projectile ammo, Missiles, Drones, Ships, Need'em? We have'em, at affordable prices. Pop in at our Ammo Shop in sunny Alentene.

Recoil IV
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#30 - 2012-12-17 19:00:26 UTC
+1
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