These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Missions & Complexes

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Message to CCP - New AI completely destroyed complexes

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Cage Man
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#41 - 2012-12-11 18:32:50 UTC
Farlig Ekorre wrote:
The real rub I have with this change is the fact it hurts the people most who actively play Eve by exploring, running plexes and ratting. In other words, the people who work for the isk are the most harmed, making this a de facto regressive taxation.

.


So what you saying is that mission runners, miners, incursion runners don't "actively play eve" My wife would disagree with you there.
I have not been in null for about a year, so can't comment how the changes have impacted it, but I am willing to bet that a couple of RR tengu's will have no problems managing the sites.. even after the missile nerf.
As to those of us who "don't actively play eve".... I have switched from 2 x NM's to NM and rattlesnake with T2 sentries, I cap chain and rattlesnake has shield RR and a does round 700 DPS with the drones (just copied what Rain6637 does.. but with less accounts), I just assign drones to the NM. It is a bit more work to manage but it works..
btw when the sentries get primaried.. I just put the rr on them and carry on regardless. Who knows this may even work in null sites...
I probably didn't have to change to this.. but not being in a wh and having tons of isk to mess with has made me careful..
Tazarak theDeceiver
United Mining and Hauling Inc
The Initiative.
#42 - 2012-12-15 08:43:57 UTC
I managed to get through a DED tonight. I had to fly 3 ships instead of 2, and of course pay attention. Knowing they're working on fixing the drones to behave more civilly I thought I'd dip my toes back in the water.

2 - Osprey
3 medium shield transporters
2 medium energy transporters
invuln field, explosive hardener
medium shield extender
large shield booster II
10MN AB
damage control
PDU
co-processor

1 Golem - torpedo fit, full gank. I swapped one target painter for a fed navy web, so I could better hit frigates with torpedos if I run out of drones.


Set the three ships up bouncing energy amongst the three. It should allow for the Osprey to perma shield boost as well as avoid most damage with the 10MN AB. The Golem can then permaboost and not get too worried about its tank.

If need be, the ospreys could throw emergency heals to the Golem. But I never needed it. By the last room, I was bouncing one remote rep off of each osprey from the other just to be safe as they did get aggro just from energy transfers.

It's a different tactic... and the ospreys are cheaper than basis. I also did this unrigged, so I can fine tune it later.
Opertone
State War Academy
Caldari State
#43 - 2012-12-16 09:42:02 UTC
YESSSSS!!! TEABGG!

Now you do realize that hi end complexes were not meant for solo, dual account trickery.


Still, you've made a point. CCP needs to revisit the infamouse 10/10 and Maze with the stupid EM 100 000 EM torpedo battlestation.

This post sums up why the 'best' work with DCM inc.

WARP DRIVE makes eve boring

really - add warping align time 300% on gun aggression and eve becomes great again
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#44 - 2012-12-16 10:03:18 UTC
Tazarak theDeceiver wrote:
I managed to get through a DED tonight. I had to fly 3 ships instead of 2, and of course pay attention. Knowing they're working on fixing the drones to behave more civilly I thought I'd dip my toes back in the water.

2 - Osprey
3 medium shield transporters
2 medium energy transporters
invuln field, explosive hardener
medium shield extender
large shield booster II
10MN AB
damage control
PDU
co-processor

1 Golem - torpedo fit, full gank. I swapped one target painter for a fed navy web, so I could better hit frigates with torpedos if I run out of drones.


Set the three ships up bouncing energy amongst the three. It should allow for the Osprey to perma shield boost as well as avoid most damage with the 10MN AB. The Golem can then permaboost and not get too worried about its tank.

If need be, the ospreys could throw emergency heals to the Golem. But I never needed it. By the last room, I was bouncing one remote rep off of each osprey from the other just to be safe as they did get aggro just from energy transfers.

It's a different tactic... and the ospreys are cheaper than basis. I also did this unrigged, so I can fine tune it later.


Exactly which "DED" was this?
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#45 - 2012-12-16 10:15:10 UTC
Cage Man wrote:
Farlig Ekorre wrote:
The real rub I have with this change is the fact it hurts the people most who actively play Eve by exploring, running plexes and ratting. In other words, the people who work for the isk are the most harmed, making this a de facto regressive taxation.

.


So what you saying is that mission runners, miners, incursion runners don't "actively play eve" My wife would disagree with you there.
I have not been in null for about a year, so can't comment how the changes have impacted it, but I am willing to bet that a couple of RR tengu's will have no problems managing the sites.. even after the missile nerf.
As to those of us who "don't actively play eve".... I have switched from 2 x NM's to NM and rattlesnake with T2 sentries, I cap chain and rattlesnake has shield RR and a does round 700 DPS with the drones (just copied what Rain6637 does.. but with less accounts), I just assign drones to the NM. It is a bit more work to manage but it works..
btw when the sentries get primaried.. I just put the rr on them and carry on regardless. Who knows this may even work in null sites...
I probably didn't have to change to this.. but not being in a wh and having tons of isk to mess with has made me careful..


This wins for most ignorant post of the day/ No one mentioned mission ruinners or anyone else. However, when "missions runers, miners etc" has to learn how to probe out their content like explorers do, you can come back and tell us about them.

The point of this post is that CCP went about this whole thing the rong way. They should have fit the content around the NPC AI behavior FIRST like they did with incursions and wormholes. And they sholod taylor the rewards to fit.

Not all 10/10s are the same, The MAZE has NOTHING on Blood Raiders Naval Shipyard.

How would wormole and incursion players like to go through the trouble they go through for a CHANCE of a reward? A few years ago, CCP nerfed the 10/10s taking away the guarunteed OPE rewards, probably because people learned to solo 10/10s. That was fine, but now that some of those same plexes are hard to solo, they should bring back the rewards.

But none of this has even been considered, and this carelss approach by CCP demonstrates just how much they think about their most loyal paying customers.
Tazarak theDeceiver
United Mining and Hauling Inc
The Initiative.
#46 - 2012-12-16 12:20:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Tazarak theDeceiver
Jenn aSide wrote:
Tazarak theDeceiver wrote:
I managed to get through a DED tonight. I had to fly 3 ships instead of 2, and of course pay attention. Knowing they're working on fixing the drones to behave more civilly I thought I'd dip my toes back in the water.

2 - Osprey
3 medium shield transporters
2 medium energy transporters
invuln field, explosive hardener
medium shield extender
large shield booster II
10MN AB
damage control
PDU
co-processor

1 Golem - torpedo fit, full gank. I swapped one target painter for a fed navy web, so I could better hit frigates with torpedos if I run out of drones.


Set the three ships up bouncing energy amongst the three. It should allow for the Osprey to perma shield boost as well as avoid most damage with the 10MN AB. The Golem can then permaboost and not get too worried about its tank.

If need be, the ospreys could throw emergency heals to the Golem. But I never needed it. By the last room, I was bouncing one remote rep off of each osprey from the other just to be safe as they did get aggro just from energy transfers.

It's a different tactic... and the ospreys are cheaper than basis. I also did this unrigged, so I can fine tune it later.


Exactly which "DED" was this?



Angel prisoner retention.

I will say that the day of the patch I had a provincial HQ spawn. My ships were eaten and I never managed to finish it. Logis get aggro just warping in without even locking targets.

Thr vslues of OPE need to quadruple.
Tazarak theDeceiver
United Mining and Hauling Inc
The Initiative.
#47 - 2012-12-16 12:27:21 UTC
Opertone wrote:
YESSSSS!!! TEABGG!

Now you do realize that hi end complexes were not meant for solo, dual account trickery.


Still, you've made a point. CCP needs to revisit the infamouse 10/10 and Maze with the stupid EM 100 000 EM torpedo battlestation.


As far as I'm aware there is nothing wrong being a space hermit. I multibox many games.

The biggest appeal if Eve to me has always been the fact I can do laundry, listen to an audio book, hold snd feed my baby all whilst ratting. It's never been a twitch reflex kind of game compared to mist other titles I play. I feel like we've all list something eith these changes. I needed to change a diaper last night but wad scrammed by a belt rat. This is pretty annoying.
Sgt LoveDragon
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#48 - 2012-12-16 13:02:45 UTC
Fango Mango wrote:
White Sorceress wrote:
I like to shoot and I don't like to do market stuff. My accounts cost 1.2b every month that i need to pay to keep my accounts alive. It was already on the border now, spending most of my free time in weekends running damn complexes so survive another month. But now it's over. I don't see any way how to make ISK anymore!

I will wait one month if CCP realizes they totally ****** it up. After that I don't see any other way than letting my accounts expire and wait what happens.

Very bad job CCP, you really need someone who understands this game from inside ! Thumbs down !


Perhaps you should consider an alternative way to fund your Eve account. L5s come to mind . . .

Just selling Ammo to buy orders in jita will get you 1K/LP

That means you need to run about 10-11 L5s to cover your month subscription of 2 accounts.

That should take you about 3 hours/month.


-FM



Yeah no i run L5's and same deal with ai.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#49 - 2012-12-16 16:18:53 UTC
Tazarak theDeceiver wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Tazarak theDeceiver wrote:
I managed to get through a DED tonight. I had to fly 3 ships instead of 2, and of course pay attention. Knowing they're working on fixing the drones to behave more civilly I thought I'd dip my toes back in the water.

2 - Osprey
3 medium shield transporters
2 medium energy transporters
invuln field, explosive hardener
medium shield extender
large shield booster II
10MN AB
damage control
PDU
co-processor

1 Golem - torpedo fit, full gank. I swapped one target painter for a fed navy web, so I could better hit frigates with torpedos if I run out of drones.


Set the three ships up bouncing energy amongst the three. It should allow for the Osprey to perma shield boost as well as avoid most damage with the 10MN AB. The Golem can then permaboost and not get too worried about its tank.

If need be, the ospreys could throw emergency heals to the Golem. But I never needed it. By the last room, I was bouncing one remote rep off of each osprey from the other just to be safe as they did get aggro just from energy transfers.

It's a different tactic... and the ospreys are cheaper than basis. I also did this unrigged, so I can fine tune it later.


Exactly which "DED" was this?



Angel prisoner retention.

I will say that the day of the patch I had a provincial HQ spawn. My ships were eaten and I never managed to finish it. Logis get aggro just warping in without even locking targets.

Thr vslues of OPE need to quadruple.


I solo'd Cartel Prisoner Retention yesterday in a Tengu, I jsut moved away from rep range of the station in the 4th room so it wouldn't rep and ignored everything but killing it, book marked the can it dropped, warped of and let it despawn then picked up the lot.

Why ar eyou using a battleship and 2 logis?. Even with the torp changes can a golem hit the station fro outside station rep range (my tengu has a missles speed rig now)?

For everyone else, it must be remembered that despite the DEd rating system (which is worthless and has been for a while), all compelxes are not created equal. Complexes without neutralizing elements can easily be solo'd still and thus aren't broken by the AI changes as much. Complexs with neutralizing and other EWAR elements are broken.
Hamatitio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#50 - 2012-12-16 19:31:07 UTC
If the rewards are currently crap, then everyone will stop running them. Jacking up the prices of complex mods until a point where people feel the risk is worth the reward. If people don't stop running them then maybe they are unhindered by these changes and have adapted.

As a hint for pulling aggro, ECM reallly pisses off sleepers; maybe itll help to keep aggro on your tanked ship.
Setab Nairromede
Sarum Strategic Consulting Firm
#51 - 2012-12-16 20:54:49 UTC
The contradicting thing here is that I thought CCP was supposed to be leaning towards rewarding active income generation. This seems to go against this.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#52 - 2012-12-17 05:27:00 UTC
Hamatitio wrote:
If the rewards are currently crap, then everyone will stop running them. Jacking up the prices of complex mods until a point where people feel the risk is worth the reward. If people don't stop running them then maybe they are unhindered by these changes and have adapted.

As a hint for pulling aggro, ECM reallly pisses off sleepers; maybe itll help to keep aggro on your tanked ship.


Just because the market will adjust doens't make broken content be unbroken. I'm all for adapting, but can you not understand that CCP went at this whole thing backwards?

How would you like to go up against 4-5 times as many sleepers as you do now only to have people tell you "ah, you'll adapt" lol. Further, how would you wormhole people like your rewards to be utterly random? If CCP wants plexes to not be solo, I'm all for that, make them that way. But the current crap is just unprofessional for a game company.
Farlig Ekorre
United Mining and Hauling Inc
The Initiative.
#53 - 2012-12-17 05:31:26 UTC
The AI gets mad aggro with logistic ships even enter the room. It's a bit over the top.
Ikonia
Royal Amarr Expeditions
#54 - 2012-12-17 10:12:54 UTC
One of the very very very best changes ever.

I dislike it completely that players were able to nearly autorun high end stuff by using and relying on certain techniques that were simply a design failure. In wormholes sleepers always did change their targets and it was about time that those abusing the missing ability of NPCs changing their targets for their very own benefit.

Also it is good for us explorers that those waiting in plexes nearby the gate to the next pocket until you shot the unlocking NPC and then steal now quickly can become a target - especially if you know how to make the NPCs switch. Best change ever.

Prices go up. More income. Less abusing.

Thanks CCP :)
Mnemosyne Gloob
#55 - 2012-12-17 11:29:00 UTC
So basically you guys are mad that you can't use the paper tigers and other strange methods for plexing anymore? It always seemed strange to me, that the rats would happily pound on that one ship that they can't reach/can't break, while completely ignoring the other one that pumps 1k dps or whatever at them. Yes, i too had to sort of retire my tornado, but whatever.

Now drone aggro sometimes seems a bit weird. Whenever i launch my light drones and theres frigates on field, they will immediately redbox my drones ... yet no rat is bothered by my sentries.

Saying "4-5 times as many sleepers" also seem a bit exaggerated, after all sleepers usually are a tad tougher than your average normal rat.
CydonianKnight
Arbiters of the Void
#56 - 2012-12-17 11:50:21 UTC
Mnemosyne Gloob wrote:
So basically you guys are mad that you can't use the paper tigers and other strange methods for plexing anymore? It always seemed strange to me, that the rats would happily pound on that one ship that they can't reach/can't break, while completely ignoring the other one that pumps 1k dps or whatever at them. Yes, i too had to sort of retire my tornado, but whatever.

Now drone aggro sometimes seems a bit weird. Whenever i launch my light drones and theres frigates on field, they will immediately redbox my drones ... yet no rat is bothered by my sentries.

Saying "4-5 times as many sleepers" also seem a bit exaggerated, after all sleepers usually are a tad tougher than your average normal rat.


Basically you summed it up well, you can still explore just as well - find new ways to do it!

Maybe try throwing a micro-jump drive on instead of an AB, let's you get range quickly.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#57 - 2012-12-17 14:24:16 UTC
Ikonia wrote:
One of the very very very best changes ever.

I dislike it completely that players were able to nearly autorun high end stuff by using and relying on certain techniques that were simply a design failure. In wormholes sleepers always did change their targets and it was about time that those abusing the missing ability of NPCs changing their targets for their very own benefit.


You are conflating issues basically. CCP disliked people being able to solo high end stuff too, which is why a couple years ago they nerfed the pay outs you get from them (Angel Cartel Naval Shipyard used to drop 5 guaranteed OPE boxes inadditon to the chance of deadspace loot, now it drops 2 maybe, and a chance of deadspace loot).

That nerf was fine, you could still solo them and get a little something and a chance at something big. But this nerf means you have to do things differently, perhaps with mroe people.....for the EXACT same low reward and slim chance at something good.

Again wormhole and incursion people THINK, what if the content you did (which requires organization and paying attention) only offered a CHANCE of reward instead of the pretty much guaranteed.

If CCP wants high in plexes to be group activity, im totally fine with that, but they need to un-nerf them FIRST, which they did not do.

Quote:

Also it is good for us explorers that those waiting in plexes nearby the gate to the next pocket until you shot the unlocking NPC and then steal now quickly can become a target - especially if you know how to make the NPCs switch. Best change ever.

Prices go up. More income. Less abusing.

Thanks CCP :)


Waiting in plexes and stealing? Let me guess, you are a high sec explorer (because that only happens in high sec). If so it would be no wonder that you don't understand what we are discussing here. High Sec exploration is literally child's play.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#58 - 2012-12-17 14:33:29 UTC
Mnemosyne Gloob wrote:
So basically you guys are mad that you can't use the paper tigers and other strange methods for plexing anymore? It always seemed strange to me, that the rats would happily pound on that one ship that they can't reach/can't break, while completely ignoring the other one that pumps 1k dps or whatever at them. Yes, i too had to sort of retire my tornado, but whatever.


Is what some of us are saying so hard to understand?

We did the old plexes the way CCP designed them, with the stupid NPCs. They tried to make them really tough with things like citidel torps and neut towers and bunches of npc ships, but the stupid AI meant all that was easily doable.

So, CCP nerfed the plex rewards because those plexes were soloable. And that was fine.

The problem is that CCP has made a change were some of them aren't so soloable anymore, and that too is fine, but those plexes still have the nerf-level rewards. Point blank, some of those complexes aren't really worth risking, because they take longer you are more exposed to other players killing you, more prone to lose ships etc etc.

The real end result is a sharp uptick in players doing high sec incursions, I hadn't seen it be this hard to get into an incursion fleet (across several communities) in a LONG time and while I have no information on wormholes I expect we'll see an increase in players in those too.

Chasing people away from content and professions might be good for those who are left (I still explore and do plexes), but it's bad game management.

Now drone aggro sometimes seems a bit weird. Whenever i launch my light drones and theres frigates on field, they will immediately redbox my drones ... yet no rat is bothered by my sentries.

Quote:

Saying "4-5 times as many sleepers" also seem a bit exaggerated, after all sleepers usually are a tad tougher than your average normal rat.


The point stands. Incursions and Wormholes were built with specific NPC Behaviors in mind, yet for some reason some wormhole and incursion players can't understand how important that is.. The missions and complexes should have been redesigned so the behavior of the NPCs make sense FIRST then had the new AI applied. The way CCP has done this is incredibly backward.
Angelina Joliee
State War Academy
Caldari State
#59 - 2012-12-17 15:08:12 UTC
Just wanted to inform you that i am back in complexing.
I do it with two ships again - a rattlesnake and a tempest fleet issue. Both doing damage, tanking and remote-repping. No more dedicated tank or dedicated damage dealer.

Are complexes doable since patch?
yes

Is is harder than pre-patch?
yes

Do Drones die?
yes

Is it more fun than pre-patch?
no
forestwho
Doomheim
#60 - 2012-12-17 16:46:07 UTC
White Sorceress wrote:
My accounts cost 1.2b every month that i need to pay to keep my accounts alive.


You see this is the problem, just cut down an account or two....