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Coming back - Retribution Question
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Kelian
Katasi Salvage
#1 - 2012-12-12 21:43:57 UTC
I was wondering if the following griefer tactic is still possible...


1. Ship A is missioning.

2. Ship B scans down Ship A

3. Ship B warps to Ship A, stealing their loot. (under the new rules, as I understand Ship A has the right to shoot as always)

4. Ship A Attacks Ship B in "retribution" :)

5. Ship C,D,E,F&G warp to their friend, Ship B. And destroy Ship A without any concord involvement.

Now point 5 USED to be the case, my question is, does this still happen?
Pyre leFay
Doomheim
#2 - 2012-12-12 21:54:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Pyre leFay
Kelian wrote:
I was wondering if the following griefer tactic is still possible...


1. Ship A is missioning.

2. Ship B scans down Ship A

3. Ship B warps to Ship A, stealing their loot. (under the new rules, as I understand Ship A has the right to shoot as always)

4. Ship A Attacks Ship B in "retribution" :)

5. Ship C,D,E,F&G warp to their friend, Ship B. And destroy Ship A without any concord involvement.

Now point 5 USED to be the case, my question is, does this still happen?


When Ship B steals loot, he becomes a suspect and is a legal target to anyone.
Ship A attacks ship B, B now has a limited engagement with A but anyone else can still attack B but not A.
B calls in neutral rep C, C becomes suspect and legal for anyone to shoot as C shares all flags of B except for the limited engagement with A (I'm pretty sure).
A can fleet anyone in local to warp to him so D,E,F,G can warp to him and take free aim at B & C, specially if B has A locked down and A cant kill B and B can't kill A.
Joelleaveek
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2012-12-12 21:54:54 UTC
Ship B would be gain a suspect flag and become a legal target for everyone in eve. If ship A has some friends they could warp in a kill you.

Under the old system ships C-G would not have been able to legally attack unless ship A stole some loot back anyway. Under the new system if ship B drops a can then ship a can take it without becoming a legal target to anyone else, including ship B. Only if ship A fires on ship B can ship B shoot back.
Xercodo
Cruor Angelicus
#4 - 2012-12-12 21:59:19 UTC
I don't think 5 was ever the case unless it transferred via logi.

But as pyre described it the Limited Engagement shouldn't transfer now.

The good news is that now:
1) The NPC might change target to B
2) Ship A's allies can now help shoot B regardless of corp since before only corp members would get aggression from stealing things, now ship B is free to be killed by anyone :D

The Drake is a Lie
Kelian
Katasi Salvage
#5 - 2012-12-12 23:08:42 UTC
I think I'm understanding, but can ships c-g attack a, after b has been attacked?

What happens when ship g attacks ship a? Concord? ...or is it OK because he is helping his friend?
Zoctrine
Doomheim
#6 - 2012-12-12 23:19:47 UTC
See, if this was a true Sand Box, none of this A,B,C nonsense would be needed, it would be “you take my stuff I kick your backside, you stronger than me, more capable or what not, I get my backside handed to me in pieces plus you take my stuff, now a question, which one would you prefer?
Rengerel en Distel
#7 - 2012-12-12 23:27:03 UTC
A & B can shoot each other.
Anyone can shoot B.
Anyone shooting A except for B will be concorded in high sec.
If C - Z rep B, they become suspects.
If C - Z rep A, they become suspects.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
Pyre leFay
Doomheim
#8 - 2012-12-12 23:39:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Pyre leFay
Kelian wrote:
I think I'm understanding, but can ships c-g attack a, after b has been attacked?

What happens when ship g attacks ship a? Concord? ...or is it OK because he is helping his friend?

A attacked B because B stole from A, B was able to return fire in a limited engagement to A because B has a right to defend his actions. A is still safe from legal aggression from others as he never earned a suspect flag. So C-G would need to go criminal flag to attack A and in turn they would be Concorded.

Suspects can be attacked by anyone. People attacking suspects do not become suspects them self.
The actions that need to be taken to earn the new flagging system:
http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/63443/1/logo2_actions2flags.png
What the flags them self mean:
http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/63443/1/logo2_flags2consequences.png


Zoctrine wrote:
See, if this was a true Sand Box, none of this A,B,C nonsense would be needed, it would be “you take my stuff I kick your backside, you stronger than me, more capable or what not, I get my backside handed to me in pieces plus you take my stuff, now a question, which one would you prefer?

That is perfectly acceptable mechanics in nul where there is more sand. High has rules for subscription numbers because people are naturally dicks and very few would have the tolerance to start this game without some form of less malevolent rule to people who simply want to play space pilot for $15 a month.
Funky Lazers
Funk Freakers
#9 - 2012-12-12 23:45:49 UTC
Pyre leFay wrote:
Kelian wrote:
I think I'm understanding, but can ships c-g attack a, after b has been attacked?

What happens when ship g attacks ship a? Concord? ...or is it OK because he is helping his friend?

A attacked B because B stole from A, B was able to return fire in a limited engagement to A because B has a right to defend his actions. A is still safe from legal aggression from others as he never earned a suspect flag. So C-G would need to go criminal flag to attack A and in turn they would be Concorded.

Suspects can be attacked by anyone. People attacking suspects do not become suspects them self.
The actions that need to be taken to earn the new flagging system:
http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/63443/1/logo2_actions2flags.png
What the flags them self mean:
http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/63443/1/logo2_flags2consequences.png


Zoctrine wrote:
See, if this was a true Sand Box, none of this A,B,C nonsense would be needed, it would be “you take my stuff I kick your backside, you stronger than me, more capable or what not, I get my backside handed to me in pieces plus you take my stuff, now a question, which one would you prefer?

That is perfectly acceptable mechanics in nul where there is more sand. High has rules for subscription numbers because people are naturally dicks and very few would have the tolerance to start this game without some form of less malevolent rule to people who simply want to play space pilot for $15 a month.


So basically if B steals from A, A can attack him and buddies (C-Z) of B can't help him, otherwise they will be Concorded?

Whatever.
Kelian
Katasi Salvage
#10 - 2012-12-12 23:48:24 UTC
Thank you all. I'm perfectly Clear now!!!
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#11 - 2012-12-13 00:00:38 UTC
Kelian wrote:
I was wondering if the following griefer tactic is still possible...


1. Ship A is missioning.

2. Ship B scans down Ship A

3. Ship B warps to Ship A, stealing their loot. (under the new rules, as I understand Ship A has the right to shoot as always)

4. Ship A Attacks Ship B in "retribution" :)

5. Ship C,D,E,F&G warp to their friend, Ship B. And destroy Ship A without any concord involvement.

Now point 5 USED to be the case, my question is, does this still happen?


Point 5 is not how it used to be... and it's not how it is now....

After point 4: Ship A attacks Ship Bin retribution, the following happens:

Ship C, D, E, F, and G warp in to help their friend, Ship B. They can only help Ship B by remote repairing him, etc.... They cannot attack Ship A yet...

If C-G assist Ship B, they all gain a Suspect Flag, but only Ship B can shoot you unless you shoot those other ships first... This is how it was before, moreless.

The difference is, you can now call in Ships H-ZZZZZZZZ to the fight, and they can all shoot Ship B even if they have no connection to the participants whatsoever, and even more harshly, if ships C-G DID assist Ship B then all those new pilots can also shoot C-G.

Pyre leFay
Doomheim
#12 - 2012-12-13 00:05:46 UTC
Funky Lazers wrote:
So basically if B steals from A, A can attack him and buddies (C-Z) of B can't help him, otherwise they will be Concorded?


If they help with guns, yes.
If they help B who is a suspect with targeted assistance like remote reps or sensor boosters they will become suspects.
If A takes a shot at any of B's buddies who became suspects, they will then get their own limited engagement with A and then can fire upon A.
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#13 - 2012-12-13 00:18:39 UTC
And you told your algebra teacher you would NEVER use algebra in real life....

Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
YoYo NickyYo
Doomheim
#14 - 2012-12-13 03:08:26 UTC
So sorry, you cannot gang pile missioners with no repercussions....Big smile


I am not, nor will I ever be...Nicky Yo.... The question you should ask is.....When will they release the NICKY!
Kelian
Katasi Salvage
#15 - 2012-12-13 13:09:11 UTC
YoYo NickyYo wrote:
So sorry, you cannot gang pile missioners with no repercussions....Big smile





I would be Ship A in this equation. :)

I'm looking to see what has changed and what I can do to protect myself and the one or two folks accompanying me.
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
#16 - 2012-12-13 13:12:36 UTC
Xercodo wrote:
The good news is that now:
1) The NPC might change target to B
2) Ship A's allies can now help shoot B regardless of corp since before only corp members would get aggression from stealing things, now ship B is free to be killed by anyone :D


How is #1 good news.. What?

AFK-cloaking in a system near you.
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#17 - 2012-12-13 13:17:24 UTC
Zoctrine wrote:
See, if this was a true Sand Box, none of this A,B,C nonsense would be needed, it would be “you take my stuff I kick your backside, you stronger than me, more capable or what not, I get my backside handed to me in pieces plus you take my stuff, now a question, which one would you prefer?


It works like this in roughly 85% of the universe. If this is a problem for you, it's because you are avoiding the sandbox - not because CCP isn't providing it.