These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Intergalactic Summit

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

By what right?

Author
Alizabeth Vea
Doomheim
#61 - 2012-12-11 17:17:21 UTC
Streya Jormagdnir wrote:
Alizabeth Vea wrote:
Streya Jormagdnir wrote:


Please point out where I'm fawning? Agreeing is one thing, but I'm not exactly on my knees or anything.


Hyperbole.


That's not a response. Please use full sentences. I'm sure being out in nullsec as part of GoonSwarm has done terrible things to your brain, but you've already demonstrated that you have some basic mastery over language.


Cripes, freaking pubbies. Yes, drag this down to ad hominem attacks. You know exactly what I meant, I hope.

Retainer of Lady Newelle and House Sarum.

"Those who step into the light shall be redeemed, the sins of their past cleansed, so that they may know salvation." -Empress Jamyl Sarum I

Virtue. Valor. Victory.

Streya Jormagdnir
Alexylva Paradox
#62 - 2012-12-11 17:39:05 UTC
Alizabeth Vea wrote:


Cripes, freaking pubbies. Yes, drag this down to ad hominem attacks. You know exactly what I meant, I hope.


Except it would only be an ad hominem attack if I were using your personal traits to attack an argument you're making. But I'm not.

I'm attacking you. Hence it's not ad hominem.

I am also a human, straggling between the present world... and our future. I am a regulator, a coordinator, one who is meant to guide the way.

Destination Unreachable: the worst Wspace blog ever

Seriphyn Inhonores
Elusenian Cooperative
#63 - 2012-12-11 17:40:36 UTC
Ah, absolutists. Despite the Caldari civilization being thousands of years old and the megacorporations have only claimed to be "Caldari" for around two centuries, it is a wonder why State capsuleers here unquestioningly support the latter. I wonder, who gave the megacorporations the right to claim the Caldari civilization? God? The Caldari as a whole are older than the State, so there is simply no possible way the State can have a monopoly on the Caldari identity.

Same principle with the Republic. The Minmatar are far older than the Republic, and thus the Republic cannot claim a monopoly on the Minmatar identity.

No wonder you Caldari are allies with the Amarrians; they love this whole objectivism.
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#64 - 2012-12-11 17:51:27 UTC
Who has any right to claim anything, when it comes to cultures?

Over the past year or so I've done quite a lot of contract work for the Brutor Tribe. I've generally been a net positive force for the Minmatar Republic, I've created jobs, brought money into the Republic's economy, fended off threats and generally done more for the Repulic in one year than most Minmatar citizens do in their lifetimes.

Do I have a right to call myself Minmatar (if I wanted to, which I don't)? No, of course not, because the culture is not an opt-in, it is as with all things a fuzzy consensus. You're a Minmatar if you meet criteria X Y and Z. I'm not genetically one of the tribes, I've never had a Voluval, and so on and so forth. Who was it who determined that those were the things that separated Matari from non-Matari? the majority of Minmatar.

The same is true for Caldari. The overwhelming majority of people who are ethnically Caldari are also culturally Caldari by dint of being State citizens. The Megas didn't "claim" Caldari civilisation, they are simply its most recent expression. The mainstream has moved in one direction, and carried the name with it.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Seriphyn Inhonores
Elusenian Cooperative
#65 - 2012-12-11 17:59:52 UTC
Except, mister Hakatain, your fellow countryfolk here reject anyone calling themselves Caldari who are not part of the State, particularly Caldari nations in the Federation. This comes despite the fact that many of these Caldari nations may be older than the State itself. Nonetheless, they are "traitors", or some such. I quote...

Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
If they do not stand in service to the Megacorporations of the CEP and the Caldari State, then no, they are not Caldari. To be Caldari is to be willing and able to work or fight for the greater glory and destiny of the State which as I stated, is the only legitimate heir to the destiny of the Caldari people.


The most recent expression of Caldari civilization, according to this particular flavour of propaganda, claims all of Caldari civilizations, and identifies Caldari elsewhere as not being Caldari.
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#66 - 2012-12-11 18:03:28 UTC
that's what I said, yes. There's Caldari as in the ethnic group, and then Caldari as in the civilisation. You can be one without being the other (and yes, that works both ways)

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#67 - 2012-12-11 19:33:40 UTC
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:
Except, mister Hakatain, your fellow countryfolk here reject anyone calling themselves Caldari who are not part of the State, particularly Caldari nations in the Federation. This comes despite the fact that many of these Caldari nations may be older than the State itself. Nonetheless, they are "traitors", or some such. I quote...

Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
If they do not stand in service to the Megacorporations of the CEP and the Caldari State, then no, they are not Caldari. To be Caldari is to be willing and able to work or fight for the greater glory and destiny of the State which as I stated, is the only legitimate heir to the destiny of the Caldari people.


The most recent expression of Caldari civilization, according to this particular flavour of propaganda, claims all of Caldari civilizations, and identifies Caldari elsewhere as not being Caldari.


What did I say about self-determination and the right of the Minmatar to determine what is Minmatar? It's precisely the same thing with the Caldari, Commander Inhonores. We, of the State, are Caldari. We get to determine what is Caldari and what is not. That's our right. As the dominant Caldari society in the Cluster, others look to us for that definition also - Caldari is a brand and we are the owners, in the public space. Others can call themselves Caldari but they cannot force us to accept them as such.

You can talk about your Caldari blood and assert your right to be called Caldari, but ten minutes in a room with a real Caldari and you're exposed as precisely what you are. Gallentean. I don't use that word pejoratively, but simply because it is what you are - your thoughts, opinions, tastes, beliefs, ideals, speech patterns, aspirations.

Astera, you're charming and interesting and I bear you no ill-will in the slightest, but I do not see you as Caldari, no matter your blood. Now, I don't claim in the slightest that culture is not a dynamic thing - you could move to The Forge tomorrow and accept a role in a proper company and embrace the Caldari Way - I'd embrace you as my sister in a heartbeat, once you'd done those things!

On the flip side, I'd be happy to develop a friendship with you and call you a friend if you never do anything more Caldari than drink the occaisional cup of Kresh tea - but you wouldn't be what I and the rest of the State calls Caldari.

If I can touch upon a difficult subject, I'd like to return to our Secession from the Federation. Per definition, we left that body because of the Federation's desire to tell US what it was to be Caldari. Those of us who could not bear this dilution of our Culture left the Federation. Those who remained within the Federation, for whatever reason that happened - I won't call them Traitors - are now something else.

Self-Determination. The right to determine the boundaries and inclusions of your own social group. That right ENDS at the point where you attempt to define someone elses social group so as to force them to include you.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#68 - 2012-12-11 21:45:38 UTC
Saede Riordan wrote:

The Caldari State Minmatar Republic is the only bastion of true Caldari Matari culture and the only legitimate heir to the legacy and destiny of the Caldari Matari people. I could care less whatever themeparks or Raata zoos impersonator clans those who call themselves Caldari matari construct in the Federation for they are nothing more than the descendents of collaborators and traitors to their people during the secession rebellion. If they choose to embrace their true heritage however, nothing prevents them from returning to their brothers and sisters in the State Republic where they would be welcomed with open arms.

Oh look I can do it too!
And for the folks at home, have some statist mad-libs:

The [my government] is the only bastion of true [my heritage] culture and the only legitimate heir to the legacy and destiny of the [my people] people. I could care less whatever themeparks or [pejorative name for the communities of those descended from your bloodline living outside your nation] those who call themselves [my people] construct in the Federation for they are nothing more than the descendents of collaborators and traitors to their people during the [formative national event]. If they choose to embrace their true heritage however, nothing prevents them from returning to their brothers and sisters in the [my government] where they would be welcomed with open arms.





As much as I understand you reasoning, I think you failed to include Caldari culture into account, where the majority of them generally accepts more or less the opinion of Gesakaarin-haani as a fact - and the rest like the Guristas, disassociated, or else argue otherwise, which is to be expected.

I also think that your argument might not work with the Matari culture itself if you take the individual instead of the clan. A rough but more accurate analogy would not be "impersonator clans" but "Matari exiles". Or just individuals instead of clans/tribes or caldari megacorporations.

As far as I know, it is of the opinion of a lot of traditionnalist Minmatar that a Matari individual without a clan and a tribe is not completely, or truly, Minmatar, or can not understand plainly the concept. That does not mean of course that they do not care for what they call their "kin", or there would never have been freedom fighters and the likes.

As far as I know, also, there are also a lot of Minmatar that hold different beliefs. Like there are some Caldari that share different beliefs than the majority.

Of course, they do not seem to go along very well as evidently shown in this discussion.

In any case, what Mr Inhonores said is not a something that comes out of thin air, by far, for the exact reasons that I stated just above. Being born in the Federation in a Matari immigrant family often means that their education is either done by the federal world they live in, or either a hybrid of a Matari and Gallentean upbringing. In most cases, they do not have access to proper Voluval ceremony, or Voluval ceremonies that are not considered by their fellow Minmatar.

That simple fact is enough for a lot of Minmatar to say that their "kin" in the Federation are, for most, not truly Matari. It is a sentence that I have heard and read a lot, and that will not cease before a while.


Sidenote : I am curious since you seem to disagree with people telling to outside "impersonator clans" not having the right to call themselves Minmatar, what about the Ammatar then ?


Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:
Despite the Caldari civilization being thousands of years old and the megacorporations have only claimed to be "Caldari" for around two centuries, it is a wonder why State capsuleers here unquestioningly support the latter. I wonder, who gave the megacorporations the right to claim the Caldari civilization? God? The Caldari as a whole are older than the State, so there is simply no possible way the State can have a monopoly on the Caldari identity.


The Tea Maker Ceremony that happened at the outbreak of the war should provide you the answer, if you keep the Caldari culture in mind, I guess.

You can argue that the Maker has nothing to do with it or not,it does not really matter since it is the meaning of ceremony itself that is held prevalant here. Then, you can also put the value or rationale of the ceremony in question, but that is another story, no ?
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#69 - 2012-12-11 23:36:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:
Ah, absolutists. Despite the Caldari civilization being thousands of years old and the megacorporations have only claimed to be "Caldari" for around two centuries, it is a wonder why State capsuleers here unquestioningly support the latter. I wonder, who gave the megacorporations the right to claim the Caldari civilization? God? The Caldari as a whole are older than the State, so there is simply no possible way the State can have a monopoly on the Caldari identity.


The Caldari secession and the formation of the State found its causes in two major factors:

1. The continued attempts by the Federal legislature and the Gallentean political majority that constituted the Senate to seek the implementation of laws aimed directly at Caldari corporate entities. The Caldari Megacorporation was the last bastion of strength and power that continued to provide a voice in support of Caldari colonial interests, and then just as today, carried the legacy of Caldari culture, history, and traditions in the modern world as institutions in and of themselves. As such, the use of the Senate by the Gallentean majority to strike against Caldari Megacorporations through the legislature in the political interests of their parties and the economic interests of their lobbyists was a direct affront against the Caldari people and their interests. The will of the Caldari people is expressed solely through the strictures and organization of the Caldari corporation.

2. The attempts to carry out a centralization of government and increase the power of Federal authority was a direct challenge to Caldari colonial independence and the rights of Caldari to dictate the course of their lives without the intercession of foreign authority. The continued inability for the Gallentean majority to accept the view of the Caldari majority that the corporation itself was the sole representative of the Caldari will as a people (which continues to this day) displayed their gross intolerence for any political system which did not conform to their view as the, "Sole representatives of humanity". (Which perhaps in and of itself shows far more similar thinking with the Amarr than the Federation likes to admit).

The Morning of Reasoning was a direct referendum on the necessity of a State which embodied the Caldari desire to live in a politically autonomous nation under the direct authority of corporations serving as the institutions upon which the Caldari will was to be expressed culturally, politically, economically, militarily and in its society. This referendum was accepted by such a majority of Caldari that any that did not accept the mandate of the Chief Executive Panel lost any and all right to call themselves such for only reactionaries, collaborators, traitors, and those who no longer considered themselves Caldari chose not to accept that mandate.

The Caldari State is the sole representative and heir to Caldari history and tradition due to the simple fact that the greatest majority of Caldari who can trace their lineage back to the Homeworld reside there.

As such, today, just as in the past, the only True Caldari is a citizen of the State and a CEP Megacorporation. Any who would call themselves Caldari outside of the State or whom are not a citizen are simply the disassociated minorities, however they may affect otherwise.

Kurilaivonen|Concern

Vikarion
Doomheim
#70 - 2012-12-12 02:29:09 UTC
That's a bit of a hard line, Gesakaarin. In defense of more ambiguity, I would reference the fact that there are many retired employees of a megacorporation who are no longer employed, yet still considered citizens of the State. There are some Caldari who have engaged in criminal activity, yet not against the State (for example, in the Angel Cartel, striking against Minmatar or Gallente interests) who we have welcomed back. Nonetheless, on the whole, your explanation is valuable.

To put it more simply, being Caldari is not simply the acceptance of our culture and traditions, but also the rejection of other cultural memes. This is not inherent to the State - to many Matari, it is not enough to be tribal, rather, one must also not be Amarr, one must reject the ideas, the habits, and the worldview of the Amarrians. This is neither uncommon nor inappropriate for cultures that have had to break free from those who would oppress and assimilate them.

The Federation destroys cultures, in part by assimilation, and in part by supplanting them. Consider the way the Federation population treats Minmatar tribal tattoos: they paste them all over themselves, in any particular order, with no regard to the sacred or the importance of these signs. It's a fad, that will be used up, exploited to the greatest extent possible, and then tossed aside without a second thought to the insult it causes.

One might not say that existing in such a society is an act of treason, but if I might meddle slightly, I'd say that a Minmatar who approved of or supported such desecrations might well be considered such. By what right? By virtue of the fact that he or she tosses what it means to be uniquely Minmatar away, as trash.

We Caldari do not make light of our own culture. And we don't want others importing it for their own ends. It's ours. If you come here, we expect you to become like us. Oh, we don't need to know what your ancestry is, but you will accept our ways, or you can find another place to live. This is what we are, who we are, and what our ancestors fought and died to remain. If you want us to be something else, kindly understand that we are not shy about expressing our disagreement with missile, railgun, and blaster.
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#71 - 2012-12-12 06:43:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Vikarion-haan,

The Sobaseki Corporate Model of Kaalakiota may at times be considered a hard line even within the State but it does remain perhaps the most direct expression of the Caldari cultural virtues of unity through purpose; vigilance through patriotism; strength through prosperity; and peace through armed might. I would never fault the actions of a patriot who held true to those fundamental tenets in their service to the State and the Caldari people wherever it may lead for what guides them is the highest of virtues and principles of our nation - they are, and will always remain as Caldari for service has always been the guarantor of citizenship.

This then addresses the topic at hand which I will summarize as thus:

To be Caldari is to serve the State.

As such, only those who serve the State and the CEP by acting in its interests and defending its rights through any means, great or small, has legitimate grounds to call themselves Caldari (even if by ethnicity they are not) and a citizen of the State (even if the legality of such is not recognized by external parties).

Ambiguity only arises in the differences of thought, philosophy and doctrines between each CEP member as to what they consider, "acting in the interests of the State" actually constitutes in practice. Sobaseki, Oiritsuu, Heth, Seituoda, Gariushi, Osmon, Reppola, all differ in their doctrines to some degree but they do agree on the most important point:

Only through the State is one Caldari.

Although I am certain you are already aware of such thoughts, and the thought was expressed solely for the edification of foreigners. As for the rest of your own thoughts I am in agreement and might leave with the following as regards the Federation:

Only those without culture do not understand nor respect it.

Kurilaivonen|Concern

Logan Fyreite
Grim Bit Interface
#72 - 2012-12-12 19:45:45 UTC
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:

The Caldari secession and the formation of the State found its causes in two major factors:

1. The continued attempts by the Federal legislature and the Gallentean political majority that constituted the Senate to seek the implementation of laws aimed directly at Caldari corporate entities. The Caldari Megacorporation was the last bastion of strength and power that continued to provide a voice in support of Caldari colonial interests, and then just as today, carried the legacy of Caldari culture, history, and traditions in the modern world as institutions in and of themselves. As such, the use of the Senate by the Gallentean majority to strike against Caldari Megacorporations through the legislature in the political interests of their parties and the economic interests of their lobbyists was a direct affront against the Caldari people and their interests. The will of the Caldari people is expressed solely through the strictures and organization of the Caldari corporation.

2. The attempts to carry out a centralization of government and increase the power of Federal authority was a direct challenge to Caldari colonial independence and the rights of Caldari to dictate the course of their lives without the intercession of foreign authority. The continued inability for the Gallentean majority to accept the view of the Caldari majority that the corporation itself was the sole representative of the Caldari will as a people (which continues to this day) displayed their gross intolerence for any political system which did not conform to their view as the, "Sole representatives of humanity". (Which perhaps in and of itself shows far more similar thinking with the Amarr than the Federation likes to admit).

What a hilariously altruistic view of one of the more complicated situations in recent history. Both completely absolving the Caldari of any 'wrongdoing' while still providing a large portion of finger pointing at the 'invasive' Gallente Federation. Do you honestly think in such black and white terms?

I mean it seems, to me, pretty unrealistic to simply lay the blame of everything at the feet of the Gallente, or to alternatively lay the blame entirely at the feet of the Caldari. Similar to the Minmatar and Amarr conflict, it's not as if both sides don't share some of the responsibility.

Sorry I just had to stop by and drop that in here. Okay, please continue going on about Caldari culture in a thread supposedly about Minmatar culture. Probably more interesting anyways.
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#73 - 2012-12-12 23:11:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Logan Fyreite wrote:
I mean it seems, to me, pretty unrealistic to simply lay the blame of everything at the feet of the Gallente, or to alternatively lay the blame entirely at the feet of the Caldari. Similar to the Minmatar and Amarr conflict, it's not as if both sides don't share some of the responsibility.


There exists no such thing as permanent alliances, only permanent interests. I sought to present a summary of the underlying interests from the Caldari perspective that made continued support of existing within the Federal system at the time untenable. Wars are simply the expression of political and ideological will through violence and if the Caldari people did not have fundamental political and ideological differences with the Federation in addition to other social and economic factors then the war would not have been fought. A more in depth introspective on the causes behind the conflict would understandably take more than the brief summation I provided.

I also feel little need to apportion blame or seek moral justifications for war and violence since they are the requirements of liberals who fail to understand that war and violence are just the natural extensions of politics, and the only moral imperative as I see it in utilizing violence is to ensure that it is conducted in the interests of ones own State and nation.

There is no "right" or "wrong" in war, only the prosecution of political and ideological interests through any means deemed necessary.

Kurilaivonen|Concern

Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#74 - 2012-12-12 23:38:42 UTC
Should we just make a thread for every culture and try to 'define' what it means to be what?

I frankly don't mind what anyone in the Federation calls themselves. They, after all, have that uselessly precious right to. They can mod themselves to have a cat tail and ears and call themselves felines if they want over there... and they do. Why should it matter if they think they are Caldari?

Smile and ignore them.

I know what being Caldari means. My peers know what it means. I don't have to explain it to anyone on this forum, and neither should any others feel that need - Caldari OR Minmatar.

Let the Federals call themselves what they want. They'll do it anyways.

Katrina Oniseki

Astera Zandraki
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#75 - 2012-12-13 03:06:02 UTC
Gotta love all those freedoms ehh?
Lazarus Jaeol
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#76 - 2012-12-13 04:08:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Lazarus Jaeol
Brothers and Sisters,

I will not touch on the affront to my beloved Empire, however I would like to just point out that Nations, Empires, Federations, and States ALL evolve. Yes, the Corporations may be relatively new to the Caldari as a whole, but the State evolved them into what it means to be Caldari, the Caldari people as a whole have accepted them and the State and used that to identify themselves. If that is how they now identify their culture, I see it of no consequence to someone outside of their influence.

If it was not so important, they truly believed that Corporations or the State had no bearing on who was Caldari or not, they would claim they were Caldari and move on. The fact that they lament about not being accepted by them, gives it power over them. It grants it a credence and brings it into reality proving that Corporations and the State are in fact, an integrale part of what it means to be Caldari.




I leave you in prayer.