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Manufacturing, worth getting into?

Author
Ymirus
Brigandage
#21 - 2012-12-11 17:53:27 UTC
Thanks for the advice so far everyone.

To touch on some of the points mentioned:
I don't mine, at all. I have the skills, from way back, but so far I'm spending my time with researching what items to make, setting up runs etc.
I get my minerals from buy orders, at a significant discount to jita prices.
I'm trying to sell exclusively at my chosen home, if only to learn about the system.
I've been considering setting up some basic PI, so will look into that.

I've read Beckie's blog a few times over the past few days now, and that has been a help in getting me to actually start manufacturing instead of keeping it as a dream.

I remember reading in some other thread about a chat channel where people sell researched BPO's, this seems like a good start for me as I'm unable to research myself at the moment. Does anyone know of this channel? Or if not the channel, people who sell basic BPO packs for ammo and the likes?
Elena Thiesant
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2012-12-11 19:23:17 UTC
The 'Blueprints' channel
Beckie DeLey
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2012-12-11 19:31:57 UTC
Ymirus wrote:

I've read Beckie's blog a few times over the past few days now, and that has been a help in getting me to actually start manufacturing instead of keeping it as a dream.

*pumps fist*
Awesome, glad it helped!

Quote:
I remember reading in some other thread about a chat channel where people sell researched BPO's, this seems like a good start for me as I'm unable to research myself at the moment. Does anyone know of this channel? Or if not the channel, people who sell basic BPO packs for ammo and the likes?


I think the channel is just named "Blueprints".
But especially ammo BPO packs can be bought via contracts almost all the time in Rens and Jita.
There's also several people that have a thread in the marketplace dealing in blueprints.

My siren's name is Brick and she is the prettiest.

Roman Fuego
Brotherhood of Bankrupt Bastards
#24 - 2012-12-12 12:57:28 UTC
Salpad wrote:
Roman Fuego wrote:
Cap James Tkirk wrote:
Install ISK PER HOUR
look at items you want to make
profit???



This.

ISK Per Hour is the single best tool I've seen in a year for mfg/indy work.

If you want to get started on 200mil look into scourge fury/precision missles. With such a low amount of funding you need to look things that provide a high return on capital (ie something you can make 50-100% on money invested)... they will probably take you longer to build but you'll get ISK faster because you don't run out of money scaling up number of concurrent lines.


Whut? Manufacturing T2 scourge missiles may be good advice in general, but with the recent change to T2 misiles in the Retribution expansion, I'd imagine market prices will fluctuate a bit. Is it a good idea to advise a noob to start producing an item whose market price may be in flux?



So lets take a look at scourge precision missiles (stats from Eve ISK per hour):

1) Invention cost - roughly 415k (will vary slightly with meta-items and skills... but not by much if you have at least 3's for skills)
2) Raw Material Cost - roughly 16mil ISK
3) Production Time 7 days, ISK/Hr - approx 72K ISK/hr - not too good
4) Approx Profit per 10 run BPC - 13mil ISK
5) Return on invested capital - outstanding
6) Volume in Jita - 1-2mil units a day

Note - volume in Jita appears to have improved in the last week or two so I wouldn't worry too much about retribution changes

So why did I suggest these missiles and break the "don't recommend specific items" unspoken manufacturing rule? For the following reasons:

1) Building these are well known to be profitable - Inventing Missles from Ten Ton Hammer - Take a look at the date posted
2) These are one of the few items that are perennially profitable
3) The very high return on invested capital

#3 is key for someone with 200mil ISK. With the low investment costs you can get 10 lines running concurrently with your capital. On top of that you will likely make over 100mil ISK from one 10 line batch of jobs. You will be making ISK more slowly than someone with billions but that is the price you pay for not having much capital. Once you get more ISK you can switch to things that have a higher ISK/hour.

I've seen Jita get a bad rap a lot on these forums... one day I'm going to spend some time and post on some of the benefits of Jita (which are many).
Iq Cadaen
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#25 - 2012-12-14 07:23:09 UTC
Roman Fuego wrote:
1) start inventing scourge fury/precision bpc's... you can buy the BPC's required from contracts. Inventions costs are low. Don't pay more than 100k ISK per BPC and use caldari navy missiles to increase your invention chance.

FTFY
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#26 - 2012-12-15 11:04:15 UTC
Before you take the plunge into manufacturing, you best figure out how long it takes to get the skills needed to manufacture the items you want. T2 mfg skills take an order of magnitude longer to learn.

The reason I suggest examining the timeline of skills is you may not have that long to use them, assuming you are thinking of high sec T2 mfg.

It would be wise for you to read the forum threads in GD, features/ideas, and older threads even in this forum, and view / read some of Soundwave's interviews.
Then decide for yourself what is coming down the pipe for high sec mfg, and when.
Beckie DeLey
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2012-12-15 11:34:01 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Before you take the plunge into manufacturing, you best figure out how long it takes to get the skills needed to manufacture the items you want. T2 mfg skills take an order of magnitude longer to learn.

The reason I suggest examining the timeline of skills is you may not have that long to use them, assuming you are thinking of high sec T2 mfg.

It would be wise for you to read the forum threads in GD, features/ideas, and older threads even in this forum, and view / read some of Soundwave's interviews.
Then decide for yourself what is coming down the pipe for high sec mfg, and when.


If you want us to join your little headless chickendance, perhaps start by telling us what the hell you are talking about?

Not that i am overly optimistic that it's worth reading, given your track record, mind you. But please, humor me. It's a slow day. Why don't we have long to use our T2 skills?

My siren's name is Brick and she is the prettiest.

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#28 - 2012-12-15 13:58:41 UTC
Beckie DeLey wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Before you take the plunge into manufacturing, you best figure out how long it takes to get the skills needed to manufacture the items you want. T2 mfg skills take an order of magnitude longer to learn.

The reason I suggest examining the timeline of skills is you may not have that long to use them, assuming you are thinking of high sec T2 mfg.

It would be wise for you to read the forum threads in GD, features/ideas, and older threads even in this forum, and view / read some of Soundwave's interviews.
Then decide for yourself what is coming down the pipe for high sec mfg, and when.


If you want us to join your little headless chickendance, perhaps start by telling us what the hell you are talking about?

Not that i am overly optimistic that it's worth reading, given your track record, mind you. But please, humor me. It's a slow day. Why don't we have long to use our T2 skills?


Given how much the ISD likes to ban anyone who throws up "unsubstantated rumours", I really can't say specifically.
But, do some research on what Soundwave has said in various interviews in the past 8 months. Then read what is being suggested by various parties about the high sec/null sec manufacturing situation.

Then do research on the timing of various forum campaigns regarding high sec, then notice the timing of the implementation of the "balancing suggestions" that CCP invokes.

But hey, what do I know?
Nothing, right.
I am a complete idiot.

So don't bother following up on any of my suggestions.
I am sure that high sec manufacturing will trundle along with no changes in the next 12 months, or 6.

I pulled down my last POS 6 months ago, and shut down all of my mfg accounts in protest of the attack on high sec in the summer release, so I really should not care. Not my problem any more.
Beckie DeLey
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2012-12-15 14:40:40 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Given how much the ISD likes to ban anyone who throws up "unsubstantated rumours", I really can't say specifically.


That's what i thought.

One more thing, please. Stop pulling this rumormongering crap in threads that up to there have been productive. You know, people with actual questions coming to the forums and getting actual help.

There's more than enough "OMG the sky is falling" threads in GD, try there and keep that **** out of here. Thanks.

My siren's name is Brick and she is the prettiest.

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#30 - 2012-12-15 17:55:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Dinsdale Pirannha
Beckie DeLey wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Given how much the ISD likes to ban anyone who throws up "unsubstantated rumours", I really can't say specifically.


That's what i thought.

One more thing, please. Stop pulling this rumormongering crap in threads that up to there have been productive. You know, people with actual questions coming to the forums and getting actual help.

There's more than enough "OMG the sky is falling" threads in GD, try there and keep that **** out of here. Thanks.


The reason I post it here because there are a quite likely, not that anyone can ever have precise numbers, of people that read this forum but don't go near the cesspool of GD.

I believe it is critical that people that obviously are interested in science and industry understand the movement afoot and what it means to them in what I believe is the near future.

I may cry doom a lot, but that does not mean I have not been right (like the new AI, among other things)
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#31 - 2012-12-15 18:26:52 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Given how much the ISD likes to ban anyone who throws up "unsubstantated rumours", I really can't say specifically.
But, do some research on what Soundwave has said in various interviews in the past 8 months. Then read what is being suggested by various parties about the high sec/null sec manufacturing situation.

Then do research on the timing of various forum campaigns regarding high sec, then notice the timing of the implementation of the "balancing suggestions" that CCP invokes.

But hey, what do I know?
Nothing, right.
I am a complete idiot.

So don't bother following up on any of my suggestions.
I am sure that high sec manufacturing will trundle along with no changes in the next 12 months, or 6.

I pulled down my last POS 6 months ago, and shut down all of my mfg accounts in protest of the attack on high sec in the summer release, so I really should not care. Not my problem any more.


You're not an idiot but you are internet spaceship paranoid. I'm glad it works for you but I'm frankly amazed that your confirmation bias is still telling you you're right. It's cute that you finally admitted that NPC changes hit null dwellers hard and still insist that high sec mission runners were the ones in the crosshairs.

Anyhow. What's the worst that could happen if T2 production is migrated to low sec. We all need jump freighters and... that's it?
Beckie DeLey
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2012-12-15 20:01:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Beckie DeLey
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
The reason I post it here because there are a quite likely, not that anyone can ever have precise numbers, of people that read this forum but don't go near the cesspool of GD.


And for good reason. So why would you bring that cesspool over here?


The thing with manufacturers and industrialists is this: they adapt. They wouldn't be able to go about their business otherwise. If there are changes upcoming, no matter their nature, it will only serve to weed out those that can't.

I feel like manufacturers are in a pretty good spot whenever changes come up. The skillset is very broad, we can easily switch whatever we produce. When minerals rise, we can just pass on that rise onto the customer.

*shrug* I'm not afraid of adjusting my plans to whatever CCP can come up with. I guess i don't get why you are.

My siren's name is Brick and she is the prettiest.

Denal Umbra
Coffee Hub
#33 - 2012-12-16 09:44:55 UTC
Lolar55 wrote:
If you want to be a low life industrialist sure 200m will do.If you really want to get into it you will need large pos(1.5b to fully set up)to even think of starting it.Then you should have about 5b set aside for bpos and atleast 2b for minerals and misc. items.Then you will make decent profit per month.In manufructuring there's always room for more basically the more isk you put at it the more profit you will get.Tbh if I had 7trillion it still wouldn't be enough to build everything i wanted.


200m is more than enough to make a decent profit. I started my manufacturing business with about that and in 3 months it had grown to 2b already, purely from manufacturing and getting cheaper minerals from buy orders using 3-4 day builds. The gold mine at that time, was compression items. 150-350m / week from a single line using antimatter XL ammo.



Anyhow... If you really want to get into manufacturing, you should consider picking up some extra software or create a worksheet for yourself. I'd also suggest EVE isk per hour since it is quite accurate most of the time, even if it only gives you the -current- situation and in 3-4 days, the situation can have changed drasticly. However, it does give quite good information and instead of the 400m profit you will make a 200m profit.

Use sell orders in hubs! While it may be tempting to just quick-sell it to the buy orders, you are losing a huge chunk of the profit and as long as you can log in 2-4 times a day to update the prices, the item will sell in less than a week in jita. As long as the SVR is higher than 30.

The profits may be better outside of hubs... but if you want to move away from 'small time business' to mass production, eventually you will want to move over your produce to hubs instead. The profits will be higher but the margins slimmer.



If you do not have access to research... you are kinda shooting yourself in the foot but you can find empty research slots for ME quite easily in low sec and using a shuttle to go there, is perfectly safe (unless you autopilot). Will help you start getting your bpos researched. However... if you do not want to risk it, then there are quite a lot of good bpos for sale on the forums / contracts. Might want to check it out as well.
Hondo Stryker
Grey Schatten
#34 - 2012-12-16 14:40:26 UTC
Denal Umbra wrote:

200m is more than enough to make a decent profit.


This is encouraging.. :) I can start with more than 200m, but was afraid I was going to need 1-2b...

Can anyone point me to a decent guide/thread/etc. for Eve IPH? It looks incredibly useful, but I am afraid if I mis-select something, I will make a poor business decision...

Thanks everyone for sharing all the good information...
Denal Umbra
Coffee Hub
#35 - 2012-12-16 16:32:40 UTC
http://sourceforge.net/projects/eveiph/

first hit via google.

Also, about POS's for research... until you go big, you will not need em. There are enough low sec ME slots open to get you started however once you hit 2-4b you may start to consider a small research / manufacturing pos in high sec. A small pos provides enough labs for 3 toons and if you combine it with some assembly arrays, enough for 1-2 toons for mass production.
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
#36 - 2012-12-16 17:56:39 UTC
People telling you not to mine, have better uses for their alts.

Personally, Before patch I had 1 character just slowly afk mining away bout 20M-100M per day while I ran missions in a pally solo

The minerals add up over a month and then I would set my inventor character to manufacture items I expect to consume during the manufacture of invented BPC's

4 out of 6 of my charachters are just blasting away with blueprint copy's (private POS) while 1 specialized character invents and invents and invents and invents.

From paladins to Capital tractor beams down to just plain old common PvP fittings for frigates, T1 and T2, whatever is cleaver.

Think about what these people are telling you, think hard, now, what kind of items WOULD THEY BUY, since they don't mine?

Think outside of the box, Mainstream information is not as profitable as people portray it to be, because like I always say, Information is the most valuable asset a merchant has in his/her arsenal, once you figure something out, keep a lid on it unless you deem it necessary to take out competition.
Hondo Stryker
Grey Schatten
#37 - 2012-12-17 00:39:23 UTC
Denal Umbra wrote:
http://sourceforge.net/projects/eveiph/

first hit via google.

:)

Yeah, I got that... I was wondering if there was more of a practical guide to effectively using IPH - particularly the manufacturing list...

I'll fiddle with it and see what I can figure out (and I'll google some more too!)...
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#38 - 2012-12-17 01:02:11 UTC
I'd suggest joining the bulk trade mailing list too, and selling via it (if you can't be bothered playing 0.01 isk games)

You'll get less than the sell price, but more than the buy price (generally. I try to price around mid way between the two, as long as the isk/hr is still reasonable) and as you'll be transferring with a private item exchange contract, you won't have any taxes, just the 10k broker fee.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Grippa Dets
Doomheim
#39 - 2012-12-19 08:55:36 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
I'd suggest joining the bulk trade mailing list too, and selling via it (if you can't be bothered playing 0.01 isk games)

You'll get less than the sell price, but more than the buy price (generally. I try to price around mid way between the two, as long as the isk/hr is still reasonable) and as you'll be transferring with a private item exchange contract, you won't have any taxes, just the 10k broker fee.

Thanks for that tip! "Bulk Trade" channel. I like your website btw.

--- to original post --

I've lost millions and taken years to be the fine industrialist I am today so take this with a grain of salt. ;)

sell high margin = time to sell
sell high volume = small profit margins
always calculate your "opportunity cost" using IPH (great program as mentioned above)
use buy order, pay attention to ME on purchased BPC's - to save supply cost
don't try to buy all your BPO's all at once, you'll go broke fast
sell pvp goods in pvp areas, pve stuff in mission areas, etc. ( I know Cpt Obvious, but you'd be surprised)
hauling goods to market will burn you out
living near busy market will price you out
don't be afraid to buy supplies - the time savings can be worth the mark up - but usually impulse buys eat profits
read dev blogs and patch notes and good blogs (beckie) - you may see a speculating opportunity emerge
make what you will use - so you don't have pressure "unload" stuff at a loss

Have fun!

I could never make enough ISK to justify time RL spent scheming and building in game. I buy PLEX and slowly loose it making things but at least I don't stress about not paying my accounts with ingame activity anymore.

Oh and lastly - I try to build up my local which is away from major hubs but near high level agents and produce stuff (at small or loss profit) at Jita prices - instead of gauging. Why? Because building and seeing things sell is fun, and it helps others avoid useless game time travel to get refitted. More time for combat, and a healthier overall EVE. I love this place.
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