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Time for Drones v2.0?

Author
Felturion
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#41 - 2012-12-11 21:54:44 UTC
Screenlag wrote:
And for gods sake, let us give our fighters names, I mean, there are pilots in there! Why let dust mercs have usernames if our fighter pilots are nameless?


Or have a random name generated that only change if they are killed.

(Eye Candy) Ship names Visable on the ship Hull https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2281340&#post2281340

Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2012-12-11 22:11:29 UTC
Hakan MacTrew wrote:
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Seismic Stan wrote:
@CCP_Fozzie wrote:
@Freebooted I think the solution will come through other means. It's something CCP Bettik is investigating options for right now.


Any speculation yet on what "other means" may be? I did a quick search on CCP Bettik's posts, and there's only 4 since March, so I don't even know what that particular Dev has been working on specifically to guess what the change may be.

And as long as we're suggesting "fozziefication", I think other drone stats should be looked at, besides Amarr drones. For example, all heavy drones having 100m signature radius? When a ship capable of carrying 5 of them and launching 3 has a radius of 150m? Makes little sense.

I wonder if they are thinking of removing drones from the overview, making them untargetable (and thus balancing them against other weapon systems.)

Would be nice but would have to be damagable through means of smart bombs and FoF missiles.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Mund Richard
#43 - 2012-12-11 22:20:00 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Would be nice but would have to be damagable through means of smart bombs and FoF missiles.

Which in return would lead to battleships with as many hardpoints as highslots less useful, as you'll likely leave one for a smartbomb. And one for a Neut.
Suddenly the pest is even better.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.

Jame Jarl Retief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#44 - 2012-12-11 22:51:35 UTC
Mary Clarissa Titor wrote:
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
And as long as we're suggesting "fozziefication", I think other drone stats should be looked at, besides Amarr drones. For example, all heavy drones having 100m signature radius? When a ship capable of carrying 5 of them and launching 3 has a radius of 150m? Makes little sense.


Doesn't have to. You're right, but it doesn't have to make sense. :) Sig radius is not a reflection of size, but also of electronic emissions. Drones, being remote controlled, naturally involve a lot of these electronic emissions, (hence drone bandwidth) so may have an inflated sig radius.

But drones have needed all kinds of work, programming, UI and balancing, since... well, since forever. :)


Still doesn't make enough sense. Even if sig radius is just due to electronic emissions, why are shield-tanked Minmatar drones the same sig radius as armor-tanked and slow Gallente drones? Shouldn't the shield extenders make Minmatar and Caldari drones larger, signature-wise, and Gallente and Amarr drones smaller?
Mary Clarissa Titor
#45 - 2012-12-11 23:06:27 UTC
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Still doesn't make enough sense. Even if sig radius is just due to electronic emissions, why are shield-tanked Minmatar drones the same sig radius as armor-tanked and slow Gallente drones? Shouldn't the shield extenders make Minmatar and Caldari drones larger, signature-wise, and Gallente and Amarr drones smaller?


Probably. :)

Mind you, I think the whole approach to drones has always been problematic. If we follow reasonable design patterns like the ships do, (or at least, now do) drones should not have a singular damage type fixed by race -- they should have damage type matching their built-in weapon, which should probably match the typical damage pattern of the race that designed them. I.e. Gallente drones should be therm-kin, Caldari should be kin-therm, etc. Minmatar drones would probably employ a mix of different ammunition in their ammo feed belts, dealing a much more uniform damage type. Drones should probably not differ quite so much by speed or EHP -- they're ship-launched automatic weapon platforms, which have a fixed drone bay volume, far below that of the smallest frigate, just where would that difference go?

Fozzification of the whole set is in order, rethinking the whole system and making each drone viable for at least some common use. I just hope Fozzie does get around to it sometime soon, but seeing his previous work, I trust he'll think of something sensible when he does. :)
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#46 - 2012-12-11 23:20:08 UTC
Nah, I'd rather they just upped the AI even further to be able to shoot the turrets off of ships. At this point I'd get a lot more satisfaction in hearing the flood of tears that would cause from all the non-drone users and laughing as I tell them to just HTFU.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0

Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2012-12-12 00:02:55 UTC
Mund Richard wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Would be nice but would have to be damagable through means of smart bombs and FoF missiles.

Which in return would lead to battleships with as many hardpoints as highslots less useful, as you'll likely leave one for a smartbomb. And one for a Neut.
Suddenly the pest is even better.

I have a few rebuttles to that
1. When i can shoot the turrets off of your ship then things will be fair regarding weapon systems.
2. This would actually make them make a decision between full damage or survivability.
3. Nothing is stopping that ship from destrying the host drone ship.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Mund Richard
#48 - 2012-12-12 00:16:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Mund Richard wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Would be nice but would have to be damagable through means of smart bombs and FoF missiles.

Which in return would lead to battleships with as many hardpoints as highslots less useful, as you'll likely leave one for a smartbomb. And one for a Neut.
Suddenly the pest is even better.

I have a few rebuttles to that
1. When i can shoot the turrets off of your ship then things will be fair regarding weapon systems.
2. This would actually make them make a decision between full damage or survivability.
3. Nothing is stopping that ship from destrying the host drone ship.

MY ship? Roll
Hint: it has two flights of sentries (with spares).

1) I trained drones knowing they are a system that can be targeted, saw them on the overview at day one, ect...
Now, if there would be a module like the flamethrower in the BattleTech universe, allowing you to overheat your and the opponent's vessel... Twisted
2) The hardpoint thing I mentioned since I was under the impression there was some balancing done based on how well you can fit your highslots. For instance the phoon I mentioned is the only T1 BS that I can think of, that has two damage bonuses to the same weapon system, staying in-line by the fact that it has less hardpoints for them than the other all-out gunships, and 2 non-turret hardpoints opening up space for the dreaded/famous minmatar versatility.
3) True. It would just be one more (meta?)game in the game, trying to abuse creatively a game mechanic.
Kiting droneships? May sound silly, but imagine shield domis (heck, rattlesnakes) trying to burn away, keeping drones on you, with TD support or whatever. Or dropping sentries in one point, and then burning away diagonally. You can choose to go for the drones, SB them, but the domi will just drop a new wave. Or go after the domi, and the drones will have many a perfect clean shot on you.
Might not be an issue, I dunno, didn't think about it much, was just my first impression.
Heck! Make that a fleet of Ishtars, burning at different angles, dropping their Garde IIs all over the place.
Glorious Drone Mayhem Ensumes! Twisted
Now I want to see it done! Twisted

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.

Heimdallofasgard
Ministry of Furious Retribution
Fraternity.
#49 - 2012-12-12 00:21:27 UTC
As a Pilot who flies an Ishkur and algos I want to +1 this.

However, when flying solo in a drone boat with active reps going, you not only have to manage your own tank and cap and dps projection, but also the damage taken by your drones if the opponent is smart bomb fit or has the intelligence to start shooting your drones.

So long as drones don't become TOO overcomplicated so that trying to pvp with them becomes even more difficult then... I'm all for this.

Good post as always Stan
Seismic Stan
Freebooted Junkworks
#50 - 2012-12-12 01:17:46 UTC
Heimdallofasgard wrote:
As a Pilot who flies an Ishkur and algos I want to +1 this.

However, when flying solo in a drone boat with active reps going, you not only have to manage your own tank and cap and dps projection, but also the damage taken by your drones if the opponent is smart bomb fit or has the intelligence to start shooting your drones.

So long as drones don't become TOO overcomplicated so that trying to pvp with them becomes even more difficult then... I'm all for this.

Good post as always Stan


I would hope that any UI redesign would allow simplicity for those who prefer it but depth and versatility for folk who'd like to be more hands on. Done well I can't see why we couldn't have the best of both worlds.
Rytell Tybat
Doomheim
#51 - 2012-12-12 01:35:21 UTC
Pretty much agree with everything suggested. Also lots of good points in this thread. Sig radius of drones, balancing (uselessness of too many drones), hp, etc.

However, personally I wouldn't mind suffering those other things if the UI were given priority over everything else. For me its 3 things related to the drone UI (and actually EVE's UI as a whole). Function, Form and Gameplay.

Function
The UI needs to be easier to use. Right clicking to reveal a menu to select a command is terrible. I'm sure (hope) CCP realises this. Swapping drones from one group to another should be as easy as drag and drop (at least). Also, uh, why can't I see what the damage is to my drones when they're in my drone bay?

Form
Please CCP update the look and feel of this part of the UI. Please? How far in the future are we and we're still using hidden hierarchies and menus?

Gameplay
The UI should be designed in such a way that it should be fun to use this weapon system. As Stan has suggested, more control, different ways of controlling, etc. The UI shouldn't just be practical and look pretty, it should also be fun to use.

Some of the in development art work from fanfest was really encouraging. (drone bit starts at 1:32)
EVE UI

At the very least a good start at redesigning the UI. Still too cartoony tho ; )
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#52 - 2012-12-12 03:19:34 UTC
don't forget about the faction drones. Some of the faction drones have two damage types instead of one but are worse in all other attributes which make them basically nothing more as a collectors item.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value

Lady Joan
Solum Perimit
#53 - 2012-12-12 03:23:34 UTC
sorry for the English, translated automatically in google translator.Shocked

Pretty much agree with everything suggestedBig smile. Also lots of good points in this thread.Twisted

However, personally i would suggest changes to drones for them to be more in line with other weapons

the drones of all races are equal, just vary the type of damage they do, as occurs in missiles.

create new sentry's of all sizes to use in frigates and cruisers.

create a new module, which occupy a hight slot, being necessary to have one for each drone. This module increases the control of drones so that they could attack anything within range of the ship.

this new module would use scripts to change the use of each drone
       
sentry's script, long range: more optimal and falloff, less damage.
sentry's script, short range: less optimal and falloff, more damage.
both make the module work as a tractor beam, to keep the drones near the ship.and repairing the drones a small amount.

script to scout drones: speed - reconfigured the drones to be faster and better tracking.
script to scout drones: damage - reconfigured the drones to give more damage and have more hp's

a script to improve logistics drones, and electronic warfare.

to change scripts had to collect the drones and there would be a delay time before launching them again.

be possible to move drones from the cargo hold to drone bay in space, and this operation would take some time. so we could keep in combat longer, after losing the drones .

drones could be recovered, gather their Recks, for example a set of five recovered, the drone bay combining the pieces still functional to one or two new drones.

so we cut drone losses, able to stay on the fight longer, the drone ships only carry drones and no other guns, more specialized.

lower drone signature drastically so that it conforms to their size, increasing their survival

the drones should have a maximum time of permanence in space, then had to be collected and sent back after 5 or 10 seconds.
fukier
Gallente Federation
#54 - 2012-12-12 04:29:29 UTC
Plus 1 from me...

also would like to add the ability to use nano repair paste on them when they are docked that way you can rep your drones inside the drone bay

and two would be make the officer DCU usefull

other than that great ideas...
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
Thor Kerrigan
Guardians of Asceticism
#55 - 2012-12-12 08:41:46 UTC
Your tears are del- ... ivered in such a presentable and concise manner.
Kirluin
#56 - 2012-12-14 15:42:38 UTC
for general gameplay / user interface it would rock if drones had a style similar to homeworld/homeworld 2.

Formations, mixed tactical groups that know how to arrange themselves etc. I really dig the "command drone" concept too, add him to a flight to boost the other drones at the expense of dps.

I'm mainly a drone boater (still working on lazers), but i have to say that allowing drones from the cargo hold would probably not be a good idea unless many other things changed. A lot of the ship balance mechanics appear to be centered on drone bay size (which dictates how much a given ship can take advantage of drone flexibility), and allowing cargo hold as drone bay would change that quite a bit.

I'd rather not see drones turn into disposable ammo like rockets, but instead have smart and significantly different play style (mini fleet commander?) to turrets.
Jame Jarl Retief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#57 - 2012-12-14 16:42:58 UTC
Kirluin wrote:
I'd rather not see drones turn into disposable ammo like rockets, but instead have smart and significantly different play style (mini fleet commander?) to turrets.


Yep, this. If drones turn to ammo, where's the uniqueness? Might as well just scrap bays and whatnot and just add "drone launchers" as high hardpoints, and drones as ammo.

Mini-fleet commander is definitely a nice idea. Though I would like to see more payoff for the hassle of micromanaging the fleet, when the guy you're fighting doesn't even need to roll his face across the keyboard - just smashing it down on F1 key is usually sufficient.
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#58 - 2012-12-14 16:56:22 UTC
<-- Drone bunny and proud.

+1 on everything stated. ;)

Signature, travel time, combat speed, tracking, UI and Drone AI in general... the entire system does need work, if not a complete revamp. I love my drones, and would truly enjoy being able to have them as my primary system viably, rather than the assist (and at that, really only 3 specific drones, rather than options for all) that they currently are relegated to.

I also would like the option to repair drones in the drone bay. Maybe give it a specific drone-boat-only role ability? Just an idea to tack on with the rest.

~Z

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly

Hakan MacTrew
Konrakas Forged
Solyaris Chtonium
#59 - 2012-12-14 18:01:04 UTC
DNL - Drones Need Love
+1

Show more love, please read THIS thread too and comment! Get CCP to sort out Drones!
Leela Sirene
Peoples Liberation Army
Goonswarm Federation
#60 - 2012-12-14 19:54:02 UTC
Just because I already wrote my idea in another thread::

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2323472#post2323472

Maybe something like this.