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Warfare & Tactics

 
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In FW off grid boosting should be removed.
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Ezra Tair
Doomheim
#41 - 2012-12-10 17:14:14 UTC
I don't like off grid links either. Even more so not knowing its a 2v1 until the ship that should go about 5k/s does 6200k/s and I die. lol. Just gotta either avoid those guys or bring a friend to even it out.
Dan Carter Murray
#42 - 2012-12-11 02:14:10 UTC
Colt Blackhawk wrote:
Actually it is less important what a good pilot you are. Even one of the worst pilots with boosts will be successfull vs good pilots without boosts.


We just have to wait until they change OGB for the entire minmatar militia to failcascade Sad

http://mfi.re/?j7ldoco 50GB free space @ MediaFire.com
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#43 - 2012-12-11 02:16:23 UTC
Dan Carter Murray wrote:
Colt Blackhawk wrote:
Actually it is less important what a good pilot you are. Even one of the worst pilots with boosts will be successfull vs good pilots without boosts.


We just have to wait until they change OGB for the entire minmatar militia to failcascade Sad

Some of us think the same about you guys. Just sayin', biased viewpoints and all that.

My Claymore is ready to rock and roll once OGB is removed, though.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#44 - 2012-12-11 03:33:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Should be interesting to see whose predictions are more on target. (if any) Most plexing involves no concern about a few meters per second or a few km on a scram/disruptor.

How long until ccp ends this?

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Deerin
East Trading Co Ltd
#45 - 2012-12-11 07:23:47 UTC
Dan Carter Murray wrote:
Colt Blackhawk wrote:
Actually it is less important what a good pilot you are. Even one of the worst pilots with boosts will be successfull vs good pilots without boosts.


We just have to wait until they change OGB for the entire minmatar militia to failcascade Sad


Sadly both sides use it extensively. I do it too if it is available to me in the system. It already has become an obligatory purchase to stay competetive, which provides additional $$$ avenue for CCP.

The argued decreasing %5 bonus to %2 would essentially have minor impact.

Point range bonus will drop from 52% to 46% (36.5km -> 35km for t2 point)
Speed bonus will drop from 35% to 31% (Those frigs will still fly faster than your light missiles)

Not really a big deal.

Eve is about risking your assets and its consequences. A loki alt sitting at pos doesn't really risk anything and has a huge impact on how warfare goes. It is even crazier when you compare a linked RR fleet to a non linked one.

Actually I believe the code is already in place in form of HIC's. HIC's provide a "bubble" which assigns a certain property to all ships in it: "Ship cannot warp". Make these boosting ships provide a bubble in combat which assigns boost properties to ships. Make bubble 100k radius and you are done.

Look what this could lead into: The boosting ship "might be able to" choose the boost radius. Larger radius lower boosts smaller radius higher boosts etc.

Worried about too many bubbles and its effects lagging the system? Limit it to one bubble per ship and make the gang assist module scripted. Either providing all three bonuses at low levels, or providing one scripted bonus at a higher level. (Which is similar to all scripted module behaviour.)

I didn't really check all the features and ideas forum but I believe there will be tons of good ideas about a good implementation of boosters here. It is not only a fw problem. It is a general problem in the game.
Antares 04
Doomheim
#46 - 2012-12-11 08:56:10 UTC
Feffri wrote:
I personally don't mind off grid boosting i think it allows the small corps to have boosts, and allows them to be on an equal playing field. Before ogb'n smaller corps like mine couldn't afford damnations and claymores so we were at a disadvantage but we can afford ogbers because of the small amount you loose them. I would say a better nerf would be to make it so when say a loki turns on its skirmish links that even with ladar mods it would be as easy to scan down as a battleship.

However if they do get rid of ogbing then i'd like to see destroyers fill the small ship small gang role for fleet bonus's. E.G. thrasher is like a hurricane with no boost but has fitting reduction to fleet boost mods and a t2 version that acts like a claymore with ship bonus to fleet boosting. Leave whether it should be same boost or smaller up for debate. I would say same because as a destroyer it's much more squishy and can be taken off field easier but a 1-2% less boost per skill would also be ok. Also in big fleets it would be more difficult to pick out which character is the boosting character. This would allow newer players to fairly quickly get into a fleet boosting ship. Another thought is that they could make it so the destroyer can only boost a squad or 1 wing at most. So that it is only for small engagments.


The only difference between a Brutix giving gang bonuses and an Eos doing the same; The Eos can use 3 links at once. Instead of risking one ship in close-range on-grid bonuses you would be risking 3 at once. A Brutix costs 40 million. An Eos, 300. Your small corp that 'can't afford Command ships' can afford 3 ships that cost 7 times less than the one Eos, each running their own links, each taking part in the battle at hand instead of having one member staying off the field.

When off-grid boosting is dead, peopel will have to bring their boosters into engagement-range; where their enemies have a realistic chance of dealing with them.

There is no practical excuse for OGB's and that, compared to my example about cost and effect, makes your argument invalid.

OGB's are soon ot be dead. Deal with it and risk your booster's neck in battle. The player sitting in it might just enjoy the engagement, for once.
Colt Blackhawk
Doomheim
#47 - 2012-12-11 09:36:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Colt Blackhawk
Well it seems that the ogb nerf will be a joke.
Sorry but the game is ruined. I really blame all these little ogb kiddies who simply exploit the hell out of the game instead of having fun and a hobby.
Does CCP not see what ogb does? Probably a rookie ship with boosts can kill a slicer without boosts. You never know if you get a good fight or if you are simply ganked because some kiddies don´t want to have fun but want to stab you to death instead.
Sorry but sometimes I think this is "sociopath online".
I mean peeps like: "Oh I am a top pilot I have shot 300 peeps in 1vs1 or 1vs2 in my boosted faction fitted dram and every time I was loosing I simply burned out at 8.5k m/s. Or I snipe peeps in my oracle which goes over 2k m/s. Hahahah."
Sorry. CCP has done many faults. But I have really to blame the players. CCP can´t win as long as players don´t want to have simply fun with the game but exploit the hell out of the system like little kiddies, to simply stamp people into ground. They can balance and balance and balance. There will always be somewehere something to exploit and if everyone behaves like sociopath online instead of having fun with the rules like it is intended, instead forcing out "working not as intended to f... people and ruin their game" there will be simply less fun.
I would appreciate really more mature behaviour. It is a game. It is about having fun. And not about "f... everything out of the system and stamp other people to the ground".

I really can imagine how the CCP guys feel when they see how eve players f.... everything out of the rules to make "working not as intended to f... people" possible and every one blames the CCP guys for it.
Wrong. The people to blame for it are the players.

[09:04:53] Ashira Twilight > Plant the f****** amarr flag and s*** on their smoking wrecks.
Reppyk
The Black Shell
#48 - 2012-12-11 12:06:32 UTC
SMT008 wrote:
Yeah remove offgrid boosting so that my Loki alt becomes a Falcon alt like it should have been.

So what do you prefer, fighting a ship with enhanced capabilities, or fighting a ship you can't lock ?

EDIT :

If the boosting alt is on a gate, aggro it, he'll have to jump out within 20s. And, since it's a supposedly invulnerable alt on a gate, maybe someone isn't paying attention to it and you can get an easy T3 kill.

If the boosting alt is somewhere else in a safe, probe it.

If the boosting alt is in a tower, ask for the 1v1er to fight in the next system.

The best way to mess with boosting T3s is to fight around gates. If you manage to make them change system, the T3 won't be there for at least 2 to 3mns. Switching systems constantly makes it a massive PITA for the boosting alt.
Sup.

Not everyone is as bad as you... :o

I AM SPACE CAPTAIN REPPYK. BEWARE.

Proud co-admin of frugu.net, a French fansite about EVE !
Escomboli
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#49 - 2012-12-11 13:24:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Escomboli
Off-grid boosting shouldn't be removed, but it should be much more beneficial to have a booster on-grid. The simple solution that has been plaguing Eve for a long time would be to reduce the power of the boosts depending how far away the booster actually is. On grid you would get 100% of the boost, 100k off you would get 75% of the boost, and off grid you would get 50% of the boost or something along those lines. As it stands off-grid boosting gives way too much for pretty much no risk at all.

This would call for Command Ships to be adjusted to be fit for more tank, or more gank. Better yet have a tech 2 "command" line for Battleships. Make them less tanky, but offer a lot of support.

I vote for the second option.
Gunship
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#50 - 2012-12-11 13:57:49 UTC
Off grid boosting should always be 0%

Those ships that can boost due to example a warfare module on a command or BC should have a range associated with these modules. Lets say 50-100Km as default, then make some skill books to boost this a further 5% per level. The ship itself could also have a range bonus to a specific module type (example Amarr = armor, mini = speed).

I don't think there is a need to display a bubble in space, but a window next to each pilot so he can see his boosts at any given time could be cool. Example 5% speed bonus from "player1", 7% armor from "player2" etc... That way you could say thank you to the pilot that helped you out.

I'm not against boosting as long as it is within range of the fight and doing it makes you a valid target because you are part of the fleet.


 How To use a Probe Scanner in Eve Online

Colt Blackhawk
Doomheim
#51 - 2012-12-11 20:31:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Colt Blackhawk
Yeah congrats. My hook got eaten 2 mins ago by a offgrid legion and loki boosted executioner with weird speed, weird point range and due to legion boost even really hard tank.
That is a completely joke.

Edit: Yes a good fitted rookie ship would have eaten my hook too with these Loki and legion boosts. That is all completely crap.
Remove boosts from game.

[09:04:53] Ashira Twilight > Plant the f****** amarr flag and s*** on their smoking wrecks.
Angsty Teenager
Broski North
#52 - 2012-12-11 22:43:39 UTC
ITT: People who want to think boosts don't exist and so they still fly ships that are at a severe disadvantage vs ships with link alts.

Seriously, learn how to fly ships that don't require boosters to be effective and stop whinging. You want to fly a kiting hookbill? Too bad because that's a terrible idea. Learn to fly brawl ships and learn how to actually bait people into scram/web range and then just destroy them.

It's really not hard. I have link alts, but I hate using them outside of certain scenarios because it's annoying as **** to constantly move them to different systems. So I try to setup ships that don't require boosts to be effective versus the array of ships I want to fight--whether or not those ships have links.

I've give you a list since you seem to lack any sort of imagination and assume that you should be able to fly any ship you want and win.

Thrasher
Coercer
Algos
Talos
Daredevil
Navy Comet

I suggest you go and practice somewhere though because these aren't ships that you can just hit orbit at 20km and lol as you kite your targets to death (which is what a lot of you fellas seem to want to do).

I assure you that a thrasher going ~2500m/s overheated can quite easily kill a dramiel that goes 8.5km/s, just don't be a shitbag when it comes to manual piloting, and don't go charging in to every fight you see expecting to win (though frankly the thrasher is so cheap it doesn't even matter).

As far as cruiser/BC PVP goes, you're kinda dumb if you think you can go at it alone. Chances are you'll end up fighting a gang of a couple people even if they don't have links. Flying with 1 or 2 other people is actually quite a bit more fun and brings a lot more tactics to the table. Let me give you an example:

http://dog-net.org/brdoc/?brid=14929

That fight was basically 1x Exequror and 2x Vexors for most of the fight. The rupture came in at the very end when we got overblobbed beyond what we could deal with, and one of the vexors died early. We also had gate guns the entire fight, as we started the fight by aggroing and killing a hurricane off gate. The most notable kill is this hilarious gem:

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15443675

(I couldn't get on the killmail becuase I had to keep gate guns off my exequror, feels bad man.)

Regardless this is the sort of thing that you can do in a gang of 3 people. I have no idea if they had loki links or not, but regardless it didn't matter because the vexor(s) were tackled the whole time and the exequror goes fast enough to quite easily avoid evreything but frigates which I took great care to get my gang members to put drones on and kill so that I didn't get killed.

All of this whinging about links always annoys me because while I agree they are overpowered in pvp (note that I say pvp, not pve), they are only overpowered if you are flying setups that heavily benefit from them. By using brawling setups, loki links offer marginal improvement only (providing longer scram/web range), and pretty much all of the benefit that kiting setups get from them is lost once those setups get scrammed. It's all about picking your fights and playing the fight correctly. it's easy to win with heavily imbalanced odds, regardless of whether that is a blob vs you, or a some guy with loki links. Just don't be ******** and don't expect to be able to win every fight.
Colt Blackhawk
Doomheim
#53 - 2012-12-11 22:54:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Colt Blackhawk
@Angsty Teenager
Oh yeah i wanna see how you get a 4k m/s rail harpy that scrams (YEAH SCRAMS!) you at almost 30k in your scram range. Good luck.
It is ruinining the game simply because every noob in overboosted rokie ship is able to shoot a tech2 frig. And because you never know if you get a good fight or suddenly you get scrammed at 30k.

Edit: I am in amarr militia. 90% of all fights I engage a target I get blobbed by 5+ ships within 10seconds. I need to kite to have the possibility to chicken out if that happens. If I brawl I am simply dead then.

[09:04:53] Ashira Twilight > Plant the f****** amarr flag and s*** on their smoking wrecks.
Angsty Teenager
Broski North
#54 - 2012-12-11 23:02:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Angsty Teenager
Colt Blackhawk wrote:
@Angsty Teenager
Oh yeah i wanna see how you get a 4k m/s rail harpy that scrams (YEAH SCRAMS!) you at almost 30k in your scram range. Good luck.
It is ruinining the game simply because every noob in overboosted rokie ship is able to shoot a tech2 frig. And because you never know if you get a good fight or suddenly you get scrammed at 30k.


I suspect that you are bad at pvp due to your inability to know ranges (?) Even with the best faction scram and loki links, the max scram range overheated is 20.2km. And I assure you he doesn't have a faction scram. I suggest you do one of two things. Either bring more people, or fly a ship that has variable weapon ranges, i.e. a coercer and simply shoot him so he has to leave.

You can't expect to win the fight, obviously, that's like expecting to win a 2 or 3v1. You simply need to escape. If you're mad about not being able to kill him--that is a completely seperate issue and you are actually mad about not being able to find people that go out solo. That has nothing to do with loki links at all. Those people who fly frigs with loki links would still not fly solo frigs if loki links were not available. They would either fly in groups, fly with a falcon alt, or not fly at all.

Also, I would land on him at zero, or just not engage. It's pretty simple really. If you think that burning from 70km towards a harpy is a good idea you are braindead.

Colt Blackhawk wrote:
Edit: I am in amarr militia. 90% of all fights I engage a target I get blobbed by 5+ ships within 10seconds. I need to kite to have the possibility to chicken out if that happens. If I brawl I am simply dead then.


Perhaps you should make some friends and fight with them. You seem to think it's unfair for people to use loki links, but fair for you to kite and kill a group of people (which is exactly what people with loki links do).

Pick a side mate.
Angsty Teenager
Broski North
#55 - 2012-12-11 23:06:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Angsty Teenager
Ugh, double post, my bad.
Colt Blackhawk
Doomheim
#56 - 2012-12-11 23:08:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Colt Blackhawk
@Angsty Teenager.
I have very many people who can tell you that it is possible to get scrammed by a harpy at 30+km. Because they already got scrammed at 30+km. Me too.
Ask Gorski....
Learn the game.

Edit: and don´t compare kiting with using loki links. Kiting is even okay vs brawlers because the brawler has a chance to grab you. But not if you have interceptor speed in an assault frig with unbelievable point range. With that a brawler is auto dead and a kiter without lokis will get kited.

[09:04:53] Ashira Twilight > Plant the f****** amarr flag and s*** on their smoking wrecks.
Angsty Teenager
Broski North
#57 - 2012-12-12 00:09:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Angsty Teenager
This discussion is pointless because you insist on believing things that are not true. You CANNOT be scrammed at further than 20km. Any situation where this is the case is due to you be desynced, which is not due to loki links

Obviously there is some leeway due to the fact that the scram will only cycle off at beyond 20km at the end of it's cycle, but this again has nothing do with loki links.

And this is only the case with the best faction point and loki links. In most cases, 15km is a safe bet for scram range on somebody who has loki links.

Learn the game, then we can talk.
Colt Blackhawk
Doomheim
#58 - 2012-12-12 08:06:52 UTC
Can please someone of the iprot 150 members or even gorski confirm that it is possible if you read this here? :P

[09:04:53] Ashira Twilight > Plant the f****** amarr flag and s*** on their smoking wrecks.
Gunship
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#59 - 2012-12-12 09:47:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Gunship
Angsty Teenager,

Not sure why you are posting in this thread? Is it because you want to tell us how uber a pilot you are or because you don't want us to make your off grid booster useless?

Please tell me why something that is off grid and in FW scenario very safe sitting at a gate should give a boost to any ship for any reason?

 How To use a Probe Scanner in Eve Online

jjohnpaul xvii
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#60 - 2012-12-12 11:46:01 UTC  |  Edited by: jjohnpaul xvii
Colt Blackhawk wrote:
Yeah congrats. My hook got eaten 2 mins ago by a offgrid legion and loki boosted executioner with weird speed, weird point range and due to legion boost even really hard tank.
That is a completely joke.


Learn to read your KMs.
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15480375

Learn lessons every time you lose.
Learn to check targets fittings or at least learn that they might be doing this to you in return.
Learn that people might expect kinetic damage from a hookbill and tank accordingly.
Learn to use scan. If you see that Loki and legion on scan be aware that they might be used against you and vary your tactics accordingly.
Learn your scram ranges. Vital if your going to kite.
Learn your ships limitations and your engagement envelope.
Learn not to engage Machariels, or EM spewing Omens in that HB with the MWD full on.
Learn tactical awareness.
Learn there are better HB fits out there. At least learn to vary your fits (especially in something as flexible as a HB) to catch people off guard. Even more so in FW, where you will inevitably fight the same guys again.
Learn that Gorski and Iprot are not your personal eve wiki - get EFT, get on google do your own research (even though angtsy pretty much spelled this out for you)

Its not OGB that lost you that Hookbill (or any of the others you have lost recently). Those hookbills were dead 5 times over before you even undocked them, and another 5 times over the minute you loaded grids.

I fully respect the fact you go out there and aggressively hunt for pew, but EVEs an exceedingly tough game, and you will be doing a lot of QQing if you rage every time you lose a frigate. If you dont want to fly in a gang, but your not prepared to put in some effort to learn basics then this game will eat you. Its utterly savage - but its what makes it so brilliant.