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Message to CCP - New AI completely destroyed complexes

First post
Author
White Sorceress
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2012-12-10 08:50:25 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Suvetar
Yes man, I have been running complexes when you all were a small babies. Yes man, I am not rich person in real life and I used to pay for my account running complexes and also that was the way I was making isk for pvp from time to time. Since you nerfed the ratio of dropping expensive stuff (like x-shield boosters) and replaced them with nothing just like 23' effects and nothing more this all resulted just in wasting more time running/searching complexes to can pay all that needs to be paid. But hey, I learned to live with that. BUT IT IS ALL OVER NOW. !!!

CCP you really should employ someone like me who can test your new changes before you destroy the most important thing and that's income for most people (making ISK by shooting NPC).

So here is the way most people (including myself) run complexes. We have cloaky T3, that can probe + run through bubble (nullifier subsystem) + tank the complex of any difficulty. Once we find it and probe it, we return back to scout the way for our dps dealers (ships that are fitted to fly fast and deal maximum dps). Then we always warp in in our T3 tank tengu and once we get full agro, damage dealers are called in and their start killing npc. This usually takes 1 hour to finish 10/10 complex in angel space, doing over 1500 dps. THE KEY of success of this we have very expensively fitted T3 that can tank even the last room where is the boss or station firing citadel torpedoes. The T3 is able to tank it, but in exchange of not having any guns. Saved CPU and PG you can use for extra x-large shield booster instead of large shield booster and that allowes you to tank even last room including final boss / station. AND THIS IS OVER. WHY? Because npc are now swtiching targets. There is not any single ship that can deal intelligent amount of dps, is fast enough, has good enough range of guns and can have tank over 1k dps that is needed for all rooms except the last room. And even if you use some damn expensive marauder like Vargur, use the best dead space fit (gist x type) and waste like 5 billion on it, it still can not tank last boss, who is switching target as well and once you would warp in the last room in vargur (battleship class) it will immediately switch to bigger target from tengu. No need to mendtion that we fly in enemy territory and moving 5b vargur throught enemy systems is not easy thing. Especially when you hit some good drop like 1 time from 10, so it's almost no worth.

I have been living in querious for pretty long time, running blood raiders complexes every day. Now I can give awesome tip to all market guys, go and buy all bhaalgorns blueprint u can find, because their price will increase dramatically. WHY? Because nobody will be able to run 10/10 complex in blood raider space since now. The final station deals HUGE emount of DPS that only very high specialized ship can survive. Yes man, it's passively tanked loki with over 97% rezistance to EM damage. Anything else, even with logistics behind will just pop. So only way to find bhaalgorns now will be some lucky drop from 8/10 or 7/10. Good luck in doing that. I got bhaalgorn ONE TIME from 7/10 and I have done like 50 of them.

NEW NPC AI completely changes complexes. IT's almost impossible to run any of them, especially 10/10 or 8/10. Switching targets simply makes it impossible. I personally don't have 3b to get some high specialized marauder. I don't have time and patience to run missions in high sec making 20-30M/hour. I like to shoot and I don't like to do market stuff. My accounts cost 1.2b every month that i need to pay to keep my accounts alive. It was already on the border now, spending most of my free time in weekends running damn complexes so survive another month. But now it's over. I don't see any way how to make ISK anymore!

I will wait one month if CCP realizes they totally ****** it up. After that I don't see any other way than letting my accounts expire and wait what happens.

Very bad job CCP, you really need someone who understands this game from inside ! Thumbs down !
Dilligafmofo
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2012-12-10 08:56:34 UTC
hey complex expert... man.

try adapting to the changes instead of dismissing them out of hand. Just because you can't do things how you used to, doesn't mean it's broken. It just means you are too stupid to adapt, yet.

Funky Lazers
Funk Freakers
#3 - 2012-12-10 09:03:54 UTC
White Sorceress wrote:
Yes man, I have been running complexes when you all were a small babies. Yes man, I am not rich person in real life and I used to pay for my account running complexes and also that was the way I was making isk for pvp from time to time. Since you nerfed the ratio of dropping expensive stuff (like x-shield boosters) and replaced them with nothing just like 23' effects and nothing more this all resulted just in wasting more time running/searching complexes to can pay all that needs to be paid. But hey, I learned to live with that. BUT IT IS ALL OVER NOW. !!!

CCP you really should employ someone like me who can test your new changes before you destroy the most important thing and that's income for most people (making ISK by shooting NPC).

So here is the way most people (including myself) run complexes. We have cloaky T3, that can probe + run through bubble (nullifier subsystem) + tank the complex of any difficulty. Once we find it and probe it, we return back to scout the way for our dps dealers (ships that are fitted to fly fast and deal maximum dps). Then we always warp in in our T3 tank tengu and once we get full agro, damage dealers are called in and their start killing npc. This usually takes 1 hour to finish 10/10 complex in angel space, doing over 1500 dps. THE KEY of success of this we have very expensively fitted T3 that can tank even the last room where is the boss or station firing citadel torpedoes. The T3 is able to tank it, but in exchange of not having any guns. Saved CPU and PG you can use for extra x-large shield booster instead of large shield booster and that allowes you to tank even last room including final boss / station. AND THIS IS OVER. WHY? Because npc are now swtiching targets. There is not any single ship that can deal intelligent amount of dps, is fast enough, has good enough range of guns and can have tank over 1k dps that is needed for all rooms except the last room. And even if you use some damn expensive marauder like Vargur, use the best dead space fit (gist x type) and waste like 5 billion on it, it still can not tank last boss, who is switching target as well and once you would warp in the last room in vargur (battleship class) it will immediately switch to bigger target from tengu. No need to mendtion that we fly in enemy territory and moving 5b vargur throught enemy systems is not easy thing. Especially when you hit some good drop like 1 time from 10, so it's almost no worth.

I have been living in querious for pretty long time, running blood raiders complexes every day. Now I can give awesome tip to all market guys, go and buy all bhaalgorns blueprint u can find, because their price will increase dramatically. WHY? Because nobody will be able to run 10/10 complex in blood raider space since now. The final station deals HUGE emount of DPS that only very high specialized ship can survive. Yes man, it's passively tanked loki with over 97% rezistance to EM damage. Anything else, even with logistics behind will just pop. So only way to find bhaalgorns now will be some lucky drop from 8/10 or 7/10. Good luck in doing that. I got bhaalgorn ONE TIME from 7/10 and I have done like 50 of them.

NEW NPC AI completely changes complexes. IT's almost impossible to run any of them, especially 10/10 or 8/10. Switching targets simply makes it impossible. I personally don't have 3b to get some high specialized marauder. I don't have time and patience to run missions in high sec making 20-30M/hour. I like to shoot and I don't like to do market stuff. My accounts cost 1.2b every month that i need to pay to keep my accounts alive. It was already on the border now, spending most of my free time in weekends running damn complexes so survive another month. But now it's over. I don't see any way how to make ISK anymore!

I will wait one month if CCP realizes they totally ****** it up. After that I don't see any other way than letting my accounts expire and wait what happens.

Very bad job CCP, you really need someone who understands this game from inside ! Thumbs down !


Yes man!
I agree.
For some reason I can feel your pain.

Whatever.

Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#4 - 2012-12-10 10:07:56 UTC
once again, captain caps lock has saved the day....

I should buy an Ishtar.

Gerard Hareka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2012-12-10 10:53:04 UTC
It is a good change.

If you are afraid of bhalgorn bpc going up , well it will make worth it to run complexes in group not solo which is only a good thing.
I applause changes to the AI. It could be even better and more deadly.
dexington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#6 - 2012-12-10 11:37:18 UTC
White Sorceress wrote:
I personally don't have 3b...


You claim to be some expert in exploration, yet you are space poor... something don't add up there...

I'm doing hi/low sec exploration solo in a T1 battlecruiser, with anything above 5/10 out of my reach, and it seems i'm making more isk then you. I started doing exploration in a new area 2 months ago with some 100M isk to spend, now i have 2-3B i assist, i have given away 1B to friends and i have some 5B in isk and market orders.

Maybe you are just not as good at this game as you think you are...

I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous.

Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#7 - 2012-12-10 11:45:58 UTC
dexington wrote:
White Sorceress wrote:
I personally don't have 3b...


You claim to be some expert in exploration, yet you are space poor... something don't add up there...


Those who do tend not to rant.

Invalid signature format

Jack Miton
Perkone
Caldari State
#8 - 2012-12-10 11:50:18 UTC
Hey AAA, arent you meant to be taking over Wh space or something for isk farming?
Would have though youd moved on from crappy plexs...

seriously tho, lrn2spidertank

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout

Caldari Citizen20121206
Great Eastern
#9 - 2012-12-10 12:58:42 UTC
Hey, this is nearly the same topic as mine. The only solution that i found to make complexes like this is going with 2 guardians and armor battleships, or a single pimp fitted vindicator (1800dps). I was doing complexes in stain (sansha npc) and im a billionarie so i can afford to bring this kind of equipment to a ded site, but most of us cant. As you can guess this whole change is only bringing money to my own personal kitchen since in the region i live i know maybe 3-4 pilots who have 2 LOGI V alts, making the value of the site go up and my chances of making a site more likely. BUT im not happy with it, beacause i think it is unfair to make people train their alts for 2-3 months and invest billions just because ccp wanted to make more "options" in PVE. This whole change to AI narrows the way to make complexes to like 2-3 solutions.



Dont let me make unfair amounts of money, let the new and casual pilots have some money too...
stoicfaux
#10 - 2012-12-10 13:45:40 UTC
I think what the OP is saying is that some missions will in fact need to be rebalanced, the most egregious example being the EM Torpedo of Doom. Or CCP will have to admit to players that no matter what you do, your fleet *will* lose a ship to that uber torpedo.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

White Sorceress
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2012-12-10 14:03:02 UTC  |  Edited by: White Sorceress
1. This has nothing to do with AAA. This is my freedom decision to write here. So post about moving AAA to WH is really out of this. Also income from running complexes is much higher than harvesting C320 in WH space. I have been doing that for two years so I believe I know very well that I am saying.
2. I am not billionaire because I am fully working person and I work 12-16 hours every day 6 days per week. If you are making billions in battlecruiser in low sec trust me you would be many times richer if you would spend same amount of time running complexes in null sec.
3. When I get some nice drop I don't save it to have nice budget but I buy pvp ships and go to do some pvp because that's what I love abut this game. PVP
4. Mr. ADAPT. Please show me here some exact strategy you would use to finish 10/10 angels shypiard. I really want to see your "adapt to new situation". Maybe you are better than me, or simply as most people, you are just forum warrior who knows everything but in real game he knows nothing. As I said it's impossible to use any ship that is not worth of 4b (including fit obviously) that would be able to tank last room.
5. Making complexes in group is not solution. You can definitelly tank all rooms except the last one. Rooms before the last is just joke and you don'tt need high rezistance / buffer so can survive it before you friend will put remotes on you and save you. But even if you have 20 man fleet. That citadel torpedo in blood raider space is ONE SHOT ONE KILL. Doesn't matter how many remotes u have got there.
6. There is difference between make it harder and make it impossible. And yes I am saying 10/10 becomes impossible.
7. Also maybe some of you do not realize that finishing 10/10 takes in angel space 1 hour with 1500 DPS and very well fitted ship for that (fast, good tracking, drones, huge dps). Now imagine you have ship able to survive even last room but you are dealing 500 DPS (tengu, HAM legion). So you are suppousted to make 10/10 for 3 hours. Good luck if you survive long enough and nobody wil probe you down and try to kill you.
Bobbechk
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#12 - 2012-12-10 14:10:14 UTC
Try joining an Alliance with access to sovereignty space

That way you don't have to bring throw away glasscannon ships behind enemy lines to do the job of a proper fleet

Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Already Replaced.
#13 - 2012-12-10 14:18:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
While the op might be a bit over the top, the "really smart" people replying to him have no clue about what they are talking about.

Here, let me help you:

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Blood_Raider_Naval_Shipyard

Quote:
Final room

20 battleships many of which will drain your capacitor.
10 cruisers
15 frigates some of which will warp scramble, web and tracking disrupt you.
8 stasis towers
6 point defense batteries
4 cruise missile batteries

Blood Raider Fleet Stronghold


For people bad at math that's 64 things in there that will shoot and EWAR you, full room aggro as soon as you land (not a bug, it's always been that way).

The stronghold shoots a torp at you that can insta-pop battleships. If you look back at the forum thread for the "Brain nom nom" dev blog about the npc AI changes, you will see that I specifically talked about this plex (edited to provide link), I even asked the CCP DEVs specifically if they had tested it, to which the never replied.

This 10/10 isn't a matter of "bring more people" or "figure it out", and it's not just the torp that is the issue. Dark Blood Fleet Staging point 3 shoots the same torp at you as well, I just last night tanked that in a Rattlesnake orbiting the torp chucker station at 60km while my machariel killed everything else then the station (it's a VERY good thing at least that CCP decided to not apply the new AI to overseers and turrets, in fleet staging point 3 you can get the overseer and neuts on your tank ship and the dps ship only needs to worry about the rest of the room).

No, the 10/10 is a different beast because of those ships and towers. Complexes like BRNS should have been re-done BEFORE new AI was applied to it and several of us told CCP this over and over and over again in various threads related to the AI changes. Adding even watered down sleeper like AI to plexes like these result in disaster. Before you could tank it with a loki and bring in logi and dps behind, not anymore.

For you wormhole and incursion guys, imagine a wormhole anomalie or incursion HQ site with 4 or 5 times as many ships in them as they have right now, THAT is what plexes like BRNS are like now, basically unsurvivable.
However, UNLIKE those wormhole or incursion sites, the plexes CCP just screwed up have NO GUARANTEED PAYOUT, so you have to risk billions in ships for maybe an OPE and some bounties and occasionally some deadspace loot.

I'm sure CCP will eventually get around to wasting more time and money fixing what never had to be broken in the 1st place (after we warned them that this would happen), but it's all a little frustrating.
penifSMASH
ElitistOps
Trigger Happy.
#14 - 2012-12-10 14:29:32 UTC
People still rat for isk? I thought everyone had personal tech moons like me vOv
Fonac
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2012-12-10 15:16:55 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
While the op might be a bit over the top, the "really smart" people replying to him have no clue about what they are talking about.

Here, let me help you:

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Blood_Raider_Naval_Shipyard

Quote:
Final room

20 battleships many of which will drain your capacitor.
10 cruisers
15 frigates some of which will warp scramble, web and tracking disrupt you.
8 stasis towers
6 point defense batteries
4 cruise missile batteries

Blood Raider Fleet Stronghold


For people bad at math that's 64 things in there that will shoot and EWAR you, full room aggro as soon as you land (not a bug, it's always been that way).

The stronghold shoots a torp at you that can insta-pop battleships. If you look back at the forum thread for the "Brain nom nom" dev blog about the npc AI changes, you will see that I specifically talked about this plex (edited to provide link), I even asked the CCP DEVs specifically if they had tested it, to which the never replied.

This 10/10 isn't a matter of "bring more people" or "figure it out", and it's not just the torp that is the issue. Dark Blood Fleet Staging point 3 shoots the same torp at you as well, I just last night tanked that in a Rattlesnake orbiting the torp chucker station at 60km while my machariel killed everything else then the station (it's a VERY good thing at least that CCP decided to not apply the new AI to overseers and turrets, in fleet staging point 3 you can get the overseer and neuts on your tank ship and the dps ship only needs to worry about the rest of the room).

No, the 10/10 is a different beast because of those ships and towers. Complexes like BRNS should have been re-done BEFORE new AI was applied to it and several of us told CCP this over and over and over again in various threads related to the AI changes. Adding even watered down sleeper like AI to plexes like these result in disaster. Before you could tank it with a loki and bring in logi and dps behind, not anymore.

For you wormhole and incursion guys, imagine a wormhole anomalie or incursion HQ site with 4 or 5 times as many ships in them as they have right now, THAT is what plexes like BRNS are like now, basically unsurvivable.
However, UNLIKE those wormhole or incursion sites, the plexes CCP just screwed up have NO GUARANTEED PAYOUT, so you have to risk billions in ships for maybe an OPE and some bounties and occasionally some deadspace loot.

I'm sure CCP will eventually get around to wasting more time and money fixing what never had to be broken in the 1st place (after we warned them that this would happen), but it's all a little frustrating.



Every single thing this man said + the op.
I've run complexes EXTENSIVELY. On top of plexes being incredibly unbalanced(Serpentis ones being a joke - 10/10 tower that does 7200 damage per hit + ships that has natively high resist against it AND no cap drain)
And then you have the blood raider / Sansha plexes, where you have end towers that does 180k EM damage AND cap drain. + very few ships that have a high native resist. AND have to be tanked passively.

It's a known fact blood raiders / sansha plexes are much harder, and now after this change i fear they're borderline impossible to do. I did a 8/10 in blood raider space the other day, which beforehand was easy enough with the right setup, however with the AI changes i almost lost my ships twice, first time because i was to slow at reacting to the AI switching targets.
Second time at final room, where my "tank" got scrammed and webbed, and took heavy damage, now what happens is i release my droens.. and what do i see? a whole damn room switching to them, as you might have guessed they evapurated in seconds.
Afterwards they all decide to switch to my logi pilot, which barely got repped up by my other ships, however i made it and called it a victory.

In all honesty it was fun, more fun than nothing haveing to fear loosing a ship.. i do however feel the AI need some balancing, because right now it just seems more bugged than functioning.



Then some will probably quote me later and say, "dude run with a fleet... More people make it easire!".
Yea alright, then here goes the next issue, - Loot.

I got a 21st overseer from that site, this suffice for me doing solo, but no way in hell am i going to use 1½ hours on doing a plex for 50 mill.

Wrote this quickly your eyes, if you're the gramma police.
Everyone Selfdestruct
Doomheim
#16 - 2012-12-10 15:37:59 UTC
Fonac wrote:

In all honesty it was fun, more fun than nothing haveing to fear loosing a ship..


Seems like it is working as intended then!
Fonac
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#17 - 2012-12-10 16:04:56 UTC
Everyone Selfdestruct wrote:
Fonac wrote:

In all honesty it was fun, more fun than nothing haveing to fear loosing a ship..


Seems like it is working as intended then!



Agreed. More fun is always good.
Even tho the AI change would have a big hit on my operations i'm supportive of the change. The Ai of the old was an antique.

However this does not adress the fact that it seems overly bugged. I mean comon, a whole fleet of cruisers + frigates attacking my drones 2½ sec after i unleash them?

And the plexes are still horrondous to run.
Amanda Haley
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2012-12-10 16:53:33 UTC
As a fellow explorer I feel for you man. I would simply unsub and get it over with. Don't want to throw insults, but CCP has big company problems where changes are driven by people who has little clue about the game, or base on too little research.

Also lol at everyone saluting the change and suggesting "adapt". Bunch of masochists and elite kids club, nothing more. As a working person my self, I don't need such tedious game. As I pay for my subs with real cash, all i need is to grind for pvp, but if that will cause more pain than fun (grind ass off for mere t2 BS fit) I will simply walk away. Tbh this is worse change than the monocle for real money. Difference is not everyone are affected to same degree, hence missile/lazor boats and guys with 5 alts have it easier.



Caldari Citizen 211212125
the unified
Negative Ten.
#19 - 2012-12-10 17:06:51 UTC
This makes me all warm and Fuzzy inside.
I hope this gives all you mission, Plexing peeps an insight what us Wh dwellers have to deal with. And hopefully you may stop crying over the isk we make because we deserve it for what we have to do to make our isk .
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings
#20 - 2012-12-10 17:14:16 UTC
Caldari Citizen 211212125 wrote:
This makes me all warm and Fuzzy inside.
I hope this gives all you mission, Plexing peeps an insight what us Wh dwellers have to deal with. And hopefully you may stop crying over the isk we make because we deserve it for what we have to do to make our isk .



As a WH dweller, I'll be the first to say that while we have dealt with the new style AI for quite some time, it is important to point out that the sites are designed with that AI in mind.

I would agree with the OP that sites and missions etc need to be reworked to go along with the AI changes. With the old style AI, the only way to make a site harder was to add numbers.

That being said, the message would probably come across better if the OP hadn't been a all caps yelling, butthurt sounding whiner.
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