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What in the HECK is going on with Mineral Prices

Author
Skydell
Bad Girl Posse
Somethin Awfull Forums
#21 - 2012-12-07 03:12:47 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Skydell wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Skydell wrote:
As more and more stuff gets stealth nerfed to 40% reproc, it will only get worse.

Our 'emergent' game play 'emerges' when a new patch comes out.
While I do agree with you on manipulation, it's broader and doesn't really apply in the case of minerals. I'd speculate and say we are just now running out of drone region stocks.


? Stealth nerfed?



Do I really need to spell it out for you?

Reproc a cruiser, reproc a Barge.
They don't reproc at 90% of build. They reproc at 40% because they modified the build costs and kept reproc at old values to keep people from creating minerals. A short term fix with a long term nerf as a result.



Ahh. I see your point. I don't agree with it, but I understand what you mean.

Short version, because I'm not looking for an argument: It's not a nerf, because there is no /reduction/ in the materials you get back. Just an increase in what you have to put in.

While I might be wrong, I don't think reprocessing of this kind of thing isn't a major mineral transfer point. No numbers on it though.


It's only a nerf if you have a large fleet of something. By example, if I owned 2000 Exec because I liked the 900 M3 base cargo and decide to ditch them now that its a logi boat, I can't reproc them to build a new fleet. Not at a reasonable return.

It will hurt more if they follow trend and do the same with BC and Battleships. Imagine your alliance has 20,000 Drakes for reimbursement and a change in doctrine turns those in to 8000 Drakes by reproc.
Knownasthatguy
Short Bus Pole Dancers
#22 - 2012-12-07 05:14:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Knownasthatguy
Toroup wrote:
So much missing information here (I particularly love the first reply about tears - which is less than worthless).

Mineral requirements for the Hurricane increased with the last patch so what everyone did was run a crap load of prepatch Hurricanes at the lower requirements and flooded the market. The same thing happened with mining barges last patch. I think that Retrievers are still selling for lower than the build value because of the backlog.

If you buy one now and reprocess it, it will reprocess at the original mineral value and not the higher amount - the missing materials are considered "extra" - this was done so that people couldn't make a ton of them prepatach and then make isk reprocessing them.

So, long answer to a short question, building new Hurricanes now will be a loss. The price will increase as the flooded market is bought out but there is no telling how long that will be.



The interesting thing here is being able to clearly identify the intersect on the slope where cost of "pvp" exceeds player income. If it's more expensive to build the ships (buying ore from miners or off market) than buying off the market, then where are the income streams to keep pace with inflation?

Does the game offer income opportunities (missions and such) to keep up with inflation, on an individual basis, or is everyone going to have to be in some large alliance in nullsec or pushed to wh space? Is this game fundamentally being changed into one where the player is required to spend more and more time online to grind isk? I would hate to see this game turn into a "larger fish in the pond" scenario where all the little guys get eaten up.

Does anyone know what CCP brings in on GTCs every month?
Skydell
Bad Girl Posse
Somethin Awfull Forums
#23 - 2012-12-07 06:29:17 UTC
The game has been a grind your guts out game for most players for a while. It isn't the only game to be pure gear grind but it's one of the most intense.
Nevryn Takis
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2012-12-07 11:55:26 UTC
I think the OP is confused ..the title asks what is happening to mineral prices but he complains about the build costs of a particular ship..

Based on the trends on the last week mineral prices look like they're starting to come back down to where they were a month or so ago, no that the spike caused by people buying them like crazy to build cruisers pre-patch has burst.

Perhaps the OP should pay more attention to the market.... an analysis would show how many cruisers are now selling at below production cost, and as posted on another thread there are toons out there that have thousands of crusiers, so this situation is likely to remain well into 2014..
Darenthul
Anstard Armory Inc.
#25 - 2012-12-07 17:23:04 UTC
Toroup wrote:
Darenthul wrote:
Toroup wrote:
So much missing information here (I particularly love the first reply about tears - which is less than worthless).

Mineral requirements for the Hurricane increased with the last patch so what everyone did was run a crap load of prepatch Hurricanes at the lower requirements and flooded the market. The same thing happened with mining barges last patch. I think that Retrievers are still selling for lower than the build value because of the backlog.

If you buy one now and reprocess it, it will reprocess at the original mineral value and not the higher amount - the missing materials are considered "extra" - this was done so that people couldn't make a ton of them prepatach and then make isk reprocessing them.

So, long answer to a short question, building new Hurricanes now will be a loss. The price will increase as the flooded market is bought out but there is no telling how long that will be.


In our region at the moment Retrievers seem to be back to normal. Cheaper to make than to buy.


Jita low sell right now is 23.9M so it's still pretty off in The Forge. I think that build is something like 32-33M.


That's crazy, maybe I should just go buy a bunch of and bring them out instead.

"I find mining to be an incredibly relaxing thing to do after work. It's like fishing without waking up early. Or cold. But the beer, the beer is the same." - arramdaywalker

Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#26 - 2012-12-07 19:58:42 UTC
If you put up buy orders for minerals in out of the way systems you can get them for a much lower cost than their value at trade hubs. Build stuff from those minerals and sell, and you can make isk even if it looks like you are selling "under cost".

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Knownasthatguy
Short Bus Pole Dancers
#27 - 2012-12-08 22:38:11 UTC
Nevryn Takis wrote:
I think the OP is confused ..the title asks what is happening to mineral prices but he complains about the build costs of a particular ship..

Based on the trends on the last week mineral prices look like they're starting to come back down to where they were a month or so ago, no that the spike caused by people buying them like crazy to build cruisers pre-patch has burst.

Perhaps the OP should pay more attention to the market.... an analysis would show how many cruisers are now selling at below production cost, and as posted on another thread there are toons out there that have thousands of crusiers, so this situation is likely to remain well into 2014..


Nevryn,
Please excuse yourserlf from this conversation if all you have to offer are comments that don't push the conversation forward.
Back in 2007 and 2008, Trit had a trend line that floated around 2 - 3 isk/unit. Today it's almost double that. My forum post is to gain insight to a seemingly open markt pushed by game consumers (player base) yielding what seems to be a market trend that outpaces player income (earned thru the game, not GTCs) . Is there truely a larger consumer base for pvp goods than suppliers of said goods? Is the mere fact that someone can spend out of game cash for in game isk making this a suppliers market, because people can and will afford more "shinny ships"?
Knownasthatguy
Short Bus Pole Dancers
#28 - 2012-12-08 22:39:19 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
If you put up buy orders for minerals in out of the way systems you can get them for a much lower cost than their value at trade hubs. Build stuff from those minerals and sell, and you can make isk even if it looks like you are selling "under cost".



Is there an eve population density map that shows where most players are at (out of game that is)?
Ruvin
Siberian Squads
#29 - 2012-12-08 22:55:47 UTC
Knownasthatguy wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:
If you put up buy orders for minerals in out of the way systems you can get them for a much lower cost than their value at trade hubs. Build stuff from those minerals and sell, and you can make isk even if it looks like you are selling "under cost".



Is there an eve population density map that shows where most players are at (out of game that is)?


yes f10 , galaxy map and population in space regions or so on .

Opportunities multiply as they are seized.

Andres Talas
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#30 - 2012-12-09 00:40:24 UTC
Knownasthatguy wrote:
[

Nevryn,
Is there truely a larger consumer base for pvp goods than suppliers of said goods? Is the mere fact that someone can spend out of game cash for in game isk making this a suppliers market, because people can and will afford more "shinny ships"?


More players have more skill points letting them farm isk faster. These same players want to fly bigger and shinier ships.

These players do not want to mine trit.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#31 - 2012-12-10 01:08:12 UTC
One of the biggest demand drivers in the game that is pushing mineral prices up is supercap mfg.
The null sec guys don't want to talk about it, and CCP stopped publishing numbers on supercaps May 29th of this year.

But have a look at a Nyx BPO. You can make approx 1000 BC's for every Nyx out there.

I did an analysis and posted it weeks ago based on the May 29th snapshot of supercaps in the game.
I lowballed the mineral requirements, but based on the Jita sell prices that day, there was 134 Trillion in minerals tied up in the supercap hulls. That was just the hulls.
And that was 6 months ago.

Imagine how many more supercaps have been cranked out now that null is a blue fest and CSAA's are much safer than they wee 6 months ago.
Ave Kathrina
My Ass Is On Fire
#32 - 2012-12-10 02:23:33 UTC
Knownasthatguy wrote:


I have the sense to think that CCP want's you to buy more than one account, they want you to buy plexes/gtcs to keep up with the inflation of pvp, and there is no motive to change it.



Lol.... your 2 cents are not worth the cheap metal they are stamped on.
I've done some really stupid shit in this game.
The Chronophage
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2012-12-10 03:00:09 UTC
Knownasthatguy wrote:


I priced the build cost at roughly 57M
Jita market prices are 45M, how can this be?




Surely this is good news for the buyer? If someone wants to sell below "production" price, it's their loss.

Also, minerals used to be a lot cheaper when drone alloys existed. Nowadays, someone actually has to mine that shi.. Trit.
Indecisive Cid
The Scope
#34 - 2012-12-12 23:16:29 UTC
Skydell wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Skydell wrote:
As more and more stuff gets stealth nerfed to 40% reproc, it will only get worse.

Our 'emergent' game play 'emerges' when a new patch comes out.
While I do agree with you on manipulation, it's broader and doesn't really apply in the case of minerals. I'd speculate and say we are just now running out of drone region stocks.


? Stealth nerfed?



Do I really need to spell it out for you?

Reproc a cruiser, reproc a Barge.
They don't reproc at 90% of build. They reproc at 40% because they modified the build costs and kept reproc at old values to keep people from creating minerals. A short term fix with a long term nerf as a result.



so then what is the point of repoc,
IXD
Sisohiv
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2012-12-13 00:03:43 UTC
Indecisive Cid wrote:
Skydell wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Skydell wrote:
As more and more stuff gets stealth nerfed to 40% reproc, it will only get worse.

Our 'emergent' game play 'emerges' when a new patch comes out.
While I do agree with you on manipulation, it's broader and doesn't really apply in the case of minerals. I'd speculate and say we are just now running out of drone region stocks.


? Stealth nerfed?



Do I really need to spell it out for you?

Reproc a cruiser, reproc a Barge.
They don't reproc at 90% of build. They reproc at 40% because they modified the build costs and kept reproc at old values to keep people from creating minerals. A short term fix with a long term nerf as a result.



so then what is the point of repoc,


Just something else to feed the nerf bat.
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#36 - 2012-12-18 18:04:41 UTC
Toroup wrote:
So much missing information here (I particularly love the first reply about tears - which is less than worthless).

Mineral requirements for the Hurricane increased with the last patch so what everyone did was run a crap load of prepatch Hurricanes at the lower requirements and flooded the market. The same thing happened with mining barges last patch. I think that Retrievers are still selling for lower than the build value because of the backlog.

If you buy one now and reprocess it, it will reprocess at the original mineral value and not the higher amount - the missing materials are considered "extra" - this was done so that people couldn't make a ton of them prepatach and then make isk reprocessing them.

So, long answer to a short question, building new Hurricanes now will be a loss. The price will increase as the flooded market is bought out but there is no telling how long that will be.


I was not aware hurricanes were changed yet. Mining barges, Frigates and cruisers have been changed. Battlecruisers, i.e. hurricanes, and battleships are to be changed on the next pass.

By the time teiricide is done all ships should be reprocessing at about 40% of their build cost. This is not a huge issue as most ships are built to get blown up not reprocessed.
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#37 - 2012-12-18 19:16:00 UTC  |  Edited by: corestwo
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
One of the biggest demand drivers in the game that is pushing mineral prices up is supercap mfg.
The null sec guys don't want to talk about it, and CCP stopped publishing numbers on supercaps May 29th of this year.

But have a look at a Nyx BPO. You can make approx 1000 BC's for every Nyx out there.

I did an analysis and posted it weeks ago based on the May 29th snapshot of supercaps in the game.
I lowballed the mineral requirements, but based on the Jita sell prices that day, there was 134 Trillion in minerals tied up in the supercap hulls. That was just the hulls.
And that was 6 months ago.

Imagine how many more supercaps have been cranked out now that null is a blue fest and CSAA's are much safer than they wee 6 months ago.


Supercaps, even at their peak (around October or November of last year, just before the supercarrier nerfs) were never more than about 10% of production. The supercarrier nerf dropped production of them by 80%, and it's probably safe to assume that titans dropped by a similarly drastic amount.

Even at the peak (approx. 1 titan and two supercarriers a day) the combined consumption of tritanium by all supercap production was less than half of what's used for battleships and battlecruisers.

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo

MailDeadDrop
Archon Industries
#38 - 2012-12-19 14:36:13 UTC
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
I was not aware hurricanes were changed yet. Mining barges, Frigates and cruisers have been changed. Battlecruisers, i.e. hurricanes, and battleships are to be changed on the next pass.

To be more precisely correct: Tech 1 frigates and cruisers were changed. Tech 2 and faction variants of frigates and cruisers have yet to be touched, and to my knowledge there's no stated timeline for them (but I could easily be wrong). The tech 1 battlecruisers and battleships are (allegedly) up next, but I don't know that CCP has committed to including them in the very next release. Would the next release be prior to this year's 10-year anniversary Fanfest? If so, CCP may have some other special project(s) which could bump BC/BS changes to the following (Summer?) release.

corestwo wrote:
Even at the peak (approx. 1 titan and two supercarriers a day) the combined consumption of tritanium by all supercap production was less than half of what's used for battleships and battlecruisers.

If you're trying to soft peddle the amount of minerals consumed by supercapitals, saying that they amount to less than half of what's used by the largest consumer of minerals (BC/BS) is underwhelming. I wish the economy folks at CCP would publish a pie chart showing mineral consumption distribution. Or several pie charts, one per period for the last several quarters.

MDD
Toku Jiang
Jiang Laboratories and Discovery
#39 - 2012-12-19 14:59:12 UTC
Indecisive Cid wrote:



Do I really need to spell it out for you?

Reproc a cruiser, reproc a Barge.
They don't reproc at 90% of build. They reproc at 40% because they modified the build costs and kept reproc at old values to keep people from creating minerals. A short term fix with a long term nerf as a result.




This exactly. I'm still unclear on why they decided it was necessary to double the cost of a cruiser in the first place, it is only going to hurt inflation not help it, as cruiser prices just doubled and they are still no more useful than they were before the patch as I have yet to see a full T1 cruiser fleet PvPing or doing anything else useful. Not only that if you decide to build a cruiser you better be sure you can either sell it or use it, because your never getting your minerals back out of it. The only time I ever build cruisers is when I'm making T2 versions of the ship, I'm not sure I have even owned a T1 cruiser for use in over 3-4 years Shocked
Srioghal moDhream
Perkone
Caldari State
#40 - 2012-12-19 17:15:27 UTC
Knownasthatguy wrote:
Nevryn Takis wrote:
I think the OP is confused ..the title asks what is happening to mineral prices but he complains about the build costs of a particular ship..

Based on the trends on the last week mineral prices look like they're starting to come back down to where they were a month or so ago, no that the spike caused by people buying them like crazy to build cruisers pre-patch has burst.

Perhaps the OP should pay more attention to the market.... an analysis would show how many cruisers are now selling at below production cost, and as posted on another thread there are toons out there that have thousands of crusiers, so this situation is likely to remain well into 2014..


Nevryn,
Please excuse yourserlf from this conversation if all you have to offer are comments that don't push the conversation forward.
Back in 2007 and 2008, Trit had a trend line that floated around 2 - 3 isk/unit. Today it's almost double that. My forum post is to gain insight to a seemingly open markt pushed by game consumers (player base) yielding what seems to be a market trend that outpaces player income (earned thru the game, not GTCs) . Is there truely a larger consumer base for pvp goods than suppliers of said goods? Is the mere fact that someone can spend out of game cash for in game isk making this a suppliers market, because people can and will afford more "shinny ships"?


You should really do some research yourself before accosting others.

Trit did not increase from 2-3isk/unit because of demand or supply. Well not directly because of supply. ;)

You see Trit was kept artificially low as there were several items you could buy from NPC's that would reprocess into nothing but trit. So the cost of that item determined the ceiling for trit.
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