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CCP's future plans for the new AI, from FoxFour
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Wattkins
Sol Industries
#1 - 2012-12-06 22:37:35 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Hey guys, I have been a bit silent here and for that I apologize. An update on where we stand with the AI changes:


  • As it stands we are still going ahead with pushing the change to TQ.
  • While the change did not make it to the current version on Buckingham I have lowered the drone hate of the AI some more.
  • While we consider the fact that the AI will only shoot your first flight of drones (this is based on specific criteria such as sig radius) and not a second wave to be a defect, we are not publishing the fix with Retribution.
  • After Retribution we will be making a change to the AI so that they only consider damage being dealt to them as something to increase a targets threat. That way when you warp in to kill someone running an anomaly shooting the player does not make the NPC hate you.
  • Also after Retribution, and on the same topic as the previous point, we will be making it so that unless you do something like shoot the NPC or repair a player the NPC won't take your signature radius into account when evaluating targets. Even with the above change without this one frigates would still switch targets.


Now as I am sure many of you are wondering why we have been silent in this thread it is because we found a defect with NPC, nothing to do with the AI, that we decided needed to be fixed. After fixing it and realizing exactly how broken things were we decided to remove the fix until a later date when we can properly balance the content to account for this fix. We have spent the last few weeks attempting to fix the defect, figure out the risk of it, and figure out if we should delay it or the AI changes. In the end we decided to go ahead with the AI and delay the defect fix.

So yea, there is the update. I should hopefully have the lowered drone hate tested enough to put on Buckingham with the next update and will let you know when we do.


This is what we can expect around the corner from CCP. They are working on making the AI little less "sleeper" like. Just have patience.

link to the post
Akuma Tsukai
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#2 - 2012-12-06 23:45:38 UTC
Wattkins wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Hey guys, I have been a bit silent here and for that I apologize. An update on where we stand with the AI changes:


  • As it stands we are still going ahead with pushing the change to TQ.
  • While the change did not make it to the current version on Buckingham I have lowered the drone hate of the AI some more.
  • While we consider the fact that the AI will only shoot your first flight of drones (this is based on specific criteria such as sig radius) and not a second wave to be a defect, we are not publishing the fix with Retribution.
  • After Retribution we will be making a change to the AI so that they only consider damage being dealt to them as something to increase a targets threat. That way when you warp in to kill someone running an anomaly shooting the player does not make the NPC hate you.
  • Also after Retribution, and on the same topic as the previous point, we will be making it so that unless you do something like shoot the NPC or repair a player the NPC won't take your signature radius into account when evaluating targets. Even with the above change without this one frigates would still switch targets.


Now as I am sure many of you are wondering why we have been silent in this thread it is because we found a defect with NPC, nothing to do with the AI, that we decided needed to be fixed. After fixing it and realizing exactly how broken things were we decided to remove the fix until a later date when we can properly balance the content to account for this fix. We have spent the last few weeks attempting to fix the defect, figure out the risk of it, and figure out if we should delay it or the AI changes. In the end we decided to go ahead with the AI and delay the defect fix.

So yea, there is the update. I should hopefully have the lowered drone hate tested enough to put on Buckingham with the next update and will let you know when we do.


This is what we can expect around the corner from CCP. They are working on making the AI little less "sleeper" like. Just have patience.

link to the post


Have patiance? Hah. They have been told numerous times even before deployments that introducing new AI with the current drone UI is equivalent to eating your own ****. Didnt stop them, so now they still have to eat it.
Caldari Citizen20121206
Great Eastern
#3 - 2012-12-07 09:26:06 UTC
this means that the drone boats will be much easier to use, thats good but you still need at least 2 logi to be able to finish 6/10 - 10/10 high end ded sites. Either make agro completely managable (threat control) or make repairing not considered threat making them safe to use one. I have made numerous fits, and the most pimped, most tanked logi ships i could make with self repair and capable to repair others can tank only 560 dps (with at least a-type modules fitted), wich is like half the tank it needs in a site like a 6/10 or harder sites. So that makes you choose either training one of your alts to logi V, and bring dual logi or you need to bring at least 2-3 VERY VERY pimp fitted marauder or some kind of faction battleship. I dont beleive thats widening our options in choosing ships to PVE. I can see a very narrow and painful list of options even for the wallet and training time for the fellow capsuleers that would like to live and make proper money in 0.0 security space.


They changed my name, XtypeAssPenetration.
Turelus
Utassi Security
#4 - 2012-12-07 10:25:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Turelus
So if I am reading this right, they released a version of the AI they were not happy with into the live server with the idea of "we can fix it later"
Not caring that in the mean time they just ruined a lot of peoples gameplay each day?

I thought release now patch later was EAs thing...

Turelus CEO Utassi Security
Jame Jarl Retief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#5 - 2012-12-07 14:09:48 UTC
Turelus wrote:
So if I am reading this right, they released a version of the AI they were not happy with into the live server with the idea of "we can fix it later"
Not caring that in the mean time they just ruined a lot of peoples gameplay each day?

I though release now patch later was EAs thing...


Yep. And the post quoted is from nearly a month ago. So this was known over a month in advance. And still got pushed out regardless. Ironically, a little over a year ago, right after Incarna, they were swearing up and down that releasing broken, unfinished stuff wouldn't be happening any more.
Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
#6 - 2012-12-07 14:26:28 UTC
Turelus wrote:
So if I am reading this right, they released a version of the AI they were not happy with into the live server with the idea of "we can fix it later"
Not caring that in the mean time they just ruined a lot of peoples gameplay each day?

I though release now patch later was EAs thing...


Starting to be everyone's methode. Games are now being released in half-baked states so commonly, it's not even funny. Just got FarCry 3 the other day. I'm loving the game, but cannot for the life of me get over the rediculous fall damage. Drop from anything more than three inches, you loose half health. Three feet, you better have full health or you're gonna have to restart from last checkpoint. And their A.I. is, in a word, quirky. Sometimes, it seems okay, sometimes I wanna light my computer on fire...

"Tomahawks?"

"----in' A, right?"

"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."

"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."
Archa4 Badasaz
Vangazhi
#7 - 2012-12-07 14:32:42 UTC
From TestServer feedback:
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Just as a heads up guys you should be getting a post from one of us soon giving some details about what plans we have for the AI going forward. Sorry we have been so quiet, we have been trying to nail down a few things and figure out exactly what changes we want to make.


Post Link
Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries
VOID Intergalactic Forces
#8 - 2012-12-07 14:48:10 UTC
Yeah about this ai thing lol. I run newbies through missions with me to get them experience in fleets and isk, I had a new guy that wanted to try being a logi to see how that went, I went in to a mission to get full aggro and had him come in and do his logithing. As soon as the reps landed all targets went for him. These new changes mean I can no longer take newbies to fleet missions because even with full aggro their cruiser and all get shot up even though I'm the one who poses the most threat in my high end ships. Last expansion they killed fleet mining as every one wants to use retrievers, and now they kill fleet missions. Good job ccp and csm. Soon eve will be nothing but scammers and pvper that don't believe in ratting or mining to replace their ships

"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith
Wattkins
Sol Industries
#9 - 2012-12-08 05:46:25 UTC
Archa4 Badasaz wrote:
From TestServer feedback:
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Just as a heads up guys you should be getting a post from one of us soon giving some details about what plans we have for the AI going forward. Sorry we have been so quiet, we have been trying to nail down a few things and figure out exactly what changes we want to make.


Post Link


I'm guessing next week.
Cosmoes
Peraka
#10 - 2012-12-08 06:38:41 UTC
Agondray wrote:
Yeah about this ai thing lol. I run newbies through missions with me to get them experience in fleets and isk, I had a new guy that wanted to try being a logi to see how that went, I went in to a mission to get full aggro and had him come in and do his logithing. As soon as the reps landed all targets went for him. These new changes mean I can no longer take newbies to fleet missions because even with full aggro their cruiser and all get shot up even though I'm the one who poses the most threat in my high end ships. Last expansion they killed fleet mining as every one wants to use retrievers, and now they kill fleet missions. Good job ccp and csm. Soon eve will be nothing but scammers and pvper that don't believe in ratting or mining to replace their ships


I wouldn't try bringing newbies into missions anymore. Not after these changes.

If you did try it my only advice would be either dual logistics or try to do something to pull agro onto your tank ship. My current hope is NOS will fill this agro pulling need but I need to test it, things like size may play a role here which could cause extra problems if say you where tanking in an agro pulling abaddon and a newbie want's to come in a frig. He'll probably pull agro from frigs (cruisers?). Even if you killed frigs beforehand and just left him larger ships not sure how well a frig would be able to break a bs rat regen (some of the easier ones this wouldn't be a problem I guess).
Mund Richard
#11 - 2012-12-09 03:00:04 UTC
Cosmoes wrote:
Agondray wrote:
Yeah about this ai thing lol. I run newbies through missions with me to get them experience in fleets and isk, I had a new guy that wanted to try being a logi to see how that went, I went in to a mission to get full aggro and had him come in and do his logithing. As soon as the reps landed all targets went for him. These new changes mean I can no longer take newbies to fleet missions because even with full aggro their cruiser and all get shot up even though I'm the one who poses the most threat in my high end ships. Last expansion they killed fleet mining as every one wants to use retrievers, and now they kill fleet missions. Good job ccp and csm. Soon eve will be nothing but scammers and pvper that don't believe in ratting or mining to replace their ships


I wouldn't try bringing newbies into missions anymore. Not after these changes.

If you did try it my only advice would be either dual logistics or try to do something to pull agro onto your tank ship. My current hope is NOS will fill this agro pulling need but I need to test it, things like size may play a role here which could cause extra problems if say you where tanking in an agro pulling abaddon and a newbie want's to come in a frig. He'll probably pull agro from frigs (cruisers?). Even if you killed frigs beforehand and just left him larger ships not sure how well a frig would be able to break a bs rat regen (some of the easier ones this wouldn't be a problem I guess).

If that frig is a destroyer, it's doable.
Also doable in T2 frigs, but with T1 it's a patience game at best.

Confirming that a frig can pull agro from cruisers before doing ANYTHING even if most of the rats are dead, EWAR is active, and drones are out.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.