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DEV's any information about changes to the changes of AI?
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Anneliese Pollard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2012-12-06 21:04:14 UTC
Annunaki soldier wrote:
I am also a rattlesnake lover. But you cant talk for sure for everyone here. I give you an example. Doing 1 drone horde i have no prob. But the dps inside there is among the biggest you can encouter as high end anomalies. Rattlesnake tanks it easy. But sentries dont. And i always used a TP even before the ai change. The drones do get agro. And funny that i dont see em bleeding on shield first. Not all times. Some times rats change the target and that sentry ends up with armor damage with the first hit. Now imagine that on the long run. You will probably say carry armor reps drones. I am but guess what , every time you rep you dont have dps on the room. Please show me another weapon choice that has that . My point is that ? On all races of rats of course (because there are races that tracking disrupts, ecm etc but its your choice to be there for the LP store)


Out of curiosity what is your fit?
Annunaki soldier
Perkone
Caldari State
#22 - 2012-12-06 21:16:15 UTC
[Rattlesnake, New Setup 1]
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Shield Power Relay II
Shield Power Relay II
Shield Power Relay II

Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Target Painter II
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Cruise Missile
Drone Link Augmentor II
Drone Link Augmentor II

Large Core Defense Field Purger I
Large Core Defense Field Purger I
Large Core Defense Field Purger I


Garde II x5

This is the fastest isk/h that works for me for that ship. Rest drones ofc depending on situation

Ride hard, live with passion 
Lady Ayeipsia
BlueWaffe
#23 - 2012-12-06 21:33:16 UTC
Void 0 wrote:
Akuma Tsukai wrote:
Atossa Exior wrote:
If you paint/web/ECM any rats they hate you more than your drones. It also helps to kill frigs first since it's them that aggro drones more often than other rats.

As for room aggro, maybe CCP means for lvl 4's to be more group based that solo pimp bltized. The revamped T1 logis are looking better and better....

EWAR doesnt help with mission rats, they still insta switched to drones. Guess they ARE different from sleeper AI, good work CCP What?
I foresee glorious return of the raven as only viable PVE boat.


And how is that Raven going to deal with spawns of 3-4 frigs?


6 launcher hard points, 8 high slots... That leaves 2 slots for hybrid turrets to plink frigates with.
Anneliese Pollard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2012-12-06 21:38:45 UTC
Annunaki soldier wrote:
[Rattlesnake, New Setup 1]
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Shield Power Relay II
Shield Power Relay II
Shield Power Relay II

Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Target Painter II
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Cruise Missile
Drone Link Augmentor II
Drone Link Augmentor II

Large Core Defense Field Purger I
Large Core Defense Field Purger I
Large Core Defense Field Purger I


Garde II x5

This is the fastest isk/h that works for me for that ship. Rest drones ofc depending on situation


I use a similar build, but I don't use any LSEs. I use 3 hardeners (2 mission spec deadspace, 1 T2 invul) and T2 purgers.

Given the T2 purgers, I would suspect my sig radius is much higher than yours. Maybe that's a contributing factor?
Lord Malic
State War Academy
Caldari State
#25 - 2012-12-06 22:09:14 UTC
This whole new rat AI thing is an utter nightmare for missioning.. Really CCP?? Why would you make something like missioning (which isnt very much fun to begin with) a pain in the ass.. Your drones get blown up.. Youve taken out the use of a balenced small fleet. Tanks are useless now. You go into a room with a tank. some dps and support. and the rats kick the crap out of your dps and your support.. while at least the tank survives in the end... this is LAME.. Youve taken away the option of new players to help out on their friends missions because now instead of having a tank hold aggro.. the weaker players get smoked... you really need to look at this CCP this is one of the worst changes you have ever done and im sure the majority of the eve universe agrees that this is utter BS!X
Otrebla Utrigas
Iberians
#26 - 2012-12-06 22:49:43 UTC
Akuma Tsukai wrote:
Atossa Exior wrote:
If you paint/web/ECM any rats they hate you more than your drones. It also helps to kill frigs first since it's them that aggro drones more often than other rats.

As for room aggro, maybe CCP means for lvl 4's to be more group based that solo pimp bltized. The revamped T1 logis are looking better and better....

EWAR doesnt help with mission rats, they still insta switched to drones. Guess they ARE different from sleeper AI, good work CCP What?
I foresee glorious return of the raven as only viable PVE boat.

I have docked my CNR until further notice, after warping in "silence the informer" and get full room agro in the second room. I killed all the frigs after burning all my cap charges, with a deadspace booster.

I escaped in 25% armor.

Never more...

I'm sitting and watching, but the tengu seems the option here.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#27 - 2012-12-06 23:19:11 UTC
As far as NPC's ganking drones goes.

Flying a Kronos here, only deploying Hobs to counter the tackle frigates, I've found that sticking a Federation Web on my target before launching and engaging Drones has a tendancy to hold aggro over the Hobgoblins.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Vibramycin
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#28 - 2012-12-06 23:22:10 UTC
Yeah, I gotta say... When the AI change was announced I was all, "pfft, look at the whiners... Devs have tested, only lost a couple drones in a big missioning session. We'll just have to pay a little attention." Then I tried it, and couldn't even scoop warriors from 5km away before they got blapped. This is massively, massively harder on drones than the devs seem to have experienced; I don't know what the discrepancy is, but I lost more drones today than I have in the rest of my eve life.

This isn't to say, "oh woe is me missioning is broken forever!" It's just that based on the devs own statements, this appears to be unintended and they should be aware of how big of a change this ended up being. Though I will say I'm pretty much planning on switching my income source to something besides missioning--due to drone deaths and how powerful TDs are now.

I have indeed had a couple missions where I got basically no aggro on my drones and thought it was no big deal, but on others it was the sort of bloodbath described above. Same fit and everything. Blood raiders were OK to drones, sansha and mercs were bad, but my sample size is way too small to read much into it.
Aeriose
Ascendance
Goonswarm Federation
#29 - 2012-12-06 23:38:07 UTC
I have docked my CNR until further notice, after warping in "silence the informer" and get full room agro in the second room. I killed all the frigs after burning all my cap charges, with a deadspace booster.

I escaped in 25% armor.

Never more...

I'm sitting and watching, but the tengu seems the option here.[/quote]

You were lucky. I lost my CNR after Worlds Colide when the whole room agroed me and 10 frigates warpscrambled me. It was a 6 minute long fight to lower the DPS until my CAP was dead and so was I. Such a situation was managable in the past, but now ....
Every time I pulled my drones out to kill the frigates they were webbed and killed. They lived for less than 30 seconds. At this point, drones are usless for PvE.
Mund Richard
#30 - 2012-12-07 00:11:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
[conceited]
Vibramycin wrote:
Yeah, I gotta say... When the AI change was announced I was all, "pfft, look at the whiners... Devs have tested, only lost a couple drones in a big missioning session. We'll just have to pay a little attention." Then I tried it, and couldn't even scoop warriors from 5km away before they got blapped. This is massively, massively harder on drones than the devs seem to have experienced; I don't know what the discrepancy is, but I lost more drones today than I have in the rest of my eve life.


Aaand that is why going just once on the test servers every once-in-a-while can save you from unexpected changes.
Went there a months ago or so, posted on the forums for a while, after seeing all the "Pfft, whiners" posts and seeing how CCP is dead-set in the buisness tried to come up with a good counter setup that suits my gaming, and yay.

In fact, due to the AI, I'm having an easier time than ever!
Got tackled earlier by a SB
I knew he was coming, folk don't leave local and accidentally come back later.
Refit the ship, and waited...
...Bloody bastid managed to warp out with a flaming hull Cry
My tank? Over 90%

Oh, and haven't lost any drones yet.
[/conceited]

But seriously, try handling missions like you should sleeper AI, it works.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Spc One
The Chodak
Void Alliance
#31 - 2012-12-07 11:04:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Spc One
Anneliese Pollard wrote:
Void 0 wrote:
Let me guess. You are flying a Tengu :D?


No.

Passive Rattlesnake. sentries

Sentries are sentries, drones are drones.
So don't confuse them.
Why ?
Because raven and other bs's can only use 3 sentry drones or less.
Lilan Kahn
The Littlest Hobos
The Whale Hunters Association
#32 - 2012-12-07 13:55:05 UTC
Spc One wrote:
Anneliese Pollard wrote:
Void 0 wrote:
Let me guess. You are flying a Tengu :D?


No.

Passive Rattlesnake. sentries

Sentries are sentries, drones are drones.
So don't confuse them.
Why ?
Because raven and other bs's can only use 3 sentry drones or less.


by that logic heavy drones are heavy drones cause i cant fit one on my taranis your logic is medival at best
Archa4 Badasaz
Vangazhi
#33 - 2012-12-07 14:22:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Archa4 Badasaz
Lilan Kahn wrote:

by that logic heavy drones are heavy drones cause i cant fit one on my taranis your logic is medival at best


As I understood, he means, that usual BS's cannot use sentries to kill frigates effectively:
Quote:
1) Target all frigates
2) Snipe most, if not all with sentries
3) If frigs get up close and web me, pull sentries, release lights
4) When frigs are dead, pull lights, release sentreis
5) Cruisers, BCs, BSes, in that order


If only few drones make it to the range, where you can fight them effectively - then it's no problem. When you have something like 75m drone bay, and at least 50m should be light drones (5 to fight and 5 spares) then you cannot also fit enough sentries to kill them at range. You have 3 options:

1. While frigates are far, use light drones on them and hope you can pull them back as soon as they start to take damage;
2. Additionally to 1. use your weapons at them.
3. Wait till drones get up close and then use lights more safely.

But if the redeploy bug is fixed, and nothing else is done, and there is something like 10-15 frigates in a single pocket - even at close range you'll have problems with saving drones.

BTW, found this one the TestServer feedback:
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Just as a heads up guys you should be getting a post from one of us soon giving some details about what plans we have for the AI going forward. Sorry we have been so quiet, we have been trying to nail down a few things and figure out exactly what changes we want to make.


Post Link
Akuma Tsukai
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#34 - 2012-12-08 00:53:10 UTC
Mund Richard wrote:


But seriously, try handling missions like you should sleeper AI, it works.


I do. But shooting frigs with cruise missiles from my raven while my domis, geddons, megas and rattles are gathering dust in the hungar is wrong.
Lebens
Unshattered Allegience
#35 - 2012-12-08 01:19:33 UTC
I'm rather lucky that I own a navy scorp, high resists, dame damage as a standard raven and same drone bay, and 8 midslots.
I have found in most cases fitting a target painter causes the frigs to ignore my hammers while I let them loose on the frigs. a couple of cases though where even target painting has had no effect.

Each mission is different due to the composition of the individual rats, the lighter/cheaper frigate sized rats are set a bit differently than the mainjority of the frigs.

I myself do recommend runing a scorpion Navy issue, As iterated before, same DPS as a vanilla Raven, and resistance bonuses rather than a range bonus to missles, plus the 8 midslots don't hurt at all.

Overall I do agree that this was a mistake on CCP's part to change the AI like this and support that they need to fix it.
Jason13 Anzomi
#36 - 2012-12-08 03:09:13 UTC
Given my belief that no CCP change will happen anytime in the foreseeable future, I'm in the process of trying to sell off my drone boats and investing about 6 wks in training up a T3 gun boat (boat and weapons = long skill training).

The track record so far is that CCP makes a change which screws up things. Then they'll spend months trying to tinker with it until enough people stop complaining. Or they'll stick to their guns until they finally issue a public apology and do a quick rewrite. Either way, don't expect any real changes for months to come.

As a result, I'm doing a total redesign of my skills (flush the heavy drone skill training time down the toilet) and playstyle (I loved drones, but I'm having to learn to not use drones). And in the process I'm starting to question whether to pay for the subscriptions (two accounts) I have due later this week.

Finish another few weeks of T3+gun skill training while killing time mining? Or drop Eve for 6 months (saving money and annoyance) and come back after they've tinkered enough to make the drone boats usable again? That, is the question.
Akuma Tsukai
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#37 - 2012-12-08 10:53:01 UTC
Jason13 Anzomi wrote:
Given my belief that no CCP change will happen anytime in the foreseeable future, I'm in the process of trying to sell off my drone boats and investing about 6 wks in training up a T3 gun boat (boat and weapons = long skill training).


The major problem is, gun ships rely on drones as much as droneboats. Any form of EWAR disruption - and youre ****** (well unless ure in minnie space). Missiles are the only somewhat viable PVE choice atm, thx to FoF and track dis immunity. Or simply go WHoring, same monies for a less trouble lol Shocked WHs became easier and better than missions Lol
Funky Lazers
Funk Freakers
#38 - 2012-12-08 11:16:16 UTC
Akuma Tsukai wrote:
Jason13 Anzomi wrote:
Given my belief that no CCP change will happen anytime in the foreseeable future, I'm in the process of trying to sell off my drone boats and investing about 6 wks in training up a T3 gun boat (boat and weapons = long skill training).


The major problem is, gun ships rely on drones as much as droneboats. Any form of EWAR disruption - and youre ****** (well unless ure in minnie space). Missiles are the only somewhat viable PVE choice atm, thx to FoF and track dis immunity. Or simply go WHoring, same monies for a less trouble lol Shocked WHs became easier and better than missions Lol


I agree that missiles could be a good choice, but the worst part is missiles have the Worst performance on missions.
There are at least 6 reasons why Guns are much better then Missiles.

Anyways I think the best way to avoid lots of problems on missions is to move to Minnie space.
While Angels take less damage, move fast and do some nice damage at close range, you actually CAN kill them.

Whatever.
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#39 - 2012-12-08 11:45:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Carniflex
Aeriose wrote:
I have docked my CNR until further notice, after warping in "silence the informer" and get full room agro in the second room. I killed all the frigs after burning all my cap charges, with a deadspace booster.

I escaped in 25% armor.

Never more...

I'm sitting and watching, but the tengu seems the option here.

I lost my CNR after Worlds Colide when the whole room agroed me and 10 frigates warpscrambled me. It was a 6 minute long fight to lower the DPS until my CAP was dead and so was I. Such a situation was managable in the past, but now ....
Every time I pulled my drones out to kill the frigates they were webbed and killed. They lived for less than 30 seconds. At this point, drones are usless for PvE.


You were lucky.

I got a bit cocky and managed to lose Tengu last evening in angel-sansha worlds collide. Have not been running missions for ~3 months or so and just jumped in, first stage was as usual, second stage got full agro the second I got in and had 7 - 8 points of warp scram + webs on me. Would have been fine without the damn webs but ran out the shield a bit too fast with no speed and erverything on me. Managed to get most of the frigs down but all it takes is one point remaining with couple of webs and no shields left....

Well my own mistake ofc, thats how it happens if you get a bit too sure of your tank. After that did the second stage in spare Cerberus I had around and then switched to nighthawk for thew last stage - damn frigs sure do scram now a lot more than they did some months ago. Usually I used to get a point or two on me, now almost everyone capable of using point or web do so most of the time. Also - nighthawk can use 5 lights and damn frigs and cruisers are all over these the second you launch them - hell, I even had some BS to go after my drones in worlds collide, blocade and silence the informant.

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.
Mia Diva
Mia Diva Corp
#40 - 2012-12-08 12:09:14 UTC
Luckily I read this before I tried to do some missions in my Machariel..... To be honest by now I'm really fed up with CCP's policy of 'making changes just because of changes', and f'kin up something with EVERY new expansion they made, and throwing at us something, which is not changed but broken to this or that extend. Did they do any testing at all or what!? In my book what CCP is doing is sloppiness beyond comprehension, and they're doing this for years i.e. they simply don't learn. With such sloppiness must say I'm really surprised they're still afloat.

Expecting that now we all should -just because CCP f'ked it up again- to switch to missile boats is total idiotism and not seeing further than from your own nose. Not everyone have perfect missile skills, if at all! Not everyone flying Rattlesnakes or Tengus! Most mission runners are actually alts, mostly specialised in only one tech (guns, missiles etc). So what , should I now dump my Mach and start to train missile tech just because of CCP's incompetence to do things right? F'k that.
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