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[FIX REQ.] Margin Trading
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Extreme
Eye of God
#1 - 2012-11-29 08:39:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Extreme
Introduction:
Margin Trading allows you to not have all of the market escrow up front to make a buy order but rather only need to provide a fraction of it. At level 5 you only need 24% of the escrow to place an order.

The issue:

1. The scammer puts up a buy order of a certain type of Officer Mod @ 2 billion isk with a minimum quantity of 4 mods.
(Meanwhile he offers the mods on market at 999M isk each on sell order and have them offered in contracts, you may believe you can make a quick profit but that is not the case)
Due to the skill Margin Trading he only has to put up 24% of 8 billion isk on that buy order 1,92b.
While i may have had 2 officer mods in stock and purchased 2 of the officer mods offered on market at 999M isk each the buy order cannot be completed.

Now comes the annoying part:
As the scammer made sure his wallet does not cover the 8 billion in order to complete the buy order (and you purchased his officer mods way too expensive), the scammer makes a huge profit.

Second,
As the buy order could not be completed your officer mods will be placed on market @ 2 billion isk each, causing you having paid exhorbitant broker fees over 8 billion isk (!) while the actual mods are maybe all worth together just close to 1 billion isk.
5 minutes later you, ofcourse, take this sell order off market again.



May i suggest, in order to fix, that:

1. A message should appear first saying that the buy/sell order cannot be completed due to insufficient credits of the holder of the buy order and if i , instead, would like to put my items on market instead as a sell order.
This will avoid the exhorbitant broker fees.

2. Do we really need marging trading?
Now that scammers are abusing Marging Trading the skill has become absolete.
My suggestion is to remove this skill totally, or that only buy orders up to a maximum of 100M isk can make use of the discount of the buy order (24% at level 5) and that any buy order above 100M isk needs to be guaranteed with100% of the buy orders value.
Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#2 - 2012-11-29 12:21:19 UTC
May I start by saying how new and exciting this topic is. You are a true visionary among mortals to bring up this issue in your thread.

Extreme wrote:


May i suggest, in order to fix, that:

1. A message should appear first saying that the buy/sell order cannot be completed due to insufficient credits of the holder of the buy order and if i , instead, would like to put my items on market instead as a sell order.
This will avoid the exhorbitant broker fees.


I don't see a problem with this assuming the implementation isn't a problem. That's something that only CCP knows. You could also use simple view when using the market. This way you won't create your own orders, but only try to fullfill existing ones. With the advanced options open you'll always create a separate market order.

Extreme wrote:
2. Do we really need marging trading?
Now that scammers are abusing Marging Trading the skill has become absolete.
My suggestion is to remove this skill totally, or that only buy orders up to a maximum of 100M isk can make use of the discount of the buy order (24% at level 5) and that any buy order above 100M isk needs to be guaranteed with100% of the buy orders value.


It's one of the best skills a trader could have and is mainly used in legitimate trading. Any trader worth a dime will also spot a margin trade scam a mile away, so the scam itself is mainly a trap for the inexperienced and greedy. What I'm saying is, that it's a god damn usefull skill and you can pry it out of my cold dead hands. I certainly don't want to give it up in order to childproof the market from such an obvious scam.
Lykouleon
Noble Sentiments
Second Empire.
#3 - 2012-11-29 14:42:21 UTC
Lol

Lykouleon > CYNO ME CLOSER so I can hit them with my sword
Ronan Connor
#4 - 2012-11-29 19:31:19 UTC
Sorry to hear your loss man.

Unfortunately this "feature" is meant not only to do margin trading, but also to grief. CCP will not act against it and you will only get flamed for suggesting it, as you might have seen here.

Like in the real world you wont get a security deposit from those people.

For the future just stick to the saying "if somethings looks to good to be true, its not". Fly once to jita and you see x adverts in the chat for selling CNR via contract but its just a regular Raven.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#5 - 2012-11-29 20:07:18 UTC

Here's a duplicate Post for your duplicated thread.... .btw.. you should do some forum research, this has already been posted about 1000 times....


Extreme wrote:

May i suggest, in order to fix, that:

1. A message should appear first saying that the buy/sell order cannot be completed due to insufficient credits of the holder of the buy order and if i , instead, would like to put my items on market instead as a sell order.
This will avoid the exhorbitant broker fees.


I 100% support this option. I think it is extremely reasonable, and should be implemented ASAP.

Extreme wrote:

2. Do we really need marging trading?
Now that scammers are abusing Marging Trading the skill has become absolete.
My suggestion is to remove this skill totally, or that only buy orders up to a maximum of 100M isk can make use of the discount of buy order (24% at level 5) and that any buy order above 100M isk needs to be guaranteed with100% of the buy orders value.


I personally find the Margin Trading skill very useful. I am NOT a margin trade scammer, but am a buy/trader typically with billions in buy and sell orders. The ability of a scammer to scam with it is completely irrelevant to how I use the skill: I use the skill to maximize the buying potential of my isk. If you take this skill away, you will dramatically shift the isk-balance I maintain between Isk on Hand, Isk in goods being sold, and my isk "on credit". Essentially, Margin Trades are the only form of credit in the game. And when your credit bill is due, and you can't pay, you don't get the items you purchased with that credit. No one is harmed by the Margin Trade skill.....

Now, I also want you to consider something: How does a margin trade scammer make isk? The answer is, he doesn't make isk with his margin trade buy order (he loses money there!). Instead, he makes isk when you to purchase overpriced goods from him. Please consider this:

When you buy goods to resell, YOU are responsible for the RISKS in owning those goods. YOU, and only YOU risk not being able to sell those goods for a profit.... no-one forces you to buy goods. It is 100% your choice to spend your isk as you see fit, and you should be 100% responsible for that choice. In other words, if you buy goods above market value, and find you can't sell them for a profit, that's your own fault...

Now, you deserve to know that buy orders are not guaranteed. I support altering the tutorial to emphasize this point. Because when you understand this, then you should never, ever fall for a margin scam again. If you see a way to make a quick buck because you can quickly buy something cheap and resell it expensive, you would step back and go, "That buy order isn't guaranteed, so I might not be able to sell these items at that price". And then, since you're not stupid and moderately cautious, you will look into price histories, item movement rates, and, when you do so, margin scams are blatantly easy to spot.
De'Veldrin
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2012-11-30 17:14:16 UTC
Extreme wrote:
Introduction:
Margin Trading allows you to not have all of the market escrow up front to make a buy order but rather only need to provide a fraction of it. At level 5 you only need 24% of the escrow to place an order.

The issue:


May i suggest, in order to fix, that:



You can suggest whatever you like - such is the power of the Internet. You don't even have to ask for permission.

Snarkiness aside, no. There's no reason to fix this - people just need to learn how to stop and think for five damned minutes. Instead of rushing headlong into unexplored territory (large ISK value market trading) take 5 damned minutes to do a little research and realize - wow, something's fishy here.

The part I find odd about all this is the heavy duty traders don't seem to fall for this scam. It's the dabblers and the get rish without any work crowd that seem to get bitten. And frankly, that's just fine with me.

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.
Lee Anderson
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#7 - 2012-12-03 05:52:00 UTC
Best answer to this: "you mad bro?"
Answer: "yes"
Reply: "moar tears"



Regards,
Lee Anderson

Welcome to EVE were _fake _ISK and ships rule space! If you care about your "fake" killboard or ships, then please consult your doctor for medications.
Norrin Ellis
Doomheim
#8 - 2012-12-05 09:19:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Norrin Ellis
The best solution to this issue would be a margin call at the end of the trading day (downtime) when all margins are settled. If that leaves people with negative balances for putting up buy orders they couldn't afford, then they simply won't be trading until they grind back the ISK they owe the SCC for covering the trade.

This would make margin trading a risky proposition, but a lucrative one for legit speculators.

CEO, Venture Racing

Manager, EVE Online Hold'Em
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#9 - 2012-12-05 20:24:24 UTC
Norrin Ellis wrote:
The best solution to this issue would be a margin call at the end of the trading day (downtime) when all margins are settled. If that leaves people with negative balances for putting up buy orders they couldn't afford, then they simply won't be trading until they grind back the ISK they owe the SCC for covering the trade.

This would make margin trading a risky proposition, but a lucrative one for legit speculators.


No, this would open the up exploits to get free isk...

I setup an alt with 100b of stuff on a sell order, which, with margin trade 5 I need 24b in escrow to setup. I then sell my alt said item for 100b, putting 100b in my wallet. At the end of the day, I have 100b in my wallet, my alt has = -76 billion in his....

I forget about my alt, train up another margin trading 5 character... rinse and repeat... Soon, I'll be very, very wealthy, and the isk I earn from this scheme allows me to pay plex to activate new accounts and repeat ad infinitum...

Any mechanic that transfers isk from Player A to Player B in a manner that allows Player A to go into negative isk creates this dilemma, and will be abused as such.....
Cooyaw
State War Academy
Caldari State
#10 - 2013-01-11 02:57:43 UTC
Sorry man, but you are using the fact that you got scammed to try and get margin trading removed???

this is a useful skill that any station trader will use every day to broaden his market groups, some days certain modules move more than others, margin trading is a way to "spread your bets" across multiple market groups and increase your chances of obtaining goods and selling them. The fact that people are abusing a mechanic is no excuse to remove it.

There is hundreds of mechanics being exploited daily, and if you've played any other mmo, you know that you will never be rid of exploits, and you can avoid being a victim of this abuse by paying attention to what the hell you are doing with your wallet.

to quote CCP here "Eve is Real" and i doubt you'd sign a contract in real life without at least thinking about it or asking the contractor a few questions about it would you?

approach eve contracts the same way.
Annunaki soldier
Perkone
Caldari State
#11 - 2013-01-12 22:30:12 UTC
margin trading is a v ery needed skill to anyone that goes deep into marketing proffession. As for a fix , it still need the right plan to do a scam with it . So if you are taking by fool when you try to do some fast profit , then accept the fact that someone was more clever than you and you fall into his scam. Next time be more carefull or if you got what it takes do the same.

Ride hard, live with passion 
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2013-01-13 02:34:58 UTC
Just remove it. Don't got the isk? Don't trade.Roll
Zol Interbottom
Blimp Requisition Services
#13 - 2013-01-13 15:04:30 UTC
you sound like the guy who tried to petition me for him being an idiot

i mean, i didn't even scam him, he practically gave me the money without me saying anything

THINK BEFORE YOU ACT, IT COULD SAVE YOUR WALLET

i recommend you do

"If you're quitting for the 3rd time you clearly ain't quitting" - Chribba