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Balancing for ships but no love for the Hulk.

Author
Drizit
IzMine
#1 - 2012-12-05 16:21:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Drizit
The Mackinaw used to be the best ice mining ship in the game with the Hulk being the best ore miner. It seems that the Mackinaw is now the best all round which really leaves the Hulk redundant. A 35K ore hold compared to the Hulks paltry 8.5K and the bonuses to the mining lasers means it can mine an entire jet can at the same speed as the Hulk before it has to stop.

The only real saving grace for the Hulk now is a slightly better ability to tank damage which could maybe make it more useful in lowsec or 0.0 but since most operations in those areas have combat ships for protection, it's really not needed anyway.

I really expected the Hulk to get some love in this patch, at least give it a respectable ore hold size, 8.5K is just two full cycles of all its lasers and just under a third of a jet can for an Orca or Rorqual to pick up. Even if it can't mine any faster than a Mackinaw, at least let it hold the same amount of ore.

This really makes the bot miners in highsec happy though, it means they don't have to train for so long to get a mining barge that can strip every belt in a system 24/7.
Sakari Orisi
Doomheim
#2 - 2012-12-05 16:26:09 UTC
Drizit wrote:
The Mackinaw used to be the best ice mining ship in the game with the Hulk being the best ore miner. It seems that the Mackinaw is now the best all round which really leaves the Hulk redundant. A 35K ore hold compared to the Hulks paltry 8.5K and the bonuses to the mining lasers means it can mine an entire jet can at the same speed as the Hulk before it has to stop.

The only real saving grace for the Hulk now is a slightly better ability to tank damage which could maybe make it more useful in lowsec or 0.0 but since most operations in those areas have combat ships for protection, it's really not needed anyway.

I really expected the Hulk to get some love in this patch, at least give it a respectable ore hold size, 8.5K is just two full cycles of all its lasers and just under a third of a jet can for an Orca or Rorqual to pick up. Even if it can't mine any faster than a Mackinaw, at least let it hold the same amount of ore.

This really makes the bot miners in highsec happy though, it means they don't have to train for so long to get a mining barge that can strip every belt in a system 24/7.


Are you sure you know what you're saying ?
The mackinaw requires roughly the same amount of training as a hulk.
The hulk outmines the mackinaw, but has a smaller ore hold & little cargo to compensate.

The mackinaw is ment for solo mining, if you're solo mining, use a mackinaw.
The Hulk is ment for fleet supported mining, if you have an orca grabbing jetcans, you can use a hulk and will get a tad more ore for your trouble.
Drizit
IzMine
#3 - 2012-12-05 16:48:21 UTC
Sakari Orisi wrote:
Are you sure you know what you're saying ?
The mackinaw requires roughly the same amount of training as a hulk.
The hulk outmines the mackinaw, but has a smaller ore hold & little cargo to compensate.

The mackinaw is ment for solo mining, if you're solo mining, use a mackinaw.
The Hulk is ment for fleet supported mining, if you have an orca grabbing jetcans, you can use a hulk and will get a tad more ore for your trouble.

A marginal amount more from a Hulk but not really a great deal. With my maxed mining skills, it amounts to a difference of about 50 M3 per cycle per laser, is that really a big deal? You make it sound like it's closer to 300 or more per laser.

OK, so they changed the skills to Mining Barge level 5 for a Mackinaw, I normally fly a Hulk so I didn't notice. It still makes the Hulk redundant because the Mackinaw can still mine almost as much and with the larger hold, makes it more valuable. Check the market to see that, the cost of a hulk has plummeted from 400m a year ago to a little over 200m now while the Mackinaw has retained it's price of 200m.
Lord Calus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2012-12-05 17:04:33 UTC
Are you serious?

Really .... is this a serious poast and not a troll?

Hulk mines the most, but has the worst ore hold. This is on purpose.

Mack has the biggest ore hold now, this is on purpose.

The other one is the tankiest, this is on purpose.


Sorry you have to make choices and cannot have your cake and eat it too. Protip: no-one in nullsec bot mines, it isn't profitable enough.
Norris Packard
A Blessed Bean
Pandemic Horde
#5 - 2012-12-05 17:11:57 UTC
Drizit wrote:
Sakari Orisi wrote:
Are you sure you know what you're saying ?
The mackinaw requires roughly the same amount of training as a hulk.
The hulk outmines the mackinaw, but has a smaller ore hold & little cargo to compensate.

The mackinaw is ment for solo mining, if you're solo mining, use a mackinaw.
The Hulk is ment for fleet supported mining, if you have an orca grabbing jetcans, you can use a hulk and will get a tad more ore for your trouble.

A marginal amount more from a Hulk but not really a great deal. With my maxed mining skills, it amounts to a difference of about 50 M3 per cycle per laser, is that really a big deal? You make it sound like it's closer to 300 or more per laser.

OK, so they changed the skills to Mining Barge level 5 for a Mackinaw, I normally fly a Hulk so I didn't notice. It still makes the Hulk redundant because the Mackinaw can still mine almost as much and with the larger hold, makes it more valuable. Check the market to see that, the cost of a hulk has plummeted from 400m a year ago to a little over 200m now while the Mackinaw has retained it's price of 200m.


LOL

So you are telling us the market balanced out when they balanced the ships and teircided them? Wow that's amazing! Seems to be working as intended. Don't be lazy and fly a hulk, more ore; be lazy and fly a mackinaw, more cargo. That is called balance.
Alara IonStorm
#6 - 2012-12-05 17:19:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
They should have given the Mackinaw and Retty only 2 Lows and the Covetor and Retty should have 3 Mids. Put the Mack / Retty on the same plate as the Pro / Skiff when it comes to yields and let the Hulk / Covi get the most out of their bonuses.
Brego Tralowski
Tralowski Independent Traders.
#7 - 2012-12-05 17:27:27 UTC
All working as intended!!

Supplying Quality goods to the masses.

See 'T1 Module supplies' for all your T1 needs or T1.com in game chat.

Ginger Barbarella
#8 - 2012-12-05 19:07:00 UTC
Jeezus, I wondered when the whining would start... Roll

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac

Darenthul
Anstard Armory Inc.
#9 - 2012-12-05 19:10:49 UTC
The Hulk mines like 10-25% more overall doesn't it?

That also means it gets more out of Orcas than Macks, which was done on purpose..

Hulks are the best fleet Miner (by a large margin), Macks the best solo.

"I find mining to be an incredibly relaxing thing to do after work. It's like fishing without waking up early. Or cold. But the beer, the beer is the same." - arramdaywalker

Dorian Wylde
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#10 - 2012-12-05 19:21:12 UTC
Darenthul wrote:
The Hulk mines like 10-25% more overall doesn't it?

That also means it gets more out of Orcas than Macks, which was done on purpose..

Hulks are the best fleet Miner (by a large margin), Macks the best solo.



I recall someone did the math and worked out that the ships by themselves, the hulk has about 9% more yield.

Not really worth the paper thin tank, to me. Although if anyone actually knows of a corp with people willing to sit in belts and watch me mine in case rats spawn, I'll happily join. As it stands, if they aren't in the belt with you in a high volley ship, you're either going to need shield reps on the hulks, or the hulks need to warp out until the rats are dead.

Giving the mack and skiff comparable yield to the hulk, while giving the hulk zero tank and ore hold was a little silly. They need to remove the yield role bonus on the mack entirely, and knock the skiff down to 2 effective turrets. Then I might consider taking the risk. As it stands, I mine in a skiff, and make decent enough isk doing so.
Guthris
The Shard Restaurant
#11 - 2012-12-05 21:06:47 UTC
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
Jeezus, I wondered when the whining would start... Roll


You mean when it would continue
Big smile
Sakari Orisi
Doomheim
#12 - 2012-12-05 21:27:10 UTC
Dorian Wylde wrote:
Darenthul wrote:
The Hulk mines like 10-25% more overall doesn't it?

That also means it gets more out of Orcas than Macks, which was done on purpose..

Hulks are the best fleet Miner (by a large margin), Macks the best solo.



I recall someone did the math and worked out that the ships by themselves, the hulk has about 9% more yield.

Not really worth the paper thin tank, to me. Although if anyone actually knows of a corp with people willing to sit in belts and watch me mine in case rats spawn, I'll happily join. As it stands, if they aren't in the belt with you in a high volley ship, you're either going to need shield reps on the hulks, or the hulks need to warp out until the rats are dead.

Giving the mack and skiff comparable yield to the hulk, while giving the hulk zero tank and ore hold was a little silly. They need to remove the yield role bonus on the mack entirely, and knock the skiff down to 2 effective turrets. Then I might consider taking the risk. As it stands, I mine in a skiff, and make decent enough isk doing so.


I'll translate what you said: "I want all miners except the hulk to be useless again. Why would you want that ? CCP went down the only viable route: they made all T2 ships close in yield, with each having their strong point. THis is as it should be imo and shouldn't be touched
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings
#13 - 2012-12-05 21:30:28 UTC
Drizit wrote:

I really expected the Hulk to get some love in this patch, at least give it a respectable ore hold size, 8.5K is just two full cycles of all its lasers and just under a third of a jet can for an Orca or Rorqual to pick up. Even if it can't mine any faster than a Mackinaw, at least let it hold the same amount of ore.


Jesus Drizit, where have you been. They just Tiercided Mining barges in August. They very clearly explained why the ships got changed the way they did, and the roles they are now designed for. They are DONE and moving on. Why would you think they would do anything more at this point? Especially given they never even said a peep about any further changes.
Jack Miton
Perkone
Caldari State
#14 - 2012-12-05 21:31:47 UTC
mining barges recently got the biggest buff anything has ever gotten in eve (just about) and miner STILL complain.
do you really wonder why everyone else hates miners?

There is no Bob.

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Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2012-12-05 21:32:14 UTC
CCP overbuffed their tank :(
Dave stark
#16 - 2012-12-05 22:32:00 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Drizit wrote:

I really expected the Hulk to get some love in this patch, at least give it a respectable ore hold size, 8.5K is just two full cycles of all its lasers and just under a third of a jet can for an Orca or Rorqual to pick up. Even if it can't mine any faster than a Mackinaw, at least let it hold the same amount of ore.


Jesus Drizit, where have you been. They just Tiercided Mining barges in August. They very clearly explained why the ships got changed the way they did, and the roles they are now designed for. They are DONE and moving on. Why would you think they would do anything more at this point? Especially given they never even said a peep about any further changes.


they clearly explained what they wanted from mining ships, failed at delivering it, and are now stuck with the same situation they were in before, except the new "one size fits all" ship has more tank and cargo space than before.

why wouldn't they do more? the rebalance is clearly wide of the mark and didn't address any of the issues with having 2/3 exhumers and barges being totally redundant.
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings
#17 - 2012-12-05 22:35:46 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Drizit wrote:

I really expected the Hulk to get some love in this patch, at least give it a respectable ore hold size, 8.5K is just two full cycles of all its lasers and just under a third of a jet can for an Orca or Rorqual to pick up. Even if it can't mine any faster than a Mackinaw, at least let it hold the same amount of ore.


Jesus Drizit, where have you been. They just Tiercided Mining barges in August. They very clearly explained why the ships got changed the way they did, and the roles they are now designed for. They are DONE and moving on. Why would you think they would do anything more at this point? Especially given they never even said a peep about any further changes.


they clearly explained what they wanted from mining ships, failed at delivering it, and are now stuck with the same situation they were in before, except the new "one size fits all" ship has more tank and cargo space than before.

why wouldn't they do more? the rebalance is clearly wide of the mark and didn't address any of the issues with having 2/3 exhumers and barges being totally redundant.


They won't do more anytime soon because they have a whole slew of other ships to slog through before they are done with this rebalance. I highly doubt they will be going back to any of the ships already done until they finish.
Lord Calus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2012-12-05 23:18:18 UTC
So you are mad that one ship allows you to AFK mine, one ship allows you to have an incredibly beefy tank, and one ship that with proper support willl outmine all the others?

And you say everyone else is entitled, and can't understand the miner hate?


From the ship descriptions for gods sake!!

"The Hulk is a mining barge with superb mining yield."
"The Mackinaw is an exhumer with an extensive ore bay"
"The Skiff is an exhumer with exceptional defensive capabilities.

I fail to see how there is a lack of balance there, and how you feel slighted. Let me give you a little hint. The Hulk is NEVER going to get a huge ore bay. Not gonna happen. Sorry you have to jetcan mine in a hulk. Maybe the purpose of having to jetcan every 2 cycles was designed on purpose ... so you would have an orca on grid, or even a rorq?

Maybe there really is balance, but give an inch take a yard?

HTFU.


Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings
#19 - 2012-12-06 00:28:34 UTC
Lord Calus wrote:
So you are mad that one ship allows you to AFK mine, one ship allows you to have an incredibly beefy tank, and one ship that with proper support willl outmine all the others?

And you say everyone else is entitled, and can't understand the miner hate?


From the ship descriptions for gods sake!!

"The Hulk is a mining barge with superb mining yield."
"The Mackinaw is an exhumer with an extensive ore bay"
"The Skiff is an exhumer with exceptional defensive capabilities.

I fail to see how there is a lack of balance there, and how you feel slighted. Let me give you a little hint. The Hulk is NEVER going to get a huge ore bay. Not gonna happen. Sorry you have to jetcan mine in a hulk. Maybe the purpose of having to jetcan every 2 cycles was designed on purpose ... so you would have an orca on grid, or even a rorq?

Maybe there really is balance, but give an inch take a yard?

HTFU.




At least he hasn't asked for a refund for his T2 cargo rigs...yet.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#20 - 2012-12-06 17:55:17 UTC
Oh look, a devblog. And it has pictures.

It looks to my like these changes worked exactly as intended. Hulks are no longer the only option and Macks have taken on the expected role of afk mining. Pretty sure this isn't being iterated any time soon -- not because other ships are up first but rather because there's simply no need.
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