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[Winter] Attack Cruisers

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X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#961 - 2012-11-27 19:27:30 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Cyanerd wrote:
Are the navy faction equivilants of these ships being left unchanged? Caracal Navy Issue for example.
The navy versions aren't being changed in Retribution, but they will be changed.

when when!!!!!!! :)
My ENI wants to know when it can come out of the hangar again! Please, for my ENI, make it sooner rather than later. Big smile

What's the schedule? Tech 1 BC/BS, then Empire Faction, or T2, or both?
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#962 - 2012-11-30 14:45:09 UTC
I tried to fit up an armor Stabber...

I felt very good about having a versatile hull capable of being used in many kinds of fleets and not only shield.
I have perfect fitting skills and I had to use a single ACR rig to plug in a massive 1600mm RT plate but it felt worth it.

My only real regret is to be less than 1 (one!!) powergrid shot of being able to fit 4x dual 180mm T2 and 2x rocket launcher T2... I wasn't even trying to fit cruiser sized missile launchers... It was the smallest I could chose while still appearing to be effecient.

I would hope players with maxed out fitting skills would be capable of fitting an easily available cruiser like the Stabber with the smallest guns and frigate launchers without the need of implants (already used 1 rig slot for PG) It is already out of the question to use gunnery rigs and I wasn't even thinking about neutralizers or cap booster. Implants should be for people without maxed skills or people who want bigger weapons hehe

Here is the setup I tried:

Dc2, 1600mm RT plate, double EANM
Named MWD, double webifier, warp scrambler
4 x T2 dual 180mm + 2 x T2 Rocket launchers
1 x ACR rig + 2 x Trimark
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#963 - 2012-11-30 14:52:44 UTC
Pinky Denmark wrote:
I tried to fit up an armor Stabber...

I felt very good about having a versatile hull capable of being used in many kinds of fleets and not only shield.
I have perfect fitting skills and I had to use a single ACR rig to plug in a massive 1600mm RT plate but it felt worth it.

My only real regret is to be less than 1 (one!!) powergrid shot of being able to fit 4x dual 180mm T2 and 2x rocket launcher T2... I wasn't even trying to fit cruiser sized missile launchers... It was the smallest I could chose while still appearing to be effecient.

I would hope players with maxed out fitting skills would be capable of fitting an easily available cruiser like the Stabber with the smallest guns and frigate launchers without the need of implants (already used 1 rig slot for PG) It is already out of the question to use gunnery rigs and I wasn't even thinking about neutralizers or cap booster. Implants should be for people without maxed skills or people who want bigger weapons hehe

Here is the setup I tried:

Dc2, 1600mm RT plate, double EANM
Named MWD, double webifier, warp scrambler
4 x T2 dual 180mm + 2 x T2 Rocket launchers
1 x ACR rig + 2 x Trimark


trying to get a cheap stabber fleet issue eh... its bonus and lack of tank suggest its not a great idea.

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#964 - 2012-11-30 15:15:26 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Cyanerd wrote:
Are the navy faction equivilants of these ships being left unchanged? Caracal Navy Issue for example.
The navy versions aren't being changed in Retribution, but they will be changed.

when when!!!!!!! :)
My ENI wants to know when it can come out of the hangar again! Please, for my ENI, make it sooner rather than later. Big smile

What's the schedule? Tech 1 BC/BS, then Empire Faction, or T2, or both?

I would think after t2, because from weakest to strongest is T1, Navy, Pirate, T2. If they don't redo T2 then how would they know what to do for navy and pirate?

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Deerin
East Trading Co Ltd
#965 - 2012-11-30 15:17:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Deerin
You must be doing something wrong. It fits.

[Stabber, Armor Stabber]
Damage Control II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II

Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I

Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M
Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M
Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M
Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M
Rocket Launcher II, Mjolnir Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Mjolnir Rocket

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I

980 / 983.13 pg says updated EFT...am I missing something?

It sucks though....not enough dps at all...and no drones to boot :S
Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#966 - 2012-11-30 23:12:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Major Killz
Shopping List

1. Caracal x 8 (2 different setups)
2. Thorax x 4 (2 different setups)

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#967 - 2012-12-01 02:01:24 UTC
Deerin wrote:
You must be doing something wrong. It fits.
980 / 983.13 pg says updated EFT...am I missing something?
It sucks though....not enough dps at all...and no drones to boot :S


It might have been a small cap booster not fitting - in which case I guess it's okay... Can't login to test again atm...

And no it sits only at 300dps (compared to 400+) with a short engagement envelope - however it's a fast armor ship with a strong buffer.
I just wanted to see the Stabber potential as an armor ship and it's good at certain things. Just don't bring it up against other cruisers trying to brawl them... Trying to bring a Stabber down with frigs and destroyers will fast bring people back to reality.

IMO it should still have 3-4 light drones but hey lets see how it gets treated on TQ... Can take a while for people to find it's true potential :-)
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#968 - 2012-12-01 02:55:21 UTC
Pinky Denmark wrote:
Deerin wrote:
You must be doing something wrong. It fits.
980 / 983.13 pg says updated EFT...am I missing something?
It sucks though....not enough dps at all...and no drones to boot :S


It might have been a small cap booster not fitting - in which case I guess it's okay... Can't login to test again atm...

And no it sits only at 300dps (compared to 400+) with a short engagement envelope - however it's a fast armor ship with a strong buffer.
I just wanted to see the Stabber potential as an armor ship and it's good at certain things. Just don't bring it up against other cruisers trying to brawl them... Trying to bring a Stabber down with frigs and destroyers will fast bring people back to reality.

IMO it should still have 3-4 light drones but hey lets see how it gets treated on TQ... Can take a while for people to find it's true potential :-)



Its basically an oversized destroyer.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#969 - 2012-12-01 07:13:04 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Pinky Denmark wrote:
Deerin wrote:
You must be doing something wrong. It fits.
980 / 983.13 pg says updated EFT...am I missing something?
It sucks though....not enough dps at all...and no drones to boot :S


It might have been a small cap booster not fitting - in which case I guess it's okay... Can't login to test again atm...

And no it sits only at 300dps (compared to 400+) with a short engagement envelope - however it's a fast armor ship with a strong buffer.
I just wanted to see the Stabber potential as an armor ship and it's good at certain things. Just don't bring it up against other cruisers trying to brawl them... Trying to bring a Stabber down with frigs and destroyers will fast bring people back to reality.

IMO it should still have 3-4 light drones but hey lets see how it gets treated on TQ... Can take a while for people to find it's true potential :-)



Its basically an oversized destroyer.

That likely goes faster.
Deerin
East Trading Co Ltd
#970 - 2012-12-01 09:22:16 UTC
Goldensaver wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Pinky Denmark wrote:
Deerin wrote:
You must be doing something wrong. It fits.
980 / 983.13 pg says updated EFT...am I missing something?
It sucks though....not enough dps at all...and no drones to boot :S


It might have been a small cap booster not fitting - in which case I guess it's okay... Can't login to test again atm...

And no it sits only at 300dps (compared to 400+) with a short engagement envelope - however it's a fast armor ship with a strong buffer.
I just wanted to see the Stabber potential as an armor ship and it's good at certain things. Just don't bring it up against other cruisers trying to brawl them... Trying to bring a Stabber down with frigs and destroyers will fast bring people back to reality.

IMO it should still have 3-4 light drones but hey lets see how it gets treated on TQ... Can take a while for people to find it's true potential :-)



Its basically an oversized destroyer.

That likely goes faster.


Nope stabber is faster :)

Also try using a micro cap booster. It can also use 200's...but not navy 400's.

I'm kinda sad about stabber. The falloff bonus indicates a kiting use...but the dps is low so it might not work that well. I was trying to find AHAC style ab/sig tanking setups, but dps lacks again...so I'm at a loss about the new stabber. In the end I'll probably end up with a paper tank arty setup with dual damps or dual td's.
Vayn Baxtor
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#971 - 2012-12-01 10:16:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Vayn Baxtor
... which brings me back to replacing the ROF bonus with an AB bonus ° v ° ...
It's not like its going to deal groundbreaking DPS anyways... Leave that to Rupture.

Using tablet, typoes are common and I'm not going to fix them all.

Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#972 - 2012-12-01 13:13:00 UTC
Vayn Baxtor wrote:
... which brings me back to replacing the ROF bonus with an AB bonus ° v ° ...
It's not like its going to deal groundbreaking DPS anyways... Leave that to Rupture.



So... Reduce its already terrible dps for a ****** bonus that wont do you any good?


You NEED dps..

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#973 - 2012-12-01 15:24:09 UTC
It is important to have the Stabber in it's own role and not compete with others on dps.

300 dps (dual 180 + rocket launchers) doesn't sound like much, but it's enough to rip smaller ships apart fast and when used in fleets I wouldn't mind having a ship with 100-150 less dps than the rest when it is fast enough to move around scrambling and webbing targets. Mind you it still have a 1600mm plate in this config so it's not gonna insta-pop like some frigates.

That said I'd be in favor of giving it at least 3 light drones...
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#974 - 2012-12-01 17:13:39 UTC
Yup - I am 1 Powergrid from being able to fit a SMALL capacitor Booster II instead of a web...
Vayn Baxtor
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#975 - 2012-12-01 17:48:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Vayn Baxtor
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Vayn Baxtor wrote:
... which brings me back to replacing the ROF bonus with an AB bonus ° v ° ...
It's not like its going to deal groundbreaking DPS anyways... Leave that to Rupture.



So... Reduce its already terrible dps for a ****** bonus that wont do you any good?


You NEED dps..





-- Or any other bonus, but that ROF bonus is not helping much either if people say "it's not enough".
Nonetheless, my comment was following what Deevin said. AHAC + AB style. And there are uses and good with it; as long as the AB bonus is a decent one. And it is just a random demand. I know how to utilize AB, I agree though that that does not mean everybody else can see good in it...


Seriously though. Stabber has somewhere always been more of a "heavy tackler" -- heavy as in simply having more raw hitpoints than a random tackler frig. It can kill stuff too, but that was always somewhere limited, and everybody knows that the Rupture is a reliable powerhouse and workhorse.
Stabber Fleet Issue is clearly an alternative between the worlds for its interesting slot layout + the drones.


I'd be for DPS, but as everybody proved for tons of pages, you can stuff it full as you want, it is always apparently "not enough DPS". If it were so, then nobody would be talking about it.


It's not like CCP is going to give the Stabber specifically a higher ROF bonus just to justify our DPS demands. Everybody has a different taste to "when is it "enough dps"'.
I for one do not actually like to have every damn ship have drones, but if the Stabber were to have the decent dronebay/bandwidth, would that actually solve the problem them?

In other words, if the Stabber doesn't get Drones for instance, then there is no real point in having a dead-in-the-water ROF bonus if it is "terrible dps" already. Putting a different bonus in is certainly does more good than that one here.

I'm sure if CCP wanted all ships are supposed to do nice dps, then the Stabber would actually get both drones and 5th Turret as demanded, then we'd see it here, but we don't. So...

Stabber had always been more of a fast "anti-tackle" platform, hence the legit "oversized destroyer" comment.
I know AB-bonus is something not everybody likes, but knowing that missiles can be a bane, dual prop'ing with AB is indeed nice, the faster, the less dmg you chew in.

Nonetheless, a "tracking bonus" would most certainly do better good than that ROF bonus. It wouldn't make the Stabber Fleet Issue obsolete either as that ship has drones and 5th turret -- and that ship is going to get some tiericide love too whatever may be. Same goes for Vagabond.

edit; Pinky's comment also says a lot. Let's not forget that the Stabber shouldn't make destroyers obsolete either.

Using tablet, typoes are common and I'm not going to fix them all.

Sheynan
Lighting the blight
#976 - 2012-12-01 17:58:44 UTC
Being bad is not a role.
If the fit atleast did 300dps, it's closer to 200 actually, that is almost what the Thorax does just in drone damage.

Also you can fit an Exequror with a fit similar to the Stabber above, with a few extra overdrives in the lows.
And guess what...yes it does more damage, has more tank and is faster. And it's a ******* T1 logistic ship.
Adele Godel
The Spawning Pool
#977 - 2012-12-01 18:13:00 UTC
Deerin wrote:


Also try using a micro cap booster. It can also use 200's...but not navy 400's.


Spoken like a true eft warrior
Vayn Baxtor
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#978 - 2012-12-01 18:13:24 UTC
Well, there are ways to compensate, of course. It's all in the hands of CCP. Some feel that things are already a "done deal", unless we all scream loud enough, but I have doubts.

I for one just don't want what the german expression says "Nothing half, nothing whole" - which basically means in this case that it doesn't make sense to have a DPS specific bonus if it is not really even helping much. As said, terrible dps is terrible. Put something else there then.

Heard bitchy people also say, if you want dmg with Stabber, either buy a Rupture or stuff the Stabber full with 425mm, rigs, gyro and yourself with Imps - or gtfo.

I know well myself that having a Falloff bonus requires a decent AC/DPS bonus, but then again, it is already a great aspect. It also means that Ambit/Falloff rigs will give us even more range.

Using tablet, typoes are common and I'm not going to fix them all.

Meldorn Vaash
State War Academy
Caldari State
#979 - 2012-12-02 02:26:56 UTC
Vayn Baxtor wrote:
Well, there are ways to compensate, of course. It's all in the hands of CCP. Some feel that things are already a "done deal", unless we all scream loud enough, but I have doubts.

I for one just don't want what the german expression says "Nothing half, nothing whole" - which basically means in this case that it doesn't make sense to have a DPS specific bonus if it is not really even helping much. As said, terrible dps is terrible. Put something else there then.

Heard bitchy people also say, if you want dmg with Stabber, either buy a Rupture or stuff the Stabber full with 425mm, rigs, gyro and yourself with Imps - or gtfo.

I know well myself that having a Falloff bonus requires a decent AC/DPS bonus, but then again, it is already a great aspect. It also means that Ambit/Falloff rigs will give us even more range.


Remember though, with ACs you're fighting in falloff. Your full damage potential is already dropping like a rock the further from the target you get. At the edge of your falloff range you're only doing 1/3 to 1/2 the DPS. Short of giving an insane amount of falloff bonus to compensate for DPS loss, the Stabber will still be iffy as a kiter and marginal as a brawler. A 5th turret may help. Swapping the ROF bonus for a Damage bonus may help. Even though I really really like the fast ROF, the volley damage just isn't there at range.

I still want drones for the Stabber P

While I’m complaining, if they decided to go with 5 turrets I would suggest dropping that last high slot and add a mid slot, let it the Stabber be shield tanked. The Rupture is geared more towards armor anyways.
"Irony can be pretty ironic sometimes."
Vayn Baxtor
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#980 - 2012-12-02 06:11:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Vayn Baxtor
I know, hence the "falloff" term. DPS goes down the slop as one reaches the edge. Big question is if the Stabber was supposed to get a decent DPS in the first place or not. It doesn't look like it was suppose to.

I know people won't like what I will be saying here either, but let's not forget artillery could be an interesting subject in terms of Volley. Yes, Rupture does this better too, but let's just keep in mind of a cruiser that can come and go thanks to speed. The actual volley may be better than the already-craptastic-dps. One could use close range ammo and still trust the extra falloff range. It is not a solution, nor it is that better, but it will be a fun attribute to see. At least we're not just narrowed down to the same old Stabbabond fit.

Nonetheless. DPS is not everything, and when it is that lacking then bonuses should empower other fields.

Stabber is T1 so it can't be doing everything extraordinarily well. As much as I'd love it doing that much of an acceptable base DPS, it doesn't look like it is going to happen.

I will agree though that ROF is acceptable for being an Anti-Frigate platform -- but then again, that job seems to be now for the new tiericide'd Bellicose...


If there would be for a fifth turret, then yes, leaving ROF bonus would be fine. Having that highslot be removed for an extra med sounds plausible. Not sure how this would fit in to balance but it would still allow versatility.

Of course, there were hopes for a "better" Stabber than it was pre-tiericide, but in the end, it is an attack cruiser following whatever means of getting in and out fast.

Thing is also that it has been moved to this new aspect of Attack Cruiser, and not a Combat Cruiser (Rupture), so I'm guessing that is what causing the headaches with DPS. Although, I must say that a swap from ROF to DAMAGE would apply more uses for an artillery platform, but I am sure that people want to have a mini-Vagabond with ACs, not Arty.

Although I was against it at first, drones sound and are great, after all. Probably the only thing that would help without hurting other ships too much as drones are a standard.

Using tablet, typoes are common and I'm not going to fix them all.