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The Future of W-space?

Author
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2012-11-29 17:12:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
What do you think the future holds for wormhole space?

I think that when/if CCP improve player owned structures and their security/access settings, recruitment will be less restrictive and corporations in w-space will grow... Maybe to the extent that small gang pvp becomes a rarity.

As new groups/corps move into w-space, the more experienced players will probably move to higher class wormholes and after much fighting, we could see massive coalitions forming that control the majority of C5’s and C6’s. This could result in an OTEC situation with the 3 digit gases, which would give these coalitions massive power.

Jump forward a year or so and maybe CCP decide that they want the null and WH powers to fight each other, so the release an expansion that gives wormholers the ability to jump to specific null sec system.

So yeah, day dream over... Where do you think things are heading?

Edit: Some maybe gas will not be what gives this group power but you see where i'm going...
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#2 - 2012-11-29 17:44:28 UTC
Mass limits will reduce the potential for blobbing in straight up fights to a degree and even with increased recruitment no one rushes to do POS bashes in a WH :P (and in the long term its generally counter-productive - 9/10 POS bashes in WH space are down to either someone smacktalking/generally being a jerk or 100% carebear corps that duck out of every fight even when they have the numbers online and active to feasibly fight).

It might mean C5 space becomes busier but afaik theres quite a lot of room there to take more people in - off the top of my head only something like 1 in 6 C5 system is properly "settled" - will make it a lot harder to run sites uninterrupted but thats only really a problem for 100% carebears.

I don't really see CCP giving wormhole space that much attention for the foreseable future beyond things like POS updates as far as the core mechanics go its one of the least broken parts of eve.
Aducat Ragnarson
Blootered Bastards
#3 - 2012-11-29 17:44:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Aducat Ragnarson
The Pos changes will result in stationfights and stationcamping and with the reduction of every major ISK farm w-space is sure be nerfed. also T3s will be nerfed into oblivion.

This will make w-space a lot more like 0.0 but with harder logistics and less income, which in turn will drive away the old wormhole players and remove any incentive for newer players to join wormholes instead of going the 0.0 way.

In the end we will be left with a largely empty w-space with the odd solitary player confined in C4-C4 holes who bitches about "the olden days" when "everything was so much better".

Every kind of PvP will die and it will be even worse than large OTEC coalitions.


EDIT: Ok, so far we have:

-Everything will be ruined by giant coalitions
-Everything will stay exactly the same
-Everything will be ruined by emptiness
Casirio
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2012-11-29 17:48:48 UTC
wow you guys are pretty grim What? im gonna still be blowing **** up!
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#5 - 2012-11-29 17:56:29 UTC
Aducat Ragnarson wrote:
The Pos changes will result in stationfights and stationcamping and with the reduction of every major ISK farm w-space is sure be nerfed. also T3s will be nerfed into oblivion.


Forgot about this - if these changes come into play its gonna gut WH space rather than enhance it - almost all the casual and smaller corps will leave if theres the potential for being camped into their own station on a daily basis.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#6 - 2012-11-29 19:38:28 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
What do you think the future holds for wormhole space?

I think that when/if CCP improve player owned structures and their security/access settings, recruitment will be less restrictive and corporations in w-space will grow... Maybe to the extent that small gang pvp becomes a rarity.

As new groups/corps move into w-space, the more experienced players will probably move to higher class wormholes and after much fighting, we could see massive coalitions forming that control the majority of C5’s and C6’s. This could result in an OTEC situation with the 3 digit gases, which would give these coalitions massive power.

Jump forward a year or so and maybe CCP decide that they want the null and WH powers to fight each other, so the release an expansion that gives wormholers the ability to jump to specific null sec system.

So yeah, day dream over... Where do you think things are heading?

i do not think your analysis is accurate. for one thing, small-ish gang pvp is enforced by mass limitations. you can only get so many caps and support into your static, even if it's a c6->c6. which leads us to the second point.

massive coalitions are only useful when you need to cover vulnerability. this will not be the case, as more and more wormhole systems will amass enough firepower inside to easily defend against anything that could come out of an incoming WH. to seriously attack a reinforced system, you would have to rotate your static till you get lucky several times. otherwise, you just won't be able to bring enough hulls inside to keep up the attack on the enemy POSes. the only dangers for highly reinforced systems will be sabotage and member burnout.

as for gas monopoly: i do not have the exact numbers but my guess is that the booster market is much much smaller than the T2 market. therefore it is not likely that the big entities (even if they would arise) would bother with a cartel agreement.

my own predictions depend very much on the fate of T3s. personally, i do not believe that T3s will be nerfed significantly. the versatility argument that T3 opponents usually bring does not hold, except in very few situations where people do not have a semisafe station or POS to hold a few significantly cheaper specialized ships. therefore, T3s need to stay what they are now: most powerful in their class/role but also most expensive.
if CCP agrees with this assessment, nothing much will change except for what i described above. the major powers will harden their grip on their home systems and keep harassing each other and smaller powers in lower-class holes.
if by some unfortunate stroke of luck, wormhole life becomes less fortunate, beit by a nerd to T3s or a direct nerf to blue sleeper loot, w-space will become less and less populated until a new equilibrium is found where more carebears move in for mining and PI, whereas the PVP corp count goes slightly down. most PVPers will remain though, as someone will have to collect the tears of said carebears.

I should buy an Ishtar.

Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#7 - 2012-11-29 19:49:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
Daniel Plain wrote:

massive coalitions are only useful when you need to cover vulnerability. this will not be the case, as more and more wormhole systems will amass enough firepower inside to easily defend against anything that could come out of an incoming WH. to seriously attack a reinforced system, you would have to rotate your static till you get lucky several times. otherwise, you just won't be able to bring enough hulls inside to keep up the attack on the enemy POSes. the only dangers for highly reinforced systems will be sabotage and member burnout.


Yeah while growing alliances and coalitions would allow them to project more power the mass limits will still help to balance it out - the alliance I'm in has attacked other entities with built up systems by exploiting holes in their active periods to sneak ships in over several days but with more numbers active inside those holes the chances of getting stuff in undetected is much slimmer and more capable of dealing with the relatively small number you can get in at any one time.
Gnaw LF
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#8 - 2012-11-29 20:35:30 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
What do you think the future holds for wormhole space?

I think that when/if CCP improve player owned structures and their security/access settings, recruitment will be less restrictive and corporations in w-space will grow... Maybe to the extent that small gang pvp becomes a rarity.

As new groups/corps move into w-space, the more experienced players will probably move to higher class wormholes and after much fighting, we could see massive coalitions forming that control the majority of C5’s and C6’s. This could result in an OTEC situation with the 3 digit gases, which would give these coalitions massive power.

Jump forward a year or so and maybe CCP decide that they want the null and WH powers to fight each other, so the release an expansion that gives wormholers the ability to jump to specific null sec system.

So yeah, day dream over... Where do you think things are heading?



Ok the way I see it you have limited experience of w-space. None of the things you listed WILL EVER HAPPEN. I dont know what sort of coalition you need in order to control 500+ C5s and 100+ C6s. Also, who would be willing to live in all the horrible C5s, the ones that open into lower class w-space or, god forbid, c4s or the ones that have Black Hole effect. Ugh.

As far as I am aware all the large / notable / successful w-space entities have their POS security setup pretty well. The limited amount of recruits you see coming into w-space is not because we are hesitant to recruit potential thieves, its because we are trying to recruit active and experienced players. I am of the STRONG opinion that we do not need POS changes except a few minor tweaks such as, swapping out subsystems on Tech 3 ships, ability to repackage in CHAs and the ability to fit out ships through the Fitting menu when using our SMA / CHA combo.
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2012-11-29 20:44:58 UTC
Honestly it is so early I find it hard to figure out what to think.

The only thing we seem to know with a fair amount of certainty is that the POS shield will go. It has seemed pretty clear from a developers standpoint that it causes too many technical issues.

What we don't know is pretty much everything else.

For one, I'm not certain we will have constant station camps. For one thing, we get camps in HS and LS and NPC 0.0 now, but that is largely because the campers only have to deal with anemic NPC station guns. I don't know about SOV outposts so I wont say.

So this will depend on defenses. If the new POS system is more defendable, it may make POS gunners more viable, and easier to thwart a station camp. How much fun would it be to have some T3's camping your pos. You log in your gunners. without local they won't necessarily see them log in. And without local even if they have you on a watchlist they won't know if you are a pos gunner. Then blammo!.


I'm sure i could think of other examples, but you get the idea. Either way I don't think it is a Sky is falling situation just yet.
Acac Sunflyier
The Ascended Academy
#10 - 2012-11-29 21:32:10 UTC
Honestly, I don't foresee wormhole space changing all that much. Only changes to wormhole space will be features that affect eve as a whole, such as poses, rather than wormholes specifically. Maybe the music change will give wormholes their own specific music set.
District Jr
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#11 - 2012-11-30 00:50:27 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:

as for gas monopoly: i do not have the exact numbers but my guess is that the booster market is much much smaller than the T2 market. therefore it is not likely that the big entities (even if they would arise) would bother with a cartel agreement.

I think your mistaking WH gas with K-space gas. WH gas is only used in T3 industry; no other type of gas sites will spawn. If you control the C320 and C540 extraction (which is impossible with the number of C5s and C6s) then you control T3 prices.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2012-11-30 01:09:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Gnaw LF wrote:

Ok the way I see it you have limited experience of w-space. None of the things you listed WILL EVER HAPPEN. I dont know what sort of coalition you need in order to control 500+ C5s and 100+ C6s. Also, who would be willing to live in all the horrible C5s, the ones that open into lower class w-space or, god forbid, c4s or the ones that have Black Hole effect. Ugh.

As far as I am aware all the large / notable / successful w-space entities have their POS security setup pretty well. The limited amount of recruits you see coming into w-space is not because we are hesitant to recruit potential thieves, its because we are trying to recruit active and experienced players. I am of the STRONG opinion that we do not need POS changes except a few minor tweaks such as, swapping out subsystems on Tech 3 ships, ability to repackage in CHAs and the ability to fit out ships through the Fitting menu when using our SMA / CHA combo.


I know enough to feel comfortable talking about it but admittedly i have never lived in a C5 or C6 wormhole, nor have i done much in the way of T3 manufacture. Are you saying that if several of the large entities grouped together that they would NEVER be able to affect/manipulate the T3 market?

Like it or not the POS system is being reworked, probably in a way that will have a massively affect on wormhole pvp tactics. It's nice that you recruit experienced players but not every one thinks like you or cares about good fights... But until ccp give us specifics, it's anyone guess how things will turn out.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#13 - 2012-11-30 03:15:45 UTC
tbh, i cannot imagine that the 'new' poses will behave much differently than the current ones, at least not with regard to sieges. you will probably still be able to deploy defenses, turrets and ECM which means you will be able to keep small groups of attackers at bay. and as i stated earlier, there is a glass ceiling on how big the attacking group can get because of mass limitations, so there is no need to form large coalitions.

I should buy an Ishtar.

Oxandrolone
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2012-11-30 03:59:10 UTC
Huge coalitions already exist in high class wormholes.

In the future large alliances will continue to fortify their citadel wormholes with more and more capitals :)
Chitsa Jason
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#15 - 2012-11-30 10:36:01 UTC
I think future of W-space depends on the way the new POS system is going to be implemented.

The way I see it at the moment is:

If it is going to be ministation with no ability to collect information from Dscan then most of thrill of wspace will be gone. There will be occasional POS (cough station) camps. Some capital or tengu ganks but thats about it.

Small/medium fleet fights will be mostly gone due to inability to collect intel and react or counteract.

W-space corporations will adapt and start roaming null and low sec more. They will use their wspace systems as base of ops for isk making and ship storage.

Burn the land and boil the sea You can't take the sky from me

Efraya
V0LTA
OnlyFleets.
#16 - 2012-11-30 11:21:59 UTC
Chitsa Jason wrote:

If it is going to be ministation with no ability to collect information from Dscan then most of thrill of wspace will be gone. There will be occasional POS (cough station) camps. Some capital or tengu ganks but thats about it.

Small/medium fleet fights will be mostly gone due to inability to collect intel and react or counteract.


It's going to be hilariously **** if this is going to be what happens...

[b][center]WSpace; Dead space.[/center] [center]Lady Spank for forum mod[/center][/b]

TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#17 - 2012-11-30 12:02:18 UTC
Efraya wrote:
Chitsa Jason wrote:

If it is going to be ministation with no ability to collect information from Dscan then most of thrill of wspace will be gone. There will be occasional POS (cough station) camps. Some capital or tengu ganks but thats about it.

Small/medium fleet fights will be mostly gone due to inability to collect intel and react or counteract.


It's going to be hilariously **** if this is going to be what happens...


dont worry to liven it up they'll allow mass-control on wormholes so we can bring in supers and keep holes open for seven days
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2012-11-30 12:14:11 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
tbh, i cannot imagine that the 'new' poses will behave much differently than the current ones, at least not with regard to sieges. you will probably still be able to deploy defenses, turrets and ECM which means you will be able to keep small groups of attackers at bay. and as i stated earlier, there is a glass ceiling on how big the attacking group can get because of mass limitations, so there is no need to form large coalitions.


If CCP remove force fields it will mean that pos bashing can be done with close range, high dps setups. If a 20-30 T3 fleet can come into your system for a fight and then bash your pos with the same fleet, this drastically change the way we operate in w-space.

Mass limits are not as restrictive as you make out. All a group has to do is amass a large enough force to control the wormhole entrance, and then they can bring in what they want.
Aducat Ragnarson
Blootered Bastards
#19 - 2012-11-30 13:46:32 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
...

If CCP remove force fields it will mean that pos bashing can be done with close range, high dps setups. If a 20-30 T3 fleet can come into your system for a fight and then bash your pos with the same fleet, this drastically change the way we operate in w-space.
...


In that case, we might see short range high dps deathstars rise in use. No Pos can really be defended against a fleet that sets out to destroy that Pos specifically, so it might become more usefull to have the Pos defended against regular roaming gangs instead.
Gnaw LF
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#20 - 2012-11-30 16:48:50 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:


I know enough to feel comfortable talking about it but admittedly i have never lived in a C5 or C6 wormhole, nor have i done much in the way of T3 manufacture. Are you saying that if several of the large entities grouped together that they would NEVER be able to affect/manipulate the T3 market?

Like it or not the POS system is being reworked, probably in a way that will have a massively affect on wormhole pvp tactics. It's nice that you recruit experienced players but not every one thinks like you or cares about good fights... But until ccp give us specifics, it's anyone guess how things will turn out.



Correct, even if you find a coalition that can control most of C5s, they will not be able to control them 24/7 and someone sooner of later will sneak in and mine the gas. That is considering that this giant coalition will be able to COMPLETELY control their own ranks, even pilots in big alliances need ISK and need to replace their ships, trying to hold them from mining gas is going to be difficult and cause drama. In the end the largest entities in w-space do think mostly like I do and they do actively seek good fights, that is why you will never see a mega coalition, oh there might be a temporary one to evict some null sec alliances but after the deed is done we always go back to shooting each other.
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