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PI Question, I'm SO sorry
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Van Kuzco
Perkone
Caldari State
#1 - 2012-11-26 02:59:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Van Kuzco
So I've spent the last few days browsing threads and I have a paper full of notes and scribbles of calculations and my head is about to explode. I apologize that my math and/or logic skills have failed me and I'm hoping someone can help me.

So I'm going to be making Nano-Factories in a WH. I have already planned out what worlds I will be settling.

I will be using extractor planets for P0->P1 and then factory planets for P1->P4.
I'm also using 2 accounts and 6 characters.

I'm trying to figure out how much of each resource I need to extract to keep a factory planet(s) producing 1 Nano-Factory per hour.

CC IV and PC IV
My factory planet will have 1 HTPP, 4 P3 Advanced Factories, 16 P2 Advanced Factories, 1 launchpad, and 2 storage facilities.

So if I calculated things out right I will need 64 Basic P1 Factories on my extractor planets to keep everything running. And to power each basic factory I will want to extract 6000 raw P0 units per hour.

So 64 x 6000 = 384000 units of P0 per hour of all raw materials or 48000 P0 per resource per hour? That seems too much for 1 nano-factory per hour?

I'm pretty sure I'm not factoring in something really important. Where did I go wrong?
Styth spiting
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2012-11-26 08:24:04 UTC
Nano-Factory
Reactive Metals (40) Base Metals (3,000)

Industrial Explosives (3)
Fertilizer (5)
Bacteria (40) Micro Organisms (3,000)
Proteins (40) Complex Organisms (3,000)
Polytextiles (5)
Biofuels (40) Carbon Compounds (3,000)
Industrial Fibers (40) Autotrophs (3,000)

Ukomi Super Conductors (3)
Synthetic Oil (5)
Electrolytes (40) Ionic Solutions (3,000)
Oxygen (40) Noble Gas (3,000)
Super Conductors (5)
Plasmoids (40) Suspended Plasma (3,000)
Water (40) Aqueous Liquids (3,000)

You need 6 of each P3 of each 1 P4, which means 2 runs of each P3. You also need 2 runs of each P2 for each P3, so 4 runs of each P2.

So you will need the following P1 materials

Reactive Metals (40) Base Metals (3,000)

Bacteria (160) Micro Organisms (12,000)
Proteins (160) Complex Organisms (12,000)
Biofuels (160) Carbon Compounds (12,000)
Industrial Fibers (160) Autotrophs (12,000)

Electrolytes (160) Ionic Solutions (12,000)
Oxygen (160) Noble Gas (12,000)
Plasmoids (160) Suspended Plasma (12,000)
Water (160) Aqueous Liquids (12,000)

For a total of 1320 P1 materials, or 96,000 P0.

Making 1 P4 every hour, for a total of 22 P4 per day (you lose 2 hours to the factories waiting for mats) you will need to make 29,040 P1 materials or 2,112,000 P0 per day.


To give you an idea if you have 5 characters, with 5 planets each running 24 hour cycles (so you extract materials every 15 minutes) you will need to extract at minimum 3,520 P0 materials, which you would have to try very hard to extract this small amount of material.

On average you should shoot for 30,000 P0 material per planet. This comes out to about 36,000,000 P0 per 24 hour period


Personally I run 9 factory planets making all P4 materials with 40 material planets and I am able to feed all my factories from these planets except for oxidizing compounds, and sometimes silicon. So just manufacturing 1 P4 with 5 characters / 25 planets shouldn't be a problem at all.
Matt Ellis
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#3 - 2012-11-26 09:07:46 UTC
Just to levy in, i managed to have 1 Nano per hour running with 2 chars with CCU V and IPC 4... its possible... I had to average something like 24k per hour of each extraction... i JUST kept it up and running...

If you have 5 characters, i would look into doubling the operation up... you will probably only need 1 planet producing the Nanos, so you might as well put the other 24 into other stuff..

I had a planet for each p1 resource, and then moved them to 2 planets for processing to p2, then the p3/p4 on my ending planet..

The final planet also can produce the Metals it needs, so no need to ship those around.. run a daily cycle every week or so and you should be fine on that.. Takes 40 per factory per hour. so thats 960? per day, per factory... not bad really..
irishFour
Outfit 418
#4 - 2012-11-26 11:26:47 UTC
You need to get ccu5. If your in a wormhole and you want to do it efficiently. You need ccu5 in order to have your p4 processor running 100% of the time.

here, i will link a picture

https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/1iaGtNbjYgqR9j6VrhPIkxLcjyuAv83s9-Z_2VLU5bJU/edit

If you only have ccu4, Im not totally sure, but im pretty sure you stand to make more isk/hr, isk/day making p3s at near 100% efficiency

Here is a picture of a p3 production planet at 88.5 percent efficient. 10.5 p3 an hour
https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/1P_vcDQNzSmIWV7YbIJFJALNGTjwcQeVIXF3vlTTL1y0/edit

I have been hammering away at efficient set ups and this is the best i have come up with.

I like to have my cake and eat it too
Van Kuzco
Perkone
Caldari State
#5 - 2012-11-27 02:43:55 UTC
Thanks a ton you guys. CCU V isn't an option at the moment since I have to finish training IV on the rest of my characters and then finish up BC V and Destroyers V.

So 96000 per p0 per hour. That was very useful. My calculations must have been off earlier. So far it seems that I'm able to get close to 48,000 P0 per hour on each planet.

So I'm guessing with 30 planets (6 characters 5 planets per character), I should be running 3 factory planets?
Van Kuzco
Perkone
Caldari State
#6 - 2012-11-27 03:20:30 UTC
And in regards to the P0 -> P1 production planets, currently I have 1 ECU and 8 Basic processors along with 2 storage facilities. Should I be using additional launchpads instead? If I used 2 launchpads would half of the basic processors be routed to the first launchpad and half to the other?
Styth spiting
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2012-11-27 07:10:35 UTC
Van Kuzco wrote:
And in regards to the P0 -> P1 production planets, currently I have 1 ECU and 8 Basic processors along with 2 storage facilities. Should I be using additional launchpads instead? If I used 2 launchpads would half of the basic processors be routed to the first launchpad and half to the other?


Base your processers on need, don't simply place 8 on every planet if a planet never needs to prcess 48,000 p0 per hour. You're better off keeping that extra power available for your head links.

Also I use 1 launch pad and 1 storage unit on planets with high yield. P0 is stored in the storage unit and finished P1 and P2 goes to the launch pad. This way if I max out space with P0 my P1 and P2 output isn't wasted.

on low yield planets 1 launch pad should be good enough. Again keep the power available for your extractor heads / link.

Van Kuzco wrote:

So 96000 per p0 per hour. That was very useful. My calculations must have been off earlier. So far it seems that I'm able to get close to 48,000 P0 per hour on each planet.


Remember that if your extraction rates are under 24 hours 45 minutes the extraction happens every 15 minutes, and P1 factories output every 30 minutes. i'm guessing that is where your math was off.
Van Kuzco
Perkone
Caldari State
#8 - 2012-11-27 08:54:44 UTC
Thanks so much! So I'm guessing the routing goes from ECU --> Storage unit --> Basic processor --> Launchpad?
Matt Ellis
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#9 - 2012-11-27 10:45:23 UTC
Or, you could just skip having a warehouse, and add in more extractor heads or factories. The rate of materials being taken out of the pad, isnt being matched by that of materials going in, so there isnt a space issue.. unless you like to be lazy and have longer cycles.. btu why would you?

I run 1d 15m cycles.. don't ask why...

my layouts, for instance are below.. (bear in mind, i am doing PI in wormholes)

My Water planet... Pulls in about 8k water a day...

Water Production

My Gas planet for Electrolytes is pretty much the same.. bit lower yield at 7k ish per day

I run 4 of each of these planets, 2 on each toon...

and a barren for converting to Coolant..

Coolant

That Routes in 12k of each resource from each pad.. so 24k of each.. Takes roughly 24 hrs to get me 3k Coolant...

These are using CCU V, and are VERY tight on grid...

Do that help?
Van Kuzco
Perkone
Caldari State
#10 - 2012-11-27 11:17:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Van Kuzco
Matt Ellis wrote:
Or, you could just skip having a warehouse, and add in more extractor heads or factories. The rate of materials being taken out of the pad, isnt being matched by that of materials going in, so there isnt a space issue.. unless you like to be lazy and have longer cycles.. btu why would you?

I run 1d 15m cycles.. don't ask why...

my layouts, for instance are below.. (bear in mind, i am doing PI in wormholes)

My Water planet... Pulls in about 8k water a day...

Water Production

My Gas planet for Electrolytes is pretty much the same.. bit lower yield at 7k ish per day

I run 4 of each of these planets, 2 on each toon...

and a barren for converting to Coolant..

Coolant

That Routes in 12k of each resource from each pad.. so 24k of each.. Takes roughly 24 hrs to get me 3k Coolant...

These are using CCU V, and are VERY tight on grid...

Do that help?


I'm actually using 8 P0->P1 planets to fuel one P1->P4 factory planet. Each planet already has 1 ECU and 10 extractor heads, along with 8-9 Basic processors. There's no way to add in another ECU so I figured storage (or an additional launchpad) would be the smartest option.

I'm hoping this is what it's supposed to look like

http://i.imgur.com/cULMJ.jpg
Matt Ellis
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#11 - 2012-11-27 12:11:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Matt Ellis
one thing i would say about the 1 ECU method, and its why i use two. If you hav the one, and the hotspot depletes fast enough, you will lose productivity. But yours looks similar to mine actually, if you discount the ECU difference.

How much Stuff per hour are you pulling in?

8 factories will take 24k [EDIT: 48k... sorry!] per hour, so there isnt much point having extra factories if they arent necessary, or extra heads if you cant process...

Looking good though!
Grimlan
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2012-11-27 13:05:42 UTC
I would Place the Storage next to the ECU the line from the Storage to the Factories wont over load the one from the ECU to the Storage can go to 100% and you lose p0 on that all it cant move is lost.
Matt Ellis
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#13 - 2012-11-27 13:12:14 UTC
Grimlan wrote:
I would Place the Storage next to the ECU the line from the Storage to the Factories wont over load the one from the ECU to the Storage can go to 100% and you lose p0 on that all it cant move is lost.


Not sure about that if im honest. Ive got lines from an ECU with 5 heads, and its nowhere near half loaded. I dont see what moving the link is gonna do... the same amount of res is gonna be moving around.. sooo
Van Kuzco
Perkone
Caldari State
#14 - 2012-11-27 15:42:16 UTC
Matt Ellis wrote:
one thing i would say about the 1 ECU method, and its why i use two. If you hav the one, and the hotspot depletes fast enough, you will lose productivity. But yours looks similar to mine actually, if you discount the ECU difference.

How much Stuff per hour are you pulling in?

8 factories will take 24k [EDIT: 48k... sorry!] per hour, so there isnt much point having extra factories if they arent necessary, or extra heads if you cant process...

Looking good though!


Thanks! I'm pulling in close to 48k per hour on each planet (after hitting the install button).


Grimlan wrote:
I would Place the Storage next to the ECU the line from the Storage to the Factories wont over load the one from the ECU to the Storage can go to 100% and you lose p0 on that all it cant move is lost.


I've upgraded my link to handle the increased flow. It wouldn't let me route the P0 if my link wasn't a high enough level.
Matt Ellis
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#15 - 2012-11-27 16:14:39 UTC
Van Kuzco wrote:
Matt Ellis wrote:
one thing i would say about the 1 ECU method, and its why i use two. If you hav the one, and the hotspot depletes fast enough, you will lose productivity. But yours looks similar to mine actually, if you discount the ECU difference.

How much Stuff per hour are you pulling in?

8 factories will take 24k [EDIT: 48k... sorry!] per hour, so there isnt much point having extra factories if they arent necessary, or extra heads if you cant process...

Looking good though!


Thanks! I'm pulling in close to 48k per hour on each planet (after hitting the install button).


Grimlan wrote:
I would Place the Storage next to the ECU the line from the Storage to the Factories wont over load the one from the ECU to the Storage can go to 100% and you lose p0 on that all it cant move is lost.


I've upgraded my link to handle the increased flow. It wouldn't let me route the P0 if my link wasn't a high enough level.



Great news!

With the number game, your factories will always suck in 6000 an hour. i once had one planet that was trying to process 2x what it was outputting. its all about balance, which is annoying. oh, and you will see fluctuations in your p1 output daily, as the extractors pull up varying amounts of resource... try and aim for over the key number..
Van Kuzco
Perkone
Caldari State
#16 - 2012-11-28 23:39:50 UTC
Thanks everyone so much!

I finally have my p4 factory planet up and running. It took me a while to fine tune that design as well, but with CCU IV I use the following (I'll post a picture later when I'm back at home):

20 Advanced Factories (16 for converting p1 to p2 and 4 for converting p2 to p3)
1 High Tech Production Plant (for p3 to p4)
2 launchpads (where 4 P1s are stored at each one and routed to the p1 to p2 factories)
Note that each launchpad can hold around 26000 P1, so 6500 P1 per launchpad if you're using two.
Using two launchpads will also let you run a factory for about 40 hours straight.
1 storage facility (where the weird P1 is stored, in this case reactive metals, and where the nano factories are routed).

I also plan to store additional P1 in the customs office, which should let me go ~100 hours without having to do a reload trip.

Anyone see any possible improvements to this current setup or any better ideas?
Styth spiting
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2012-11-29 01:14:51 UTC
Van Kuzco wrote:
Thanks everyone so much!

I finally have my p4 factory planet up and running. It took me a while to fine tune that design as well, but with CCU IV I use the following (I'll post a picture later when I'm back at home):

20 Advanced Factories (16 for converting p1 to p2 and 4 for converting p2 to p3)
1 High Tech Production Plant (for p3 to p4)
2 launchpads (where 4 P1s are stored at each one and routed to the p1 to p2 factories)
Note that each launchpad can hold around 26000 P1, so 6500 P1 per launchpad if you're using two.
Using two launchpads will also let you run a factory for about 40 hours straight.
1 storage facility (where the weird P1 is stored, in this case reactive metals, and where the nano factories are routed).

I also plan to store additional P1 in the customs office, which should let me go ~100 hours without having to do a reload trip.

Anyone see any possible improvements to this current setup or any better ideas?


Sounds pretty good. I generally use 2 launch pads and 1 storage unit on my factories (with CC IV) but i spent a descent amount of time researching where my factory setup would be and have the factories setup on very small planets (smaller links, more power).

Basically 1 launch pad to hold P1 goods. 2nd launch pad is where P4 is stored at as well as misc P2 I import for use. The storage unit is where all P2, p3, etc are stored at while waiting for use. Very useful if you are making a P4 that requires 3 P3's and you run in 2 day cycles.

That and extra storage is always a good thing.

Also with CC V there isn't really much more you can add to it. 2000 additional power dosen't really have much use. With CC V I use 3 launch pads and 1 storage unit. Same setup as above except it allows me to import enough P1 for 2 days of cycle time. There is also enough power left over for 2 advanced factories, which I setup to run P2 materails that will be used in the 3rd P3 material that i will need to run next (for P4 mats that require 3 P3 with 3 P2 each).
Van Kuzco
Perkone
Caldari State
#18 - 2012-11-29 01:40:29 UTC
Styth spiting wrote:

Sounds pretty good. I generally use 2 launch pads and 1 storage unit on my factories (with CC IV) but i spent a descent amount of time researching where my factory setup would be and have the factories setup on very small planets (smaller links, more power).

Basically 1 launch pad to hold P1 goods. 2nd launch pad is where P4 is stored at as well as misc P2 I import for use. The storage unit is where all P2, p3, etc are stored at while waiting for use. Very useful if you are making a P4 that requires 3 P3's and you run in 2 day cycles.

That and extra storage is always a good thing.

Also with CC V there isn't really much more you can add to it. 2000 additional power dosen't really have much use. With CC V I use 3 launch pads and 1 storage unit. Same setup as above except it allows me to import enough P1 for 2 days of cycle time. There is also enough power left over for 2 advanced factories, which I setup to run P2 materails that will be used in the 3rd P3 material that i will need to run next (for P4 mats that require 3 P3 with 3 P2 each).


Yeah, the numbers you provided really helped me in calculating mass and quantities.

Luckily Nano Robots is an easier P4 so I can go a bit longer without having to refill my factories. I'll probably stop at CC IV just because I have too many other things I need to train. I usually can't play on the weekends so unfortunately my factories will lie dormant for probably half a day to a day a week. I havent calculated how much this will actually hurt me in the long run.
Styth spiting
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2012-11-29 03:01:43 UTC
Van Kuzco wrote:


Yeah, the numbers you provided really helped me in calculating mass and quantities.

Luckily Nano Robots is an easier P4 so I can go a bit longer without having to refill my factories. I'll probably stop at CC IV just because I have too many other things I need to train. I usually can't play on the weekends so unfortunately my factories will lie dormant for probably half a day to a day a week. I havent calculated how much this will actually hurt me in the long run.



I do 22 p4 cycles which is 24 hours (1 hour for p3 factories to start up, 1 hour for p4 factory to start up).

I put in 3200 P1 of each type required (8 P1 types x 3200) which comes out to something like 9680m3, or basically enough to fill 1 launch pad. So generally if you have 1 launch pad full of P1 mats you should get 22 units over 24 hours. If you want more you'll need to utilize more storage space.
Van Kuzco
Perkone
Caldari State
#20 - 2012-11-29 03:08:53 UTC
Styth spiting wrote:
Van Kuzco wrote:


Yeah, the numbers you provided really helped me in calculating mass and quantities.

Luckily Nano Robots is an easier P4 so I can go a bit longer without having to refill my factories. I'll probably stop at CC IV just because I have too many other things I need to train. I usually can't play on the weekends so unfortunately my factories will lie dormant for probably half a day to a day a week. I havent calculated how much this will actually hurt me in the long run.



I do 22 p4 cycles which is 24 hours (1 hour for p3 factories to start up, 1 hour for p4 factory to start up).

I put in 3200 P1 of each type required (8 P1 types x 3200) which comes out to something like 9680m3, or basically enough to fill 1 launch pad. So generally if you have 1 launch pad full of P1 mats you should get 22 units over 24 hours. If you want more you'll need to utilize more storage space.


Just a question, why wouldn't you use 2 launchpads to store 4 P1s each? If i'm not mistaken you'd be able to double the time before refilling and the number of the random P2 is inconsequential enough to be stored where the P4s get routed to. Then again I'm just getting started in all of this...
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