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The Big Lie

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Lance Rossiter
CHAINS Corp
#81 - 2012-11-22 02:14:31 UTC
Well done Mr. Malcanis, that was a well written and eminently sensible piece of journalism.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#82 - 2012-11-22 03:13:18 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
The bottom line is this. CCP wants max subscribers. They are going to do whatever is necessary to create environments where both PVPers and carebears can enjoy playing the game the way they enjoy playing the game.

It doesn't matter how loudly one side or the other calls for removing the other, CCP is going to ignore that. CCP will watch subs and unsubs, and make game changes necessary to keep as many (of each type of player) playing, and paying.


Most MMO players don't stick with a game just to make gold. If new content isn't being added, they won't stick with it. The sandbox model simply does not appeal to most of those types of players, carebear or otherwise. The game's own "content" is repetitive and boring; UGC has kept this game afloat since 2003.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Angeal MacNova
Holefood Inc.
Warriors of the Blood God
#83 - 2012-11-22 04:04:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Angeal MacNova
Tippia wrote:

No, it's an example of “this is how EVE works, and if you want to play it, you need to consider this fundamental design decision”. It says absolutely nothing about how the game is meant to be played because that's the whole point: you choose. No matter what, though, the choice will exist within what the game can and cannot do — you cannot choose away the PvP environment that inherently comes with the multiplayer sandbox.


Except that by saying “this is how EVE works, and if you want to play it, you need to consider this fundamental design decision” you are indeed saying how the game is meant to be played. There is no choice, it's all or nothing. The example of the miner being an extreme example but certainly possible. He chooses to mine but can't undock without being suicide ganked. So what can he do? Hire mercs? Try and fight back? According to the quoted statement, doing those two things is how the game is meant to be played but if he does that, he is no longer playing the way he chose to which is a contradiction to people being able to choose how they want to play. He was forced by another player to change how he chose to play, even if it is only temporary.

Quote:

How does it contradict anything and how is it false? You are free to carebear it up as much as you like — the game isn't going to stop you since it fully allows for that play style, and other players can't disallow anything since that's far beyond their control.


It's not beyond anyone's control if they have the isk (or rather the willingness to lose isk) and manpower.

Quote:

The only way for it not to be PvP is if there's a bot at the other end. Otherwise, it's a player vs. player conflict, and the shooty bit is a pretty small part of that conflict. There are plenty of decisions that lead up to it, all of which can be “won” or “lost”.


UFC, boxing, hockey, soccer, foot ball. All fine examples of real world pvp. Some kid pushing around a smaller (most likely lower grade) kid at school. A fine example of bullying. Something nobody should consider pvp. People selectively targeting ships that don't even have a weapon module because they don't have a weapon module, is no better. You say that you assume the risks when you log in but I say you only assume such risks when you enter .4 or lower sec space. The reason being is as follows:

CCP creates EVE
CCP creates CONCORD
CCP buffs CONCORD
CCP about to release a new flagging system to make aggressors attackable to the EVE public

Noticing a trend here. CCP simply wants to use a game mechanic. They don't want to resort to "magic" forces (eg. activating certain modules against another player in .5 or above simply doesn't work and gives a message saying that you can't). However CCP will also do what they feel is necessary to keep people paying and playing. So long as the gankers are a minority, CCP will cater to the majority (as a respectable business looking to stay in business should) which are those who tend to be targeted by the gankers. Gankers don't typically actively hunt other gankers because if gankers wanted to fight people who are also looking for a fight, they wouldn't be gankers anymore.

Quote:
And no, you're still not disallowing any kind of playstyle. He's as free as ever to go and mine. He just needs to be aware of his environment. The only thing that would come close to player-made “disallowing” would be to constantly harass him to the point where he can't play the game, and that falls under the EVE definition of griefing — something that gets you banned… so it's not really something that's available in the standard player tool kit.


I do recall doing the SoE epic arc. I couldn't finish a mission because after killing the target npc, a group of players in PvP fit ships would steal from the wreck. They were doing this to quite a few people. This simple act completely denied a couple players access to game content. CCP's word on the matter was that it was within the scope of the game for them to do so. Yet your gonna tell me that if a group of players denied a miner access to game content (mining in part or in its entirety) would be banned? Perhaps if CCP clued into their fallacy on their previous stance of the matter.

http://www.projectvaulderie.com/goodnight-sweet-prince/

http://www.projectvaulderie.com/the-untold-story/

CCP's true, butthurt, colors.

Because those who can't do themselves keep others from doing too.
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#84 - 2012-11-22 06:39:31 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
Good read, except for the section "(4) Remember that other people are rational."

I've made way to much wealth off the fact that most people are not rational. Being rational is something you have to train your mind for, and most people simply don't. People buy overpriced goods or more than they need, fall for very simplistic scams, and in general react more with their gut (pride, jealousy, hate and love).

Economists wish people were rational, because if they followed simple logic and utilitarianism their calculations on the movement of markets would actually have some predictive value. But people aren't robots, and assuming they are will get you in trouble more often then not.

People sill generally make rational or semi rational decisions but they'll use incomplete or bad information to do so. Or they'll simplify their decision making with harmful generalizations (racism is a good example. All gankers are sociopaths is another.)


People are not rational by default. They have to be taught about utility and how to maximize it, to plan and strategize. There are plenty of people who have learned these things, and if you hang around them all the time, you may think that everyone is like that. When those people screw up, it is just a miscalculation or some bad input.

But many people (I would argue, most) never really learned to plan their actions in such ways.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#85 - 2012-11-22 07:13:42 UTC
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
Good read, except for the section "(4) Remember that other people are rational."

I've made way to much wealth off the fact that most people are not rational. Being rational is something you have to train your mind for, and most people simply don't. People buy overpriced goods or more than they need, fall for very simplistic scams, and in general react more with their gut (pride, jealousy, hate and love).

Economists wish people were rational, because if they followed simple logic and utilitarianism their calculations on the movement of markets would actually have some predictive value. But people aren't robots, and assuming they are will get you in trouble more often then not.

People sill generally make rational or semi rational decisions but they'll use incomplete or bad information to do so. Or they'll simplify their decision making with harmful generalizations (racism is a good example. All gankers are sociopaths is another.)


People are not rational by default. They have to be taught about utility and how to maximize it, to plan and strategize. There are plenty of people who have learned these things, and if you hang around them all the time, you may think that everyone is like that. When those people screw up, it is just a miscalculation or some bad input.

But many people (I would argue, most) never really learned to plan their actions in such ways.


Perhaps I should have expanded that section: generally people have reasons for what they do. The reasoning may not be perfect, and the information definitely isn't, but there will be a reason.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
dexington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#86 - 2012-11-22 07:32:01 UTC
If you're a new player reading themittani.com (or evenews24) for the first time because you're interested in what goes on in eve, ******* forget it. You're better off reading hardcore fetish inspired pornography, or hanging out on 4chan. At least trash like this has some modicum of entertainment value, whereas the eve "news sites" have become some kind of fetid sinkhole for all the worst kinds of recycled academic masturbation imaginable.

I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#87 - 2012-11-22 07:32:51 UTC
dexington wrote:
If you're a new player reading themittani.com (or evenews24) for the first time because you're interested in what goes on in eve, ******* forget it. You're better off reading hardcore fetish inspired pornography, or hanging out on 4chan. At least trash like this has some modicum of entertainment value, whereas the eve "news sites" have become some kind of fetid sinkhole for all the worst kinds of recycled academic ************ imaginable.



If I used a word you don't understand, just ask what it means. I'm happy to help.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Some Rando
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#88 - 2012-11-22 07:42:39 UTC
Late praise, but I have to agree it was a pretty good read. tbh, though, I love The Big Lie because it provides hours of wholesome trolling. And I hate the carebear attitude.

Nerf the **** out of high-sec.

CCP has no sense of humour.
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
Goonswarm Federation
#89 - 2012-11-22 07:47:16 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Berendas wrote:
Good read, but I think you need to add a footnote to section (4). Some people are just there to annoy, incite argument, and get their yucks at the discussion's expense. They may be completely logical people (most legitimate trolls are) but they will not allow their logic to be visible and will make posts that are incorrect or intentionally uninformed. Not everyone is wise to their game so these detractors may be obvious to some but not all of EVE's forum-goers.



This is a must read interview with a Troll related to the topic at hand:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/tv-and-radio/2012/nov/09/confessions-of-an-internet-troll


OMG this is hilarious....still laughing...ty for that...

TunDraGon is recruiting! "Also, your boobs [:o] "   CCP Eterne, 2012 "When in doubt...make a diȼk joke." Robin Williams - RIP
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#90 - 2012-11-22 09:06:25 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
If I used a word you don't understand, just ask what it means. I'm happy to help.


I think he's referring to the status of the two sites as being propaganda dispensaries, rather than practically useful for the people who aren't controlling the message.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#91 - 2012-11-22 09:28:02 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
If I used a word you don't understand, just ask what it means. I'm happy to help.


I think he's referring to the status of the two sites as being propaganda dispensaries, rather than practically useful for the people who aren't controlling the message.


As previously mentioned, I'm in an alliance that is currently hostile to the CFC (although not currently actively engaged against them). Simply dimissing the site (and therefore all its content) as a "propaganda mouthpiece" is pure laziness, and probably reveals more about his prejudices than about the content of my article. It's perhaps worth mentioning that The Big Lie is a direct attack on (amongst other things) the "pubbie" meme. Where is the propaganda mouthpiece now? Simply dismissing the article is far easier than reading it, understanding it and criticizing it.

In short: proof or STFU

As the author of the piece, I'm quite happy to publish on TheMittani, because I'm confident that there will not be any editorial interference concerning the theme and conclusions of my pieces, and I would recommend anyone who feels the urge to write something more substantial than an evanescent forum post to do the same. In the event that I submitted an article which was substantially changed by the editors, I'd instantly repudiate it and post the original piece everywhere I could. As the editors are surely aware.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Josef Djugashvilis
#92 - 2012-11-22 09:29:51 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
If I used a word you don't understand, just ask what it means. I'm happy to help.


I think he's referring to the status of the two sites as being propaganda dispensaries, rather than practically useful for the people who aren't controlling the message.


As previously mentioned, I'm in an alliance that is currently hostile to the CFC (although not currently actively engaged against them). Simply dimissing the site (and therefore all its content) as a "propaganda mouthpiece" is pure laziness, and probably reveals more about his prejudices than about the content of my article. It's perhaps worth mentioning that The Big Lie is a direct attack on (amongst other things) the "pubbie" meme. Where is the propaganda mouthpiece now? Simply dismissing the article is far easier than reading it, understanding it and criticizing it.

In short: proof or STFU

As the author of the piece, I'm quite happy to publish on TheMittani, because I'm confident that there will not be any editorial interference concerning the theme and conclusions of my pieces, and I would recommend anyone who feels the urge to write something more substantial than an evanescent forum post to do the same. In the event that I submitted an article which was substantially changed by the editors, I'd instantly repudiate it and post the original piece everywhere I could. As the editors are surely aware.



The Mittani?

I thought it was The Ego.

This is not a signature.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#93 - 2012-11-22 09:40:05 UTC
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
If I used a word you don't understand, just ask what it means. I'm happy to help.


I think he's referring to the status of the two sites as being propaganda dispensaries, rather than practically useful for the people who aren't controlling the message.


As previously mentioned, I'm in an alliance that is currently hostile to the CFC (although not currently actively engaged against them). Simply dimissing the site (and therefore all its content) as a "propaganda mouthpiece" is pure laziness, and probably reveals more about his prejudices than about the content of my article. It's perhaps worth mentioning that The Big Lie is a direct attack on (amongst other things) the "pubbie" meme. Where is the propaganda mouthpiece now? Simply dismissing the article is far easier than reading it, understanding it and criticizing it.

In short: proof or STFU

As the author of the piece, I'm quite happy to publish on TheMittani, because I'm confident that there will not be any editorial interference concerning the theme and conclusions of my pieces, and I would recommend anyone who feels the urge to write something more substantial than an evanescent forum post to do the same. In the event that I submitted an article which was substantially changed by the editors, I'd instantly repudiate it and post the original piece everywhere I could. As the editors are surely aware.



The Mittani?

I thought it was The Ego.


Well then you've already learned something new today

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#94 - 2012-11-22 10:00:06 UTC
Care to put the article here so we are not forced to visit that trash website?
Doddy
Excidium.
#95 - 2012-11-22 11:01:17 UTC
HollyShocker 2inthestink wrote:
You can argue all you want about sandbox but if they wanted you to pvp in hi-sec they would not have Concord at all. Think about it.


If they didn't want you to pvp in high sec they would have disallowed agression, think about it. Roll
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#96 - 2012-11-22 11:30:30 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
As the author of the piece, I'm quite happy to publish on TheMittani, because I'm confident that there will not be any editorial interference concerning the theme and conclusions of my pieces, and I would recommend anyone who feels the urge to write something more substantial than an evanescent forum post to do the same. In the event that I submitted an article which was substantially changed by the editors, I'd instantly repudiate it and post the original piece everywhere I could. As the editors are surely aware.


Since your piece was "on message" the editors let it through. And since you didn't publish elsewhere and have your article syndicated, people must read it on that site, driving up page views, putting other articles in front of curious eyes, ensuring that the rest of the message gets received.

See, propaganda can work even without the assistance of the writers.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#97 - 2012-11-22 11:46:22 UTC
What "message" do you think I was "on"?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#98 - 2012-11-22 11:48:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcanis
Marlona Sky wrote:
Care to put the article here so we are not forced to visit that trash website?


That would be rather disrespectful. Also, your request is nonsensical; by definition if the article is worth reading, the website isn't trash. I suggest you put your silly prejudices away and read it, since the article is very relevant to you. Also you're doing yourself a disservice, since most of the articles on TM are rather good in my opinion.

EDIT: You can use adblocker to remove the banner if the name really irks you so badly. But growing up and realising that you're over-reacting might serve better.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Kiteo Hatto
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#99 - 2012-11-22 12:17:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Kiteo Hatto
Eh...what, i posted in the wrong thread somehow.
StuRyan
Space Wolves ind.
Solyaris Chtonium
#100 - 2012-11-22 12:17:43 UTC
It isn't very often that i agree with the Mitanni, but i have to take my hat off... Well written and i enjoyed reading it throughout.