Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Significant ? More significant than a Tengu ? No. It have the exact same delay than a Tengu. So, if damage delay is a problem for the Raven, why isn't it for the Tengu ?

Explosion radius ? With one rigor rig, you have almost the same application than fury heavy missiles. They have no problem hitting BC and up, and if you add some target painters, cruisers are not problem anymore.

And I said it : the Raven is faster and more agile than any fleet tier 3 BS.

I'm no nullsec fleet specialist either, but I think I have a not-entirely-terrible idea of it. If we're talking about bulk fleet use comparable to Drakes, then the neuts will be useful for certain targets - logis and capitals, probably, along the lines of dual-neut welpcanes? They'll need a cap booster. Rigs probably should be extenders or resist rigs to increase RR efficiency; problems of Cruise damage application can be addressed via Rapiers, although note that both painters and webs will be required, in contrast to only webs for turrets, and you're in more trouble when your Rapiers get volleys, relative to turret BS.

I ignored the Maelstrom because it seems to have fallen from favour in null fleets. Well, it's not on the eve-kill top 20, anyway.

DPS - the raw DPS difference is small relative to EHP difference and you're still neglecting the greater difficulty of application of cruise damage at the 70-100 km range. The Rokh fit uses only 2 MFS relative to 3 BCS on the Raven, with a signal amp and TE being used instead - adding a third MFS cuts lock range but eliminates a Raven's raw DPS advantage within 100 km. But my understanding is that the Rokh's gang lock range of 160 km is more useful than a third damage mod. Note that the Raven locks to just 134 km with a SigAmp in gang.

I don't think cost really comes into it. SP requirements, yes, but not cost, at least not on the difference between t2 and t3 BS. Similarly, "Pretty good for a t2 BS" doesn't really mean anything.

Your comment about the meta excluding things with resist bonus - yes, important observation I think.

So I'll update your fit for cap booster and rigs. I'll also drop an Invuln for a thermic hardener, to match the Rokh's fit:

[Raven, hmmmm]
Damage Control II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Signal Amplifier II

Prototype 100MN MicroWarpdrive I
Large Shield Extender II
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Thermic Dissipation Field II
EM Ward Field II

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Cruise Missile
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Medium Energy Neutralizer II

Large Core Defense Field Extender I
Large Core Defense Field Extender I
Large Core Defense Field Extender I

So (in gang), 107k EHP, 518 DPS (CN) or 576 DPS (Fury) to 134 km lock range. No, this is unattractive, it's just too fragile and its too difficult to apply its DPS. You have to drop the cap booster and add an invuln (128k), but then frankly it's still too fragile and you can't rely on the neuts for more than a minute or so.

But this does enable us to put an answer together to the question of what a usable null fleet Raven would look like. With the upcoming Fury changes, Fury damage goes 630 DPS, although given the difficulty of application of this, I'm not sure it's of much use outside EFT. The Raven is too fragile - it won't get a resist bonus, but shifting a highslot to a medslot would be feasible. Then it simply needs a lot more CN cruise DPS to make up for its deficiencies in tank. Around 15-20% more at a guess, either via raw DPS or a seventh launcher (16.7%).

My point were not to say the Raven is best fleet ship. There can only be a very limited number of "best" fleet ships and for example there is no gallente BS in this list. What I mean is that the Raven is by no mean obsolete. "Not good enough" is far from "bad". The only thing against it is the lack of a resistance bonus, and it's far from the only one in this case.

IMO, it's simple : the Tengu does everything a Raven can do, but better. It have better tank, more and easier to apply dps, and it have a smaller signature. There is no reason to use a Raven over a Tengu except for the price and neutralizer.

PS : 2 or 3 TP, and signature radius don't matter anymore ; and you still have precision CM if that is really critical ; 2 or 3 TP won't ruin your setup and allow you to hit AHAC.

Haha ! Missiles have the second best alpha, just behind artilleries.

tbh it would be more as you compairing cn criuse to furry not criuse fury to hml fury :P

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Dear CCP Fozzie. ^ is very true. But let's take it in a different manner. WHY would be the fun of 10% players who don't use missiles more important than the fun of the 50% using them? Because that 10% yells loud on forums, with a sh*tload of forum alts? Because most devs are still at the level they think they are "cool kids"? And yeah, a interesting game makes people pay. Question is, wich people, and what game? The most vocal ones are usually old players, wich use with isk payed plex, so NO rl cash into game. This is also a thing we know, you know too, but no dev admits it. Young players usually unsubscribe, when their way to advance gets broken. Now, there will be arguments like "not every young player is Caldari". And it's true. Just MOST of the real new players, wich are not the 100'th alt of some 7 years old player. True, they choose Caldari because the advancement is fairly fast, and not based on BROKEN stuff, like railguns and other things. (Wich, btw, "work as intended"). Why would i pay for a wrong choice? If i can pick the right one? Sometimes this all is sooo pathetic.

I now have a small wet patch.

Any time you start a balance argument by offereing the "It's a fleet ship" argument you have already surrendered. You can assemble a mythical blob of damn near anything and imagine a scenario in which it might work. The Raven is no exception. But that doesn't make it balanced.

Am i the only one feeling a "imbalanced" EvE won't work? And would be completely boring?
Remove inutile stuff, drop in new stuff. Keep the game in movement.
"The eye wich chooses the easy path closes forever" said a wise man... somewhere in time.A man called Muad'dib. Or not exactly what we would call now a "man". But this won't matter much. He was right and that's all.

My apologies for not being clearer.

A ship is "balanced" when it is comparable to and competetive with the other ships in it's class. This is complicated, obviously, since all ships (of a class) will not and should not be equal in all areas. However, the fundamental principle is that an advantage in one area should be offset by a disadvantage in another. How great these advantages and disadvantages should be is dependent upon some kind of subjective value assigned to the various attributes and play testing.

For example, if ship A is slower than ship B, then "balance" demands that ship A possess some compensating advantage. Perhaps it offers more tank, perhaps it does better DPS, perhaps it's more versatile, etc. But in all cases the two are compared against each other as individuals.

When we assign the fleet concept to balance and examine it more carefully, we discover that even there it is imbalance which rules the day. An individual ship which is inferior to its individual competetors remains inferior as an individual hull when gathered into a fleet. A hundred Rifters will kill a battleship, but they will not kill a hundred battleships. And even were this not the case, this is unfair to the folks who have only the Rifter to choose.

Common sense then demands we balance one ship against all the others in the same class.

When comparing the Raven to its opponents we see that it is typically slower, with less tank, less versatility, fewer drones, and lower (and delayed) DPS. It is difficult or impossible to fit with the modules that experience has shown to be necessary for a battleship. Its ONLY compensating advantage is the ability to hit and do moderate damage to large slow targets at range slightly better than other battleships -- in every other category it fails spectacularly.