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Amarr or Minmatar for PvE?
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Morikar
#1 - 2012-11-19 15:38:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Morikar
I'm looking at getting into mission running and maybe one day trying out Incursions (not anytime soon).

So I'm trying to evaluate what I'd like to be flying as I progress.

Currently I can fly every T1 Frigate, Destroyer, Cruiser, and Battlecruiser. I'm trying to max out the Battlecruisers skill right now before the racial battlecruisers skills enter the game.

I've been looking mostly at Cruisers, Battlecruisers, and Battleships for immediate and long term goals and I'm trying to figure out what I want to fly for missions.

I've eliminated Caldari and Gallente ships already, but I'm having trouble deciding between Amarr or Minmatar to focus on for the next while.

So I was hoping for some input here.

From what I've read on the forums here, it seems the Mach is the current FOTM battleship. How does it compare to the Apocalypse in terms of tanking and damage?

Same question but Hurricane vs Harbringer.

Basically all skills being equal, which would have an overall better tank and DPS ship?

Again, this is specifically for PvE content (missions and eventually Incursions), I'm not looking for what is better in PvP.

Thanks!
De'Veldrin
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2012-11-19 15:45:56 UTC
In my experience (which is limited in the Amarr area, admittedly) the Machariel is FOTM for a good reason. My own (sadly now unused) Machariel was achieved a 1300 DPS tank with 1000 DPS (EFT) against Sansha targets, with a range of 65km (give or take) with Republic Fleet EMP. I can hit out to 80+ with Barrage, though the DPS drops off.

The other advantage of the Mach over Amarrian ships is the ability to customize your damage for the opponents you're going to face - EMP for Sansha, Explosive for Angel, etc etc. Amarrian ships all come in some flavor of EM/Therm which makes them less effective against rats not weak in those areas.

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.
Songbird
#3 - 2012-11-19 16:10:37 UTC
apoc is not even close in damage - mach get 2 dmg boosts , while apoc gets the range boost. As for tanking - the famous phrase gank is tank comes to mind - I have 1 large (gist) shield booster on my machariel which if you think about it is a battlecruiser sized module but I don't have trouble tanking angel extravaganza bonus room (arguably the highest dps room in the single player pve, unless you hit all the wrong triggers of some other rooms) - basically I kill stuff so quick it cannot harm me.

otoh mach uses ammo like crazy - apoc can use 0 ammo if it uses t1 crystals :)
Marc Callan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2012-11-19 16:16:51 UTC
The Machariel gets a lot of its utility from its raw speed; basically, it can generate more misses than slower ships like your basic Amarr battleships. It's also got the falloff bonus allowing it to use autocannons to reach distant targets, plus projectile weapons' inherent ability to load ammunition capable of shooting into the resistance hole of any hostile.

Then again, it's not fair to compare a Machariel to a standard Amarr battleship; when you're dealing with pirate battleships, the comparison is generally with the Nightmare, which trades speed for tanking and raw firepower (a well-fit Nightmare can probably generate enough laser power to punch right through the peak resists of EM/thermal-resistant rats).

"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be." - Kurt Vonnegurt
Morikar
#5 - 2012-11-19 16:24:46 UTC
Marc Callan wrote:
the comparison is generally with the Nightmare, which trades speed for tanking and raw firepower (a well-fit Nightmare can probably generate enough laser power to punch right through the peak resists of EM/thermal-resistant rats).


OK, so how would a Nightmare compare to the Mach in terms of overall firepower and tanking ability?
Drew Solaert
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2012-11-19 16:35:42 UTC
If retribution wasn't happening on December 4th I would of said Minmatar without a doubt, but with the changes coming up there is a strong case for Amarr now as well.

Laser PG reduction, paired with the cruiser rebalance has now given the Amarr more than one viable cruiser, the Omen can now use heavy pulse comfortably while sporting a fairly decent PvE tank, Maller has good damage and tank, but is very cap heavy. From a PvE standpoint, lasers are pretty solid, ok limited damage types, but with the instant ammo switching and the strength of Scorch for long range it isn't a slouch, you're going to be in optimal almost constantly, keeping the dps up.

Battlecruiser wise, again a benifit from the Laser PG reduction means you can do some fun fits with the Harbringer, and the same pretty much applies as above, but in a future sense, with CCP recently saying the Prophecy will be heading towards drones, I think it'll give Amarr an excellent PvE option in the future, with plenty of DPS potential.

Finally Battleships, Amarr already shine with the Apoc and Imperial Navy Apoc and your in safe hands there as it is.

PvP wise, if thats also a goal, Minmatar might be a better way to train but again with the rebalancing, Amarr certainly have some fun options to consider.

Hope that helps!

I lied :o
Marc Callan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2012-11-19 21:26:32 UTC
Morikar wrote:
Marc Callan wrote:
the comparison is generally with the Nightmare, which trades speed for tanking and raw firepower (a well-fit Nightmare can probably generate enough laser power to punch right through the peak resists of EM/thermal-resistant rats).


OK, so how would a Nightmare compare to the Mach in terms of overall firepower and tanking ability?


The thing about the Nightmare (and any Amarr active-tanker, for that matter) is that it needs capacitor energy for both its guns and its defenses (the Nightmare's got a shield-tank slot pattern, but the same goes for the pure Amarr armor tankers). The Mach, with its capacitor-independent weapons, will be using cap for mobility and defenses; the Nightmare will have to use cap for mobility, defense, and offense, so it's very easy to get in very deep trouble very quickly.

It might actually make more sense to buy a cheaper ship just to get the feel for how to fight in one - say, a Tempest to prepare you for the Mach, or the Apoc to get you into a Nightmare frame of mind. Something that won't be a punch in the jewels to lose if something goes wrong.

(Full disclosure: when I run missions to grind standing and earn some extra cash and LP, I use a Maelstrom. It's a nice, versatile, very tanky ship. Amarr equivalent would be the Abaddon - but the Abaddon is incredibly demanding, capacitor-wise.)

"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be." - Kurt Vonnegurt
1125811818
Doomheim
#8 - 2012-11-19 23:09:49 UTC
As I sit here in my Mach..

Train Minmatar. Train for a Maelstrom first, then train the Gallente skills for the Mach. The Maelstrom is a very viable starting battleship for L4's and the same skills go along with the Mach.
Effect One
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#9 - 2012-11-19 23:39:57 UTC
It would not be fair to compare the Machariel (a pirate battleship) with the Apocalypse (a tier 2 battleship). A more fair comparison would be to compare the Machariel (Minmatar/Galente hybrid) with the Nightmare (a pirate battleship, Amarr/Caldari hybrid).

The Nightmare is a sick looking ship and, with T2/faction tachyons, can put out a hell of a lot of DPS over a very long range, however, it does suffer from mobility issues that the Machariel just does not face. That said, my experience of the Nightmare is that ships tend to die before they get into a range where they pose an issue, even when facing Angels.

'This might be internet spaceships, but it's not rocket science to protect yourself and fly with a little common sense' - CCP Falcon
Ronha Ottrit
War Prophets
#10 - 2012-11-20 01:52:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Ronha Ottrit
Look, I'm suffering from the same exact thing you are right now. I've been born and bred Minnie, but I have an Amarr alt and I'm worried about things being lack luster. Coming from the race that's been underdog for a long long time, I have one solid piece of advice for you.

Play what you find aesthetically pleasing. If you are PvEing, I'd just suggest sticking to Amarr missions because that is what Amarr's strengths play to (as per game design.)

The only exception to this rule might be if you're looking to fill a certain role in PvP, ie Jamming or the like. But even then, Cruiser isn't much of a barrier to overcome, and training up both shield and armor tanking skills is something I'd suggest eventually doing.

I only have experience with shield fleets in Incursions, so I can't speak for Armor fleets about which ships are used. I see plenty of Nightmares and Machs being used effectively. Incursion HQs tend not to favor missiles, although this might change with the next patch (honestly havent even looked at the notes)

Both have advantages and disadvantages, and unless you are a total min/maxing freak and thats how you play, I'd say those differences are small enough to ignore comfortably. Paladin is also a nice mission running ship nobody has mentioned, but I don't know how popular they are in Armor fleets. I know the Vargur is an acceptable ship for shield fleets so I can't imagine why it wouldn't be.
Cage Man
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#11 - 2012-11-20 02:49:31 UTC
You not comparing the same type of ships, if you want to compare the mach to something it should be the Nightmare, and then it will depend on where you want to mission. If you want a general all race killing ship, then the mach will be the way to go, if you want to pve in amarr space, then NM is the way to go.
If you want to compare the apoc to its counter part it would compare to the tempest.. in which case refer to above, its all about where you want to use it that matters....
Funky Lazers
Funk Freakers
#12 - 2012-11-20 11:58:59 UTC
Morikar wrote:
Marc Callan wrote:
the comparison is generally with the Nightmare, which trades speed for tanking and raw firepower (a well-fit Nightmare can probably generate enough laser power to punch right through the peak resists of EM/thermal-resistant rats).


OK, so how would a Nightmare compare to the Mach in terms of overall firepower and tanking ability?


Mach is the king of PvE atm. Nightmare can't match its tanking and damage output.

The only thing I like about Nightmare is you need to do less things while shooting at rats and having almost empty cargo because of lasers.
It terms of cap use it is really fine. You get increased cap size because of lasers so it is not a problem.

Atm I complete missions 20-30% faster with my Mach compared to Nightmare.

Whatever.