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Instakill in smartbomb camp
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kuroku 0
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2012-11-19 12:23:52 UTC
Every 5 seconds a noob lose his ship in Rancer, I guess it was my turn to discover how smartbomb gatecamps work.
They work pretty well I have to admit: I warped to 0 to the gate,(yes, my fault), I have time to notice some flashy reds on the overview and the notice of a smartbomb damage, a couple of seconds of lag and then the insurance mail. Pod gone too.
I checked the killmail: I was flying a stabber with 2 large shield extenders, not a filmsy frig. On the killmail it states I suffered 363 damage.
Though I was instapopped.
Am I missing some basic game mechanic here ?
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#2 - 2012-11-19 12:53:39 UTC  |  Edited by: J'Poll
Here is the kill:
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15246076


Given that one of them showed a EMP smartbomb and you didn't have any shield resist in EM damage it would rip through any amount of shield perfectly.

Remember adding raw extra HP isn't always going to help you if they can just rip through it
(doubling the walls on a bunker with a square meter cap in it won't make it safer, they can still shoot through the gap).

Also Effective hitpoints in EVE are calculated using the following things:

Shield / Armor / Structure HP
LOWEST Shield / Armor / Structure resist
Shield recharge rates

So it's not uncommon to die with way less damage taken then the fitting tools says you have EHP.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club
DeBingJos
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2012-11-19 12:54:12 UTC  |  Edited by: DeBingJos
I checked your loss on batttleclinic.

You stabber was unfitted. You had no tank so it was very easy to pop you with the smartbombs.

How can you avoid this? Make a bookmark off the gate but within d-scan range. Next time warp to that safespot, not directly to the gate.

When you arrive at the safespot, run a narrow directonal scan on the gate to see if it is camped. If so, wait until the camp goes away or take another route.


You can also check the map for dangerous systems. Big red spot-> don't go there if you want to avoid hostiles.


Alternative solution: Tank that stabber. Damage control and a large shield extender would have been enough to survive some smartbombs.

I hope this helps.

Edit: Some systems are well known for their smartbomb camps. Rancer is one of them.

Ungi maðurinn þekkir reglurnar, en gamli maðurinn þekkir undantekningarnar. The young man knows the rules, but the old man knows the exceptions.

J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#4 - 2012-11-19 12:56:01 UTC  |  Edited by: J'Poll
DeBingJos wrote:
I checked your loss on batttleclinic.

You stabber was unfitted. You had no tank so it was very easy to pop you with the smartbombs.

How can you avoid this? Make a bookmark off the gate but within d-scan range. Next time warp to that safespot, not directly to the gate.

When you arrive at the safespot, run a narrow directonal scan on the gate to see if it is camped. If so, wait until the camp goes away or take another route.


You can also check the map for dangerous systems. Big red spot-> don't go there if you want to avoid hostiles.


Alternative solution: Tank that stabber. Damage control and a large shield extender would have been enough to survive some smartbombs.

I hope this helps.

Edit: Some systems are well known for their smartbomb camps. Rancer is one of them.


And THAT is why you never should look at Battleclinic, it's the worst possible place to look for killmails.


Though the tip of tactical bookmarks around low-sec gates is great.

Pick a very fast ship, move in any direction and make a bookmark about 200 - 250 off a gate.

Next time, first warp to that book mark so you can check the gate for smart bombing BSs and if safe enought, you can warp straight to the gate and jump.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club
DeBingJos
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2012-11-19 12:59:19 UTC
J'Poll wrote:


And THAT is why you never should look at Battleclinic, it's the worst possible place to look for killmails.


Though the tip of tactical bookmarks around low-sec gates is great.

Pick a very fast ship, move in any direction and make a bookmark about 200 - 250 off a gate.

Next time, first warp to that book mark so you can check the gate for smart bombing BSs and if safe enought, you can warp straight to the gate and jump.


Sorry my bad, PWND by battleclinic. Most of my advice is still usefull though.

Ungi maðurinn þekkir reglurnar, en gamli maðurinn þekkir undantekningarnar. The young man knows the rules, but the old man knows the exceptions.

kuroku 0
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2012-11-19 13:31:18 UTC  |  Edited by: kuroku 0
Thanks for all the good advices.
Thing is my Stabber was fitted, with 2 large shield extender, 1 MWD, 2 warp stabilizer, 1 extended cargohold.
I don't know why I didn't receive the killmail and why the fitting is missing from battleclinic.
I just want to understand how 300 damage can rip through the shield and instakill a fitted cruiser, but yes, next time I won't underestimate the risk !

Edit: so some kind of EM resistance would avoid such a crash ?
DeBingJos
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2012-11-19 13:34:20 UTC
kuroku 0 wrote:
Thanks for all the good advices.
Thing is my Stabber was fitted, with 2 large shield extender, 1 MWD, 2 warp stabilizer, 1 extended cargohold.
I don't know why I didn't receive the killmail and why the fitting is missing from battleclinic.
I just want to understand how 300 damage can rip through the shield and instakill a fitted cruiser, but yes, next time I won't underestimate the risk !



The 'killmail' is not an actual mail. You will find it in your character sheet under 'losses'.

Damage on killmails is not always correct.

Ungi maðurinn þekkir reglurnar, en gamli maðurinn þekkir undantekningarnar. The young man knows the rules, but the old man knows the exceptions.

J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#8 - 2012-11-19 13:56:55 UTC
kuroku 0 wrote:
Thanks for all the good advices.
Thing is my Stabber was fitted, with 2 large shield extender, 1 MWD, 2 warp stabilizer, 1 extended cargohold.
I don't know why I didn't receive the killmail and why the fitting is missing from battleclinic.
I just want to understand how 300 damage can rip through the shield and instakill a fitted cruiser, but yes, next time I won't underestimate the risk !

Edit: so some kind of EM resistance would avoid such a crash ?


Plugging that huge EM hole will make you more resistant to their EM smartbombs.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club
Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#9 - 2012-11-19 14:03:58 UTC
DeBingJos wrote:
kuroku 0 wrote:
Thanks for all the good advices.
Thing is my Stabber was fitted, with 2 large shield extender, 1 MWD, 2 warp stabilizer, 1 extended cargohold.
I don't know why I didn't receive the killmail and why the fitting is missing from battleclinic.
I just want to understand how 300 damage can rip through the shield and instakill a fitted cruiser, but yes, next time I won't underestimate the risk !



The 'killmail' is not an actual mail. You will find it in your character sheet under 'losses'.

Damage on killmails is not always correct.


Yeah. Killmails are one of those names, that are used for historical reasons. Long time ago in a galaxy, that is this exact same one, you were notified about the details of a kill/loss only in a form of an EVE mail.
Marc Callan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2012-11-19 17:54:21 UTC
And the rule of thumb is generally "resists before buffer" - a pair of Adaptive Invulnerability Fields would probably serve you much better in general, because they'll add effective hit points, and plug your resistance hole - as you found out the hard way, you can fit as much raw shielding as your hull will allow, but if you don't reinforce them against EM damage, it'll simply ignore your shields and rip into your armor, then your hull, then your pod...

"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be." - Kurt Vonnegurt
DFA200
Hard vs Soft
#11 - 2012-11-20 11:15:02 UTC
Marc Callan wrote:
but if you don't reinforce them against EM damage, it'll simply ignore your shields


What?
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#12 - 2012-11-20 11:24:30 UTC  |  Edited by: J'Poll
DFA200 wrote:
Marc Callan wrote:
but if you don't reinforce them against EM damage, it'll simply ignore your shields


What?


The higher the resist, the more damage is being mitigated by that resist.

Say someone does a theoretical 100 EM Damage.

Having 0% EM resist will result in you being hit with 100 damage.
Having 50% EM resists will result in you being hit only for 50 damage.

Now say that smartbomb does 5000 damage.
And your shield HP is 3000 hitpoints.
With 0% resist in the smartbomb damage type, it means that 1 smartbomb hit will instantly disable all your shields and go straight into armor.

Say that same situation, you have 50% resist on that smartbomb type.
It will mean the smartbomb will do only 2500 damage on your shield, leaving you with 500 hitpoints left on your shields.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club
Doddy
Excidium.
#13 - 2012-11-20 11:59:00 UTC
I think the point he is making is that his stabber only took 336 damage which is far less than even an unfitted stabber takes before being destroyed (even with 0% resists a stabber has over 1500 shield hp) on a dual extended one that 336 damage would not even take him to 90% shield.

Of course the point is that killmails are often buggy especially where damage amounts come in. This is doubly the case with smartbomb camps wheremost of the damage is applied before you are even out of warp and the killmail system seems to ignore this. The 336 damage is most likely just the damage caused by the final smartbomb out of the 16 he was probably hit by.
Doddy
Excidium.
#14 - 2012-11-20 12:09:25 UTC
Further to the above given that the smartbombers only do 3k damage each and the stabber should have at least 9-10k ehp (even to em) its still doesn't make much sense unless he had damage before hand, offline extenders or he just sat there for 10 seconds waiting for the smarties to cycle.
DFA200
Hard vs Soft
#15 - 2012-11-20 12:10:58 UTC
J'Poll wrote:
DFA200 wrote:
Marc Callan wrote:
but if you don't reinforce them against EM damage, it'll simply ignore your shields


What?


The higher the resist, the more damage is being mitigated by that resist.

Say someone does a theoretical 100 EM Damage.

Having 0% EM resist will result in you being hit with 100 damage.
Having 50% EM resists will result in you being hit only for 50 damage.

Now say that smartbomb does 5000 damage.
And your shield HP is 3000 hitpoints.
With 0% resist in the smartbomb damage type, it means that 1 smartbomb hit will instantly disable all your shields and go straight into armor.

Say that same situation, you have 50% resist on that smartbomb type.
It will mean the smartbomb will do only 2500 damage on your shield, leaving you with 500 hitpoints left on your shields.


I have no idea what hes talking about. If you have 2000 hp shield and zero EM resist, you still have 2000 hp shield and it is not ignored.
DeBingJos
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2012-11-20 12:19:13 UTC
DFA200 wrote:
J'Poll wrote:
DFA200 wrote:
Marc Callan wrote:
but if you don't reinforce them against EM damage, it'll simply ignore your shields


What?


The higher the resist, the more damage is being mitigated by that resist.

Say someone does a theoretical 100 EM Damage.

Having 0% EM resist will result in you being hit with 100 damage.
Having 50% EM resists will result in you being hit only for 50 damage.

Now say that smartbomb does 5000 damage.
And your shield HP is 3000 hitpoints.
With 0% resist in the smartbomb damage type, it means that 1 smartbomb hit will instantly disable all your shields and go straight into armor.

Say that same situation, you have 50% resist on that smartbomb type.
It will mean the smartbomb will do only 2500 damage on your shield, leaving you with 500 hitpoints left on your shields.


I have no idea what hes talking about. If you have 2000 hp shield and zero EM resist, you still have 2000 hp shield and it is not ignored.

J'Poll is right.You still have 2000 shield hp, but you will take full damage on them if your resist is 0%

Ungi maðurinn þekkir reglurnar, en gamli maðurinn þekkir undantekningarnar. The young man knows the rules, but the old man knows the exceptions.

Doddy
Excidium.
#17 - 2012-11-20 12:19:27 UTC
DFA200 wrote:
J'Poll wrote:
DFA200 wrote:
Marc Callan wrote:
but if you don't reinforce them against EM damage, it'll simply ignore your shields


What?


The higher the resist, the more damage is being mitigated by that resist.

Say someone does a theoretical 100 EM Damage.

Having 0% EM resist will result in you being hit with 100 damage.
Having 50% EM resists will result in you being hit only for 50 damage.

Now say that smartbomb does 5000 damage.
And your shield HP is 3000 hitpoints.
With 0% resist in the smartbomb damage type, it means that 1 smartbomb hit will instantly disable all your shields and go straight into armor.

Say that same situation, you have 50% resist on that smartbomb type.
It will mean the smartbomb will do only 2500 damage on your shield, leaving you with 500 hitpoints left on your shields.


I have no idea what hes talking about. If you have 2000 hp shield and zero EM resist, you still have 2000 hp shield and it is not ignored.


Yeah i think he just used the wrong words. He means it takes down all your shields rather than "ignores" them.
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#18 - 2012-11-22 15:13:45 UTC
Killmails are, and always have been, bugged.

I've killed plenty of people using a ship as a weapon.
Marc Callan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2012-11-22 17:12:28 UTC
Yeah, I chose my words poorly there - not the first time, either.

Oops

It's not so much that the EMP smartbombs will ignore your shields, as that they'll just rip right through your shields like paper. Point being that hardeners and resistance mods and rigs really do help.

I've been there - one time I warped a stealth bomber right into a large faction smartbomb shockwave, and it was pretty much bug-on-the-windshield time for me. The only lucky part was that I didn't get three billion's worth of pirate implants blasted out of my skull in the process.

"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be." - Kurt Vonnegurt
CraftyCroc
Fraternity Alliance Please Ignore
#20 - 2012-11-22 18:15:20 UTC
Hi - killmails/lossmails are not guaranteed to represent what actually occurred. I have petitioned this before and CCP responded to that effect.

FYI - rancer is home to Negative 10. They are not good at PVP but they are good at camping the rancer gates. They are also patient. Set Rancer to your avoid list and let them get on with it.

N.b. I will send you 30m later to help cover the loss of your pod/fittings

CC
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