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EVE Online Development Strategy (CSM Public)

First post First post
Author
Bump Truck
Doomheim
#81 - 2012-11-19 09:58:48 UTC


Love the document, keep up the good work. Pretty much everything I care about is in there and the focus is right (convincing CCP money comes from having an awesome game not pandering to carebears).

Great, good work guys.
ma perke
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#82 - 2012-11-19 09:59:42 UTC
eve has a big problem because still cant reach 55k player levels from 2 years ago. The main reason is that everything is focused on big alliances and less and less players interaction.

in the past it was possible to get 100kils on a single roam! (not blob fight!), now you make 4 hours roam and you cant meet people to kill.

few suggestions:
- create more interaction. for instance on completing an anomally you get next annomaly in different system - this will increase traffic i.e. interaction. of course should be ballanced with increased bounties.
- decrease station services EHP, so that it be possible for a small gang to kill it in reasonable time(no more than 10min for 15-20man gang)
- increase number of WH connecting null sec to null sec. this is the main was to get small gang pvp now since big alliances space is empty.
- create an everybody visible list with all reinforced structures in game so that fight could be joined by everyone interested
- make undock radius very small for all outposts, like it is now for caldary research outpost. give aggression to people who undock and rep services/ships.

MORE INTERACTION !!!
ma perke
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#83 - 2012-11-19 10:10:05 UTC
one more thing:

content in eve is created by players who run stuff, take the lead i.e. lead fleets! If there is no FC all peeps just stay in station spin ther ships. Hence to have more content motivate people to go out and make content for rest of the players!

Create reward system for FCs!

- one way to do that will be to give Concord LP to FC based on the time they spent leading a fleet. of course fleet should be undocked and doing stuff. Also the LPs should be based on size of the fleet as well.
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#84 - 2012-11-19 10:16:11 UTC
Zloco Crendraven wrote:
HANS please read this and give it a thought. Its everything what lowsec needs.


Great post, thanks for the detailed suggestions. I'll add them to the notes I'm formulating as I prepare for the summit (for those that haven't yet heard, I will be traveling in place of Kelduum this Winter.)

What I hope everyone notices when they read your post is this - so many of these issues are exactly what we've taken the time to nail down in Faction Warfare through subsequent patches: the proper balance of risk and reward). Plexing works when its lucrative enough to stand out above high sec game play in terms of income, but dangerous enough to create explosive PvP in the process of trying to obtain those riches.

It's exactly what the rest of low sec content needs, and on a larger scale, its exactly what 0.0 needs as well - enough effort put into balancing income streams that creates something even remotely resembling a logical progression. I personally think that such a balancing effort (constructed with a sense of logic and design direction, much like "Tiericide" for ships) is one of the biggest bang-for-your-buck endeavors CCP could begin this Spring, and would do wonders to kickstart activity and to repopulate dead regions.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Inquisitor Kitchner
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
#85 - 2012-11-19 10:24:06 UTC

Let me just say a few things:

1) I approve of the fact the CSM is both being transparent and actually having a vision to being with. Even if I disagreed with the entire document, I'd appluad the fact it exsists and that the CSM has been forthcoming in posting it here.

2) I think the document is well written and just about the right length. Too long and too detailed would have been boring and detracted from the purpose, but too short would have been a waste of time.

3) I think the content is, by and large, OK or good.


The CSM does get a lot of stick, some serious and some just on the basis that you guys are there, but the ones of you who are involved and active are doing a great service to the community.

Unironic ohseven for you all: o7

"If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared." - Niccolo Machiavelli

Joe XR
AlcoHauling
#86 - 2012-11-19 10:36:43 UTC
Thank you CSM and CCP, hopefully some of this stuff will happen sooner than "soonTM"
Konrad Kane
#87 - 2012-11-19 10:52:52 UTC
ma perke wrote:

- create an everybody visible list with all reinforced structures in game so that fight could be joined by everyone interested!


^ this is an awesome idea!!
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger
Northern Coalition.
#88 - 2012-11-19 11:00:51 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
After Retribution, it will be a viable profession. It will be a New Thing To Do.
Hopefully. The new wardec system was supposed to make mercenaries a viable profession, but that didn't really pan out. Best to see how bounties actually play out once live, rather than make the mistake of assuming it'll do what it's intended to do.


the new system is actually not that bad (decshield aside)

bad are the things you can (or can not !) achieve via hiring mercenaries
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#89 - 2012-11-19 11:11:06 UTC
Gilbaron wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
After Retribution, it will be a viable profession. It will be a New Thing To Do.
Hopefully. The new wardec system was supposed to make mercenaries a viable profession, but that didn't really pan out. Best to see how bounties actually play out once live, rather than make the mistake of assuming it'll do what it's intended to do.


the new system is actually not that bad (decshield aside)

bad are the things you can (or can not !) achieve via hiring mercenaries
Don't get me wrong. The new bounty system is certainly promising. But then, I thought the same of the new wardec system. So I'm going to remain guarded on declaring it a success until we see how it plays out with the EVE playerbase at large.

The test server will test those new mechanics. They will not test how players eventually utilize the system.
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
Shadow Cartel
#90 - 2012-11-19 11:31:05 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Zloco Crendraven wrote:
HANS please read this and give it a thought. Its everything what lowsec needs.


Great post, thanks for the detailed suggestions. I'll add them to the notes I'm formulating as I prepare for the summit (for those that haven't yet heard, I will be traveling in place of Kelduum this Winter.)

What I hope everyone notices when they read your post is this - so many of these issues are exactly what we've taken the time to nail down in Faction Warfare through subsequent patches: the proper balance of risk and reward). Plexing works when its lucrative enough to stand out above high sec game play in terms of income, but dangerous enough to create explosive PvP in the process of trying to obtain those riches.

It's exactly what the rest of low sec content needs, and on a larger scale, its exactly what 0.0 needs as well - enough effort put into balancing income streams that creates something even remotely resembling a logical progression. I personally think that such a balancing effort (constructed with a sense of logic and design direction, much like "Tiericide" for ships) is one of the biggest bang-for-your-buck endeavors CCP could begin this Spring, and would do wonders to kickstart activity and to repopulate dead regions.


The suggestion i gave are really logical but as u say the "tiercide" for isk/hour in respective secs needs to be done, the magic formula if done properly will solve lot of problems in EVE.

For me the most important factor is time. Lowsec needs to have PvE activities that are done faster and yield more than highsec. And the null longer activities that yield the most of all of em (My first 6 months of EVE were in nullsec Alliances so i know smth about it too)

I ll give u an example: Before the incursion nerf my corp farmed em and killed like 10 Uroborus in the row. We ned like 5 mins to clear a vanguard and the payout was really nice. That was still enough time to catch farming parties cos we did catch lot of T3 in those incursions. There was quite a nice community battling it out for the dominance over the incursions,

After the nerf we are doin sites almost double the more time than before for same reward. And ofc we stopped and i think none is doing them anymore and a nice piece of content gone.

There was really needed lot of organisation and skill to prevail in 1 lowsec incursion, the payoff was not that bad imo only the Uroborus bpc needed a bit of higher drop rate and it needed on some attribute boosts also (of those 10 kills we got 0 Uroborus BPC).

What i want to say is that it had that ratio short time/same or higher yield than highsec and it was quite popular.

BALEX, bringing piracy on a whole new level.

NetheranE
Error-404
#91 - 2012-11-19 11:40:45 UTC
Overall, I think this was a spectacularly drafted document (http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1211/EVE_Online_Development_Strategy_%28CSM_Public%29.pdf) and fin that it does successfully address a large portion of issues that have and still are plaguing EvE and its respective future. I think more emphasis should be placed on the Risk:Reward ratio issues that plague most of EvE currently, as they are the biggest crux imho.

Further, I believe making POS and Control Towers exclusive from high sec (except say perfect standings), and making them more accessible to younger players would be a step in the right direction. Ex. give them a trainable skill and spec skills that enable greater sizes and more available "slots."
Pushing players deeper into lower security spaces, yet enabling a simply transition between them is probably going to prove difficult, but if we as a community can reach the point where new people entering the game commonly have the goal of "I want to move and live in null sec," while still being encouraged by the majority of existing players, that will be a new EvE that I'll happily login to any day.
:Note: I live in high sec.

Make high sec a place where people want to get out of to get better things, and make the other systems of EvE a place where you want to be despite the risks.
Remove any value of no/minimal environments besides those in their first month or so in EvE, and then scale everything from there. Do not be scared to crack the main foundation of main of EvE's core pillars in order to build a newer and more enjoyable experience in the future. Just make sure you tell us why ;)
^ A good example of this not being used is removal of ship spinning. If you gave us a good set of reasons and explanations and future progressions, the riots may have been less bloody.

I know I trolled and bad mouthed a few of the current CSM members, but during this term you have all done a great job in changing my opinions. Well done, good sirs.
Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#92 - 2012-11-19 12:08:47 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Herschel Yamamoto wrote:
The goal of the CSM is not to remain in compliance with the letter of their legal agreements, their goal is to get CCP to make a better game. You don't do that by spitting at them. I'm perfectly willing to see a document a day or two later if it means that any would-be ruffled feathers get smoothed down and the CSM has a better chance of actually making a positive contribution to the future of Eve. Just because being a **** is legal doesn't mean it's a good idea.
These guys are too concerned with potentially upsetting their new besties.

The Mittani, last year, brought the issue of Monocles, the in-game demonstrations, and the failures of Walking in Stations straight to the gaming press, very likely to the consternation of CCP. He was less worried about his besties and more concerned about correcting the course of CCP development on EVE Online.

Given all that, I don't think his relationship with CCP was hurt all that much. (His fanfest gaffe is beside the point.)

The CSM is more concerned with keeping CCP happy than the playerbase, because they live in fear of being denied access if they upset their keepers.

Now this document speaks to correcting development course as well. But it's certainly not time sensitive. CCP won't be roadmapping their next expansion, deciding upon features, until January or February, so there was time to discuss on a public forum first, then they could draft their document.

What we have here is a roadmap that the CSM is already firmly behind (only five or six of them had any legitimate input on the document), and we're meant to accept its direction, more or less, as is. Given that you don't see much discussion happening in this thread, just the CSM defending their stance, speaks to that.


Poetic, I served with the Mittani. I know the Mittani. The Mittani is a friend of mine. You are no the Mittani.

Sorry, couldn't resist the comparison of you to Dan Quayle.

We (all of CSM 6) went to the gaming press after Incarna because it was the right thing to do at the time. We were terribly worried about damaging the relationship of CCP with the CSM, but we knew that we *had* to do what we did. This is a totally different situation, and calls for different tactics. If you weren't blind with rage at Kelduum, you might see that.

You assumptions about what CCP is doing when are just that, assumptions. Do you actually think CCP would be talking to us about a future roadmap if they weren't doing some future roadmap planning of their own?

CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog

GizzyBoy
Aperture Harmonics
#93 - 2012-11-19 12:38:12 UTC
how do i tell if im in the bitter vet class?


pos's freaking check,
mineral compresion so/so

hulks getting more trit in low than high, hrmmm...

with the relative success at removing bots and the removal of meta 0 items, mins are now trading at what they ought to be trading at, i have no problem with mining in null on contract, but i cant trust any one there not to blow me up. theres also the issue of docking rights.

So you don't want me there mining, so not going to mine for you. That's an alliance/sov holding group finding a balance between pvp and markets.

outpost upgrades yes, efficiencies should of 100% for refining should be achievable, perhaps with time in skills.
failing that a outpost compression service might be available with some form of time & fees for use of the service.

Likewise with pos's refinery off 100% should be achievable with some level 5 skills and maybe some implants.

pcco's suffer in null because you don't like 'other people' accessing them so you lock them out, thus you loose possible corp/alliance income.

Perhaps instead of being plant for corp, plant for alliance could be worth while, thus alliance can achieve part of your goals, "alliance income"





pierre arthos
Out of Focus
Odin's Call
#94 - 2012-11-19 13:11:04 UTC
A main limitation in Eve seems to be that although it has great depth, there is very little worth doing that only takes a limited amount of time. I feel that if you want to attract new players, there needs to be exciting short snippets of content available. This time factor affects us bittervets too; families and other responsibilities often lead to people only having an hour to play, which hardly seems worthwhile in the current climate. I'm not suggesting any specific solutions, just that CCP need to retain the complexity but also look at this time issue. For example, nullsec is often so empty when roaming these days, that a 2 hour roam can result in only a single engagement. That isn't very encouraging!
GizzyBoy
Aperture Harmonics
#95 - 2012-11-19 13:14:26 UTC
pierre arthos wrote:
A main limitation in Eve seems to be that although it has great depth, there is very little worth doing that only takes a limited amount of time. I feel that if you want to attract new players, there needs to be exciting short snippets of content available. This time factor affects us bittervets too; families and other responsibilities often lead to people only having an hour to play, which hardly seems worthwhile in the current climate. I'm not suggesting any specific solutions, just that CCP need to retain the complexity but also look at this time issue. For example, nullsec is often so empty when roaming these days, that a 2 hour roam can result in only a single engagement. That isn't very encouraging!



I don't always go fishing to catch fish, Just the chance of catching the fish is sometimes enough.
(and having a nice bonfire and drinking some beer to pass the time and shooting the breeze with my brothers)
Aerallo
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#96 - 2012-11-19 13:19:16 UTC
I can't even begin to describe how terrible the idea of removing Mineral Compression is.

Fix nullsec mining/mineral acquisition through revamped Mining, Asteroids and this proposed "Ring Mining" before you decapitate what we have left of Industry out here.
Aidamina
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#97 - 2012-11-19 13:30:29 UTC
Excellent document. High level goals are important for a long term strategy.
Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
#98 - 2012-11-19 13:36:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Unforgiven Storm
I left this in another forum post, I will leave it here also (I consider myself a bittervet)...

my wish list to keep me subscribed in order of preference:

Small little things:

- Give us the possibility to change chars in the same account without the need to login again
- Allow us to create Industry and invention jobs that required less clicking and that allows us to make bulk actions
- PI extractors stop, start or restart of 1 planet in one mouse click in the command center
- POS module online queue
- Big nice red Jump/bridge buttons in the overview for Capitals (and subcaps near JBs) instead of menus
- Give shield pilots a equivalent to a slave set
- Give armor pilots a equivalent to a crystal set

Priority 1 fixes needed in this game:

- Give us a new and improved POS (POS revamp)
- Improve SOV system and reduce structure griding
- Finish ships tiercide (including Capitals); Fix black ops and electronic attack ships; fix leviathan and chimera;
- separated local intel from chat system
- Give us a new overview, local intel and chats UI
- Fix null-sec industry
- Fix moon mining (for example, make it work like PI)
- Give us a new industry and invention UI with less cluter, user friendly, futuristic look and that cuts with the tipical excel windows look that we have nowadays; and above all that required less clicking please!
- Improve invention and manufacturing mechanics
- Fix the T2 BPO problem (for example, by removing the research copy ML -4 and give it 0 by default... just an idea)
- Give alliances the proper tools to tax corps, mining and moon mining, get rent money from (blue) POS in their space

New long expected features:

- Give us new integrated accounts system where I can see all my accounts / characters, only login once and lunch multiple clients (one for account of course) from it.
- Allow the possibility (only for POSes) to reserve several slots and associate them to a queue and then the possibility to schedule up to 100 jobs in that queue independent of my max jobs skills and let the pos alocate them automatically having in account my max jobs skills and slot availability.
- Allow us to fly customized painted ships
- Give alliances, corps and players tools to make military , trade, ratting, mining, moon mining agreements (a.k.a treaties)
- Give us more t3 ships
- Give give us more end-of-game contents for vets like achievements, more skills, more caps like carriers T2

Nice to have:

- Find a proper role for titans and supers in the battle field
- Give us all the remaining ships (including caps) with the shader v3 skins
- Replace the ugliest ships in this game with new hulls
- Give us more t1 ships, clearly there are still areas that need more ships (for example, like Electronic warfare/logi destroyers or a new t2 command destroyer; or Electronic warfare battleships for other races other than the caldari, etc)
- Continue fixing and improve more and more visual effects
- Give us more station models for 0.0 (for example, just allow us to deploy all the station models that exist in empire is the easier way)
- Make mining fun (I can dream right?)

Unforgiven Storm for CSM 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13. (If I don't get in in the next 5 years I will quit trying) :-)

Kirith Kodachi
Aideron Robotics
Federation Uprising
#99 - 2012-11-19 13:39:32 UTC
While I like a lot of what was said in this document, I am a little disappointed that nothing was said in regards to supercap proliferation and dominance contributing to the stagnancy of null sec.

Overall, B+.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#100 - 2012-11-19 13:41:40 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
After Retribution, it will be a viable profession. It will be a New Thing To Do.
Hopefully. The new wardec system was supposed to make mercenaries a viable profession, but that didn't really pan out. Best to see how bounties actually play out once live, rather than make the mistake of assuming it'll do what it's intended to do.


Well let's just say that I'm more confident about the bounty system than I was for the revised wardec one. I'm certainly confident that it'l be way better than what we have now.

As for wardecs, I'm not sure that there can even be a good solution to making them workable for the wardeccer and fair to the wardecced. The expectation gaps are just too wide. As I've said previously, I'd rather see Faction Warfare expanded further to provide PVP-risk in hi-sec than rely on the wardec system to do so.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016