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Mission runner's Tengu after HM nerf / A better mission runner's ship

Author
d3vo
d3licious.
#1 - 2012-11-18 00:40:32 UTC
Will the Tengu still be a superior ship for running missions or are there other options?

I'm looking for a better mission runner's ship. Since the Tengu will be a little bit weaker, I feel like it is time to switch to something faster and better and clearing missions. Plus I'm getting sick of missiles. What ship do you think is better and which faction will that particular ship perform best in?

For example,
Arty Mach in Minmatar space? (expensive but 13k volley!)
Arty Loki (this one I really want to try with 5k volley and awesome webs)
Other ideas?

Thanks
stoicfaux
#2 - 2012-11-18 00:58:05 UTC
MWD Mach with 800 ACs and cheap drones.

Or a Vargur with 800 ACs.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

1125811818
Doomheim
#3 - 2012-11-18 01:07:29 UTC
Mach

/thread
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#4 - 2012-11-18 01:53:27 UTC
d3vo wrote:
Will the Tengu still be a superior ship for running missions or are there other options?


The Tengu has never, I repeat never been a superior ship for running missions. It has been an EASY ship for running mission, but it has never even sniffed the top 5 mission running ships, let alone been one of them.

Get yourself a Nightmare (Amarr) or a Machariel (Minmatar) and then pretend that the Tengu doesn't exist. I hear good things about the Paladin and Vargur also.
Boomhaur
#5 - 2012-11-18 07:01:02 UTC
As a fellow Tengu pilot, the changes they propose aren't too much of a hit for a nerf it will still be an effective ship. Is the Tengu the best ship for mission running, no. It never was, what it was is a easy to fly and effective ship at blitzing missions that required little effort to use. Set Orbit, Fire The Missiles, Turn In Mission. That is why it is popular, if you want something better listen to what others are telling you. There is the Mach, Vargur, Paladin, Nightmare which are all better ships than the Tengu overall, those are the ships that most people recomend off hand.

Welcome to Eve. Everyone here is an Evil Sick Sadistic Bastard who is out to get you. Anyone who tells you otherwise is either trying to scam you or use you.

Innocent Eli
War Prophets
#6 - 2012-11-18 20:44:04 UTC
Forgive me, I am just returning from a 1yr+ hiatus and have yet to run a mission. I thought MWD were disabled in most missions (With jump gates)? Was this changed?
stoicfaux
#7 - 2012-11-18 20:48:55 UTC
Innocent Eli wrote:
Forgive me, I am just returning from a 1yr+ hiatus and have yet to run a mission. I thought MWD were disabled in most missions (With jump gates)? Was this changed?

Yes. MWDs should work in all missions. Can't remember when that change was made though.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#8 - 2012-11-18 23:26:39 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Innocent Eli wrote:
Forgive me, I am just returning from a 1yr+ hiatus and have yet to run a mission. I thought MWD were disabled in most missions (With jump gates)? Was this changed?

Yes. MWDs should work in all missions. Can't remember when that change was made though.




2 Years ago.


To OP:

Mach Vargur as stated before by other players were already better for mission grinding (killing all the rats), Tengu strength was mostly about blitzing (killing triggers, take the gate and kill next pocket triggers etc.)

Tengu it will still be good at this, I'd even say probably better but fits need changes. However if you intend to use Tengu or used Tengu to kill all the rats then it's a bad choice because Machs and Vargurs are much better at this job.

brb

Vilnius Zar
SDC Multi Ten
#9 - 2012-11-19 00:36:59 UTC
Paikis wrote:
d3vo wrote:
Will the Tengu still be a superior ship for running missions or are there other options?


The Tengu has never, I repeat never been a superior ship for running missions. It has been an EASY ship for running mission, but it has never even sniffed the top 5 mission running ships, let alone been one of them.

Get yourself a Nightmare (Amarr) or a Machariel (Minmatar) and then pretend that the Tengu doesn't exist. I hear good things about the Paladin and Vargur also.


This indeed, the Tengu has never been amazing, just easy and funky. Thing is that many folks simply spout the "tengu ftw" meme bullshit without checking facts or knowing wtf they're talking about.
d3vo
d3licious.
#10 - 2012-11-19 02:43:42 UTC  |  Edited by: d3vo
Alright, thanks for the responses. How does the Macharial do in Caldari space? Also I might not be able to afford a Macharial at the moment so would the Loki, Maelstrom, or Tempest be a good stepping stone?

I also need to train T2 Large Projectiles but I can use medium T2.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#11 - 2012-11-19 05:33:25 UTC
Under current game mechanics people are totally correct in stating the T2 and faction BS's mentioned are superior to the Tengu.
And on Dec 5th they will continue to be.
However, at some indeterminate time after that (CCP has not announced when), they plan on fixing a "defect" in the new AI which will render all light and heavy drones useless as they will be insta-popped when the AI switches targeting to said drones.

For the faction BS's, heavy drones are not that huge a deal.
However, when a Mach's or Nightmare's or Vargur's light drones are all gone, and the NPC frigs web/scramming it are under the BS's guns, and out of smart bomb range, there will be screams, oh so many screams, of rage.

When that happens, the Tengu may become the only ships capable of handling some L4 missions (Buzzkill, Mordus Headhunters come to mind)
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#12 - 2012-11-19 08:16:07 UTC
Bear in mind that Dinsdale Pirhana has a hostile relationship with the facts, and has left out the fact that although CCP are planning to add sleeper AI to missions, they specifically stated that mission rats will target drones at a lower priority than sleepers. And in fact drones are not always "instantly popped" when used against sleepers either. The near-AFK sentry mission style will be affected, but sleeper AI rats tend to target thn=ings of their own size. Thus BS and cruiser rats won't auto-target small rats unless there's nothing else to shoot.

As for the implication that the mach relies on heavy drones for its DPS, that alone should give you an indication of how reliable his advice is.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Nihassa
RvB Industries
#13 - 2012-11-19 08:37:29 UTC
Personally I prefer using a Sleip, enough deeps and tank for any lvl4 and the ability to take down any elite frigs, in 1-2 volleys without the need of drones is a nice touch when you get lazy. Also cost about 300Mill T2 fit.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#14 - 2012-11-19 13:12:29 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Bear in mind that Dinsdale Pirhana has a hostile relationship with the facts, and has left out the fact that although CCP are planning to add sleeper AI to missions, they specifically stated that mission rats will target drones at a lower priority than sleepers. And in fact drones are not always "instantly popped" when used against sleepers either. The near-AFK sentry mission style will be affected, but sleeper AI rats tend to target thn=ings of their own size. Thus BS and cruiser rats won't auto-target small rats unless there's nothing else to shoot.

As for the implication that the mach relies on heavy drones for its DPS, that alone should give you an indication of how reliable his advice is.


Wasn't the test server feedback MUCH more horrible though?

Last I read (late last week) in the end, the only way people would have drones live for more than a second or three was to sacrifice a flight of T1 drones and let the defect allow them to actually use any drones.

The feedback sounded horrible enough I've bought some precision missiles for my BS, just in case.
Devil's Call
Social safety
#15 - 2012-11-19 17:05:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Devil's Call
No idea how awesome these new torps are going to be in retribution... but you might want to look at a golem?

Arty mach is fun in missions, works really well + you don't need to feel guilty about using faction ammo cause it doesn't eat ammo like a AC mach. And you'll get the same DPS out of it with faction as a T1 ammo AC mach.

The only problem is that on some missions where they spawn on top of you, you're ******.

Other than that, this is a nice fit;

[low]
4x gyrostab (I flew with 4x faction)
3x TE
[Mid]
1x 100mn AB
2x w/e resists, invulns work but you'd want faction+, otherwise mission specific hardeners.
1x Sebo. (You need a sebo for 100km + target range)
1x shield booster, some gist X large one you can perma run, or if you're really rich some pithum a type med. booster.
[high]
7x 1400mm
1x w/e, drone link, auto targeter, tractor... w/e you want.
[Rigs]
1x T2 CCC
2x T1 CCC
(Alows you to perma run the fit without the AB running, 9minutes with the AB running.) If you want less cap, feel free to rig whatever else I suppose)

Drones: 4x sentry, 5x hobo.

Group your guns in 3/2/2. (You'll oneshot most **** with 2 guns)

Sorry for all the abrivations, I was in a hurry.

Anyway, it works awesome except in **** like worlds collide where they spawn on your ass in the second room. Otherwise you just want to stay a tad outside 45km (that's your optimal) and you're golden.

I'd like into something with torps though cause they're said to be awesome in this next patch.

Edit: Machariel is pretty horrible vs guristas imho. Vs everything else it's awesome. Although if you want to run missions in amarr space you can't beat a paladin/nightmare.
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#16 - 2012-11-19 21:29:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
d3vo wrote:
Will the Tengu still be a superior ship for running missions or are there other options?

I'm looking for a better mission runner's ship. Since the Tengu will be a little bit weaker, I feel like it is time to switch to something faster and better and clearing missions. Plus I'm getting sick of missiles. What ship do you think is better and which faction will that particular ship perform best in?

For example,
Arty Mach in Minmatar space? (expensive but 13k volley!)
Arty Loki (this one I really want to try with 5k volley and awesome webs)
Other ideas?

Thanks



arty mach is paper damage. AC's with ROF will get you better performance. With arty you are waiting for weapons recycles. You are also overkilling rats with the final shot. AC's aer smaller chunks of dps but....you aren't waiting long for a weapons recycle to kill that last tiny of hull off. With arty you are waiting, waiting, waiting and then blam....you jsut launched a 13K volley to wipe the final 200 hp on the hull. And waiing waiting waiting to hit the next rat after that.

By the time you pimp fit a loki...you damn near have most of the fittings covered that would run on a mach. Factor in just hull, subs and the naked loki price has you well on the way to mach...may as well spend the extra money and do it right the first time basically,

Or keep the tengu. The HM nerf comes with buffs. Buffs that should helpl kill small crap. Its tweaking the explosion part of the damage calc so cruisers in theory will die much easier (after running tengu forever it still amazes me I can get 2 shot kills on BC's, gurista, ....ithe crap cruisers in a mission put up more of fight and need more ammo to kill). Reason for the disparity is the explosion sections of the equation. this fixed up a bit...yes its less dps but its applied better. Can't be too much worse than now where you have the damage....but its not applied as well as it can be.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#17 - 2012-11-19 21:29:56 UTC
It's hard to beat a Tengu vs Guristas specifically because the very high resistence to jamming that a Tengu has significantly increases it's effective DPS (which is anyway at it's best vs Guristas). I'm definitely considering a HAMgu for Caldari missions after Dec 4th.

Similarly, the Cruise CNR does better than people give it credit for vs Sansha and Blood Raider rats because it can ignore tracking disruption and comfortably engage outside neut range.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

d3vo
d3licious.
#18 - 2012-11-19 21:37:20 UTC
Zan Shiro wrote:
arty mach is paper damage. AC's with ROF will get you better performance. With arty you are waiting for weapons recycles. You are also overkilling rats with the final shot. AC's aer smaller chunks of dps but....you aren't waiting long for a weapons recycle to kill that last tiny of hull off. With arty you are waiting, waiting, waiting and then blam....you jsut launched a 13K volley to wipe the final 200 hp on the hull. And waiing waiting waiting to hit the next rat after that.

By the time you pimp fit a loki...you damn near have most of the fittings covered that would run on a mach. Factor in just hull, subs and the naked loki price has you well on the way to mach...may as well spend the extra money and do it right the first time basically,

Or keep the tengu. The HM nerf comes with buffs. Buffs that should helpl kill small crap. Its tweaking the explosion part of the damage calc so cruisers in theory will die much easier (after running tengu forever it still amazes me I can get 2 shot kills on BC's, gurista, ....ithe crap cruisers in a mission put up more of fight and need more ammo to kill). Reason for the disparity is the explosion sections of the equation. this fixed up a bit...yes its less dps but its applied better. Can't be too much worse than now where you have the damage....but its not applied as well as it can be.

A simple way to avoid overkilling is to just split your weapons up. I wasn't planning on pimping a Loki, even if I decided on getting it. You don't need to pimp it to get 5k volley.

I've already sold my Tengu, lol. I'm bored of it.
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#19 - 2012-11-19 21:49:32 UTC
my bad...forgot to mention that would be gusrista cruisers too. htey take more volleys even with the kinetic weakness.


Also with the tengu the damage nerf, now supposedly 10 not 20%....its not end of the world. I don't do eft warrior, I go off actuals. Say I run a sansha mission. EM ammo since I tend to run ammo for rats. But of recent mission running on a BS has me at about 12XX volley. 10% drop (not factoring the explosion changes) means basically 120 dps drop. For simple numbers we'll say 10 shots to kill the BS. Lose 120 per shot so now the rat is basically if need be 1 extra salvo to get back that missing 1200. Not end of the world to me.


But op said missiles bore him. If thats a deciding factor....mach is a nice home to move into. Is one of the more versatile options. I have looked at say vindi and its just not screaming buy me. Not a bad ship all in all, jsut not grabbing me. NM another option I am looking at in time as I round out the final race to x-train (amarr).....but the BS 4 and the t2 guns so far out I am holding off on theorycrafting them. As even in the heart of caldari space I for some strange reason am getting bloods or sansha (or drones) lions share of my missions it could be a very doable option as an alternate running ship since if trend holds, man, I am shooting em weak rats at least 60% of the time.
Dolmance
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#20 - 2012-11-21 01:17:28 UTC
Nihassa wrote:
Personally I prefer using a Sleip, enough deeps and tank for any lvl4 and the ability to take down any elite frigs, in 1-2 volleys without the need of drones is a nice touch when you get lazy. Also cost about 300Mill T2 fit.

I can't get that level of tank in my Sleip. It is masses of Frigs that take all my shield before I can burn them down. Am I messing up my fitting?

[Low]
3 x Gyrostab II
2 x Tracking Enhancer II

[Mid]
2 x Adaptive Invul Field II
Shield Boost Amp II
Med Shield Booster II
10MN AB II

[High]
7 x 425mm AC II
Sisters Probe

[Rig]
2 x Med Cap Control Circuit II

[Drones]
5 x Warrior II

Gives me 34k EHP. Or 270 ehp/s. Any thoughts? Or just don't suck?
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