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CSM7 - Transparency: Where is it?

First post
Author
Alekseyev Karrde
Capitalist Army
Streamfleet
#61 - 2012-11-14 15:58:18 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Issler Dainze wrote:
So the floor is open for questions. :-)

You opinions on:

Bounties
Crimewatch
Faction Warfare changes
Ship Rebalancing
The UI updates

Give specific examples where you're keen on the changes, and where you have reservations or are downright annoyed with the changes.

This is how you do it Poetic. If you want to know the CSM's position on something and cant find it somewhere, you just ask. You dont start threads soap-boxing about how nothing is being talked about and we're hiding behind NDA and the fake moon landing was done by Goonswarm etc etc etc. *Especially* when these things HAVE been discussed and you either didn't like the format or cant be bothered to go look. Transparency does not mean "anticipate and cater to Poetic Stanziel's personal whims before he knows he has them."

I'm glad Issler Dainze was able to help you better interact with other people. Just as I stick your nose in it when you do bad things, I'll reward your good behaviour (much like a puppy, or other small dog). Next time you want to know something, just ask nicely (you can even EVE Mail me, i will let you ;p ).

Bounties: This feature's come a long way since it was first shown to us. I was honestly leery about them making it such a high priority but I actually think it's turned out rather nice and most players that talk about it seem excited for it. I'm mostly engaged now making sure post-Crimewatch killrights properly support the bounty hunting profession since I think most players will interact with Bounty Hunting in empire and low sec. We've been having meetings with Team Super Friends on it, so they definitely know my/our concerns (whether they do something about it is always the challenge)

Crimewatch: Love it. The new lowsec aggression/engagement rules will no doubt be something to keep track of to see if any unintended consequences are happening (players break things) but I like the direction.

FW Changes: Not really my area of expertise but I have a positive feeling about the changes. Fixing the LP faucet was key, the changes to system upgrades look cool, and changes to complex/capture mechanics seem sensible.Hans has been working very closely with the FW team on this. Only thing I think is missing is some path for losing factions to get themselves out of a rut but it's not an easy problem to solve.

Ship Rebalancing: Absolutely amazing, can't wait for more. I'm reserving judgement on the T3/Command Ship changes till I see what Fozzie lays out as far as their on-field combat capability. I love that they will be valuable on field fighters but the changes to link numbers are a big shift to the gang-link meta which a lot of small gang warfare groups are very reliant on for the tanking ability to fight larger groups of players and must be done carefully.

UI Updates: I didn't like the initial circular targeting UI; like many I found it extremely confusing. However the new circular targeting bracket looks sleek and I consider it an improvement over our current UI which will be very new-player friendly.

Alek the Kidnapper, Hero of the CSM

Snow Axe
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#62 - 2012-11-14 17:55:59 UTC
Congratulations Alekseyev, you've somehow managed to be the most insufferable poster in a thread started by Poetic Stanziel!

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["

Alekseyev Karrde
Capitalist Army
Streamfleet
#63 - 2012-11-14 19:26:29 UTC
Snow Axe wrote:
Congratulations Alekseyev, you've somehow managed to be the most insufferable poster in a thread started by Poetic Stanziel!

I approach every day like it's a challenge. Bear

Alek the Kidnapper, Hero of the CSM

Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
#64 - 2012-11-14 19:58:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Issler Dainze
You opinions on:

Bounties

So this is complicated enough that I have to wait and see how it gets used. The idea makes a lot of sense so I'm excited to see it in game and watch how the players use it. I always thought the existing bounty system was useless so trying to make bounties have some real purpose is something I'm glad to see. I'd be more committed to" two thumbs" up if it weren't for a history of things in Eve looking good right up till they get close to in game and they go in with some fatal flaw. The new wardec mechanism is a perfect example of something that could have really fixed something but went in "broke" and remains broken, only now "different" broken than the first "broken" (unlimited free allies was an example of the initial problem and now I'd say nerfing mutual to the point it is meaningless is the new broken)

Crimewatch

Can't wait!! Some folks say it is just another way to nerf PvP in highsec. I disagree, I think it is another step to making risk/reward more correctly balanced in high sec. i came out and said I couldn't wait for crimewatch after the presentations at fanfest and remain excited to see it in game.


Faction Warfare changes

Optimistic and have refocused my attentions to FW to experience them first hand. I've committed to doing FW as Mimnatar and
also with an alt in Ammar.

Ship Re-balancing

So far the balancing changes seem on track. The clarification of the intended role of a ship is a great change.

Frigates - Since I am a huge kestrel fan i was happy to see the changes there. Also like what they did with the Breacher. Makes sense in the context of the other Mim ships. I'm curious to see what happens with support frigates, if they get used much. Exploration frigates would be awesome if there was more stuff to explore!!

Destroyers - All good, thought the description as ships for killing frigates was funny, aren't they in the game to gank mining barges! :-) The first ship I fell in love with was the Cormorant and the slot change is very welcome! And new destroyers a very cool!

Cruisers - All the changes look good to me.

As for other balancing changes I'll have to wait in see overall about the missile changes.

The UI updates

I need to play with the new UI to say for sure. I'll let you know once I'd fiddle with them first hand.

One final note: I can't say this is the most exciting expansion I've seen as to me it feels "feature light".

Still, new is always good!

Issler
Asuri Kinnes
Perkone
Caldari State
#65 - 2012-11-15 14:40:55 UTC
Snow Axe wrote:
Congratulations Alekseyev, you've somehow managed to be the most insufferable poster in a thread started by Poetic Stanziel!

Poetic has that affect on people.


*You* may not have noticed...

Lol

Bob is the god of Wormholes.

That's all you need to know.

Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#66 - 2012-11-15 18:28:46 UTC
Issler Dainze wrote:
Opinions
Thanks, Issler. It's nice to see one CSM member willing to express opinions on CCP development.
None ofthe Above
#67 - 2012-11-15 19:44:37 UTC  |  Edited by: None ofthe Above
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Issler Dainze wrote:
So the floor is open for questions. :-)

You opinions on:

Bounties
Crimewatch
Faction Warfare changes
Ship Rebalancing
The UI updates

Give specific examples where you're keen on the changes, and where you have reservations or are downright annoyed with the changes.

This is how you do it Poetic. If you want to know the CSM's position on something and cant find it somewhere, you just ask. You dont start threads soap-boxing about how nothing is being talked about and we're hiding behind NDA and the fake moon landing was done by Goonswarm etc etc etc. *Especially* when these things HAVE been discussed and you either didn't like the format or cant be bothered to go look. Transparency does not mean "anticipate and cater to Poetic Stanziel's personal whims before he knows he has them."


Yes, that's worked so well for me:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2069634#post2069634

Apparently I was too polite and insufficiently histrionic.

I guess I really should have worked on being offensive enough to get one of those classic Aleks informative responses with a heavy dose of condescension, but not too far as to get the one liner condescendingly dismissive reply. (By the way those two categories make up for a shocking percentage of your posts. Perhaps that could do with a change?)

Don't get me wrong, I think you are one of the best CSMs we have. In spite my initial reservations and frequent differences of opinion I've been pretty happy you were elected. Just have to point out that your forums communication could use improvement and you wagging your finger at other people about polite respectful and/or effective communication comes off as pretty funny.

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.

Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
#68 - 2012-11-15 23:50:10 UTC
Snow Axe wrote:
Abyssum Invocat wrote:
Let's be clear here, you're launching some kind of a smear campaign over the fact that elected representatives aren't being transparent about things that would be illegal for them to be transparent about, and for being transparent about the things that they can in a media format that you don't like? I'm just trying to sum all this up.


Not to defend him, but he'd probably settle for "actually sharing their opinion on upcoming announced game changes without having to be shamed into doing it". Even if he wants more, that'd probably be a good place to start.

Issler Dainze wrote:
So I'll make this offer. If you'd like to provide a list of what you want my (and I mean MY, not the CSMs) opinion about I'm happy to answer.


I'll start!

"Retribution"


Seems like a nice patch, mini-expansion. A small plate offering that is going to make my feel hungry an hour from now.

Issler
Alekseyev Karrde
Capitalist Army
Streamfleet
#69 - 2012-11-16 03:55:15 UTC
None ofthe Above wrote:
you wagging your finger at other people about polite respectful and/or effective communication comes off as pretty funny.

It's supposed to ;)

As to the post you linked, just didnt see it. Part of the reason it seems I do nothing but troll is because Im not really into reading the EVE forums heavily, and usually the things people link me as highlights are ridiculous.

Your questions were good though, and I'm happy to answer them if you dont mind the delay!

Missile Rebalance: Yeah the HML one was harsh but I've seen the numbers and it's medicine we have to swallow. HML were out of line with every other long range weapon system. Now they should still be competitive (esp with the damage nerf being scaled back slightly) but not blowing everything else out of the water. The rest of the missile changes are fantastic, removing the penalties from T2 ammo and making HAM+Light Missiles more competitive. Some ships are in the lurch (the Nighthawk in partic) but their turn at the balance process is coming soon so they wont stay in the cold for long.

War Decs: Are terrible right now but I've been working pretty extensively with Team Super Friends this past month-month + 1/2 to try to make sure as many positive changes make it is as can be. The system still wont be perfect even after everything that will be patched. But it will be improved enough to be usable. Exciting and consequential? Probably not hitting that mark at this stage but at least Wars will "work." Not 100% happy with the nerf to mutual wars but it's the exploit fix they're going with for now. I also think CCP is not being strong enough on dec dodging with this round of iterations.

Kill Rights Giving Suspect Flags: I am a huge opponent of this and I think it's bad all around. Since there's no downside to activating the killright and it can be free+public, essentially someone with a killright would have a permanent suspect flag as everyone activates it for the hell of it. It creates a situation where you force someone to go out side the system and claim the killright with an alt (major reason the current bounty system isnt credible) or simply not play for a month Additionally, opening up everyone to kill. If the killright costs money and is being cashed in so you can try to claim a bounty on that player, the bounty hunter is out of luck because he or she will have to split the money with all the randoms that also take pot shots at the guy. Undercutting their profit is not the way to support the bounty hunting profession, which is a main feature of Retribution and will almost certainly start up in empire/shallow lowsec initially. I'm continuing to emphasize this to the Bounty/Crimewatch teams in hopes they take a more constructive approach to transferable killrights.

Bounty Restrictions/Expiration: Bounties wont just be public. And as far as getting the bounty back on disbanded corps + quitting players, i think that's both necessary for player confidence in the feature and a sensible mechanic. Having the leader of the bounty board not even playing the game anymore (thus both unclaimable and irrelevant) is how the current system works and no one's excited by that.

Alek the Kidnapper, Hero of the CSM

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
It Burns When I'm PvPing
#70 - 2012-11-16 18:41:39 UTC
The NDA has made the csm into a complete joke. We get minutes that are combed over by ccp and csm for months. CCP of course publicly compliments the csm (after all that shows they are listening to the players right?) and csm does the same.

Luckilly CCP is posting on the forums more often and so we can bypass the csm.

You are not to the first to recognize that the csm is more of barrier that needs to be bypassed than it is any sort of advocacy group for players.

FW is a case in point. Look back at the pre-inferno threads. It was the rare oddball who was requesting null sec style station lockouts. Where is the thread asking that cashouts in fw be ended and we instead have a forever grind? Where is the popular thread that asked for lp for defensive plexing? There were threads but they received very little support from the players. Yet these are the things that were pushed through. Meanwhile fw occupancy is still a side job for making money instead of the focus of most pvp. That is fw is still broken.

What is being said to ccp from the csm? Of course, we have not the foggiest idea, due to the nda and csm members who know that they are politically better off not answering specific questions about what they propose publicly. They are better off just making soundbites on podcasts or in their blogs.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

None ofthe Above
#71 - 2012-11-17 16:30:07 UTC  |  Edited by: None ofthe Above
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
None ofthe Above wrote:
you wagging your finger at other people about polite respectful and/or effective communication comes off as pretty funny.

It's supposed to ;)


You consider yourself a comedian? I'll have to remember that when reading your posts, may help me understand your viewpoint better.

Alekseyev Karrde wrote:

As to the post you linked, just didnt see it. Part of the reason it seems I do nothing but troll is because Im not really into reading the EVE forums heavily, and usually the things people link me as highlights are ridiculous.

Your questions were good though, and I'm happy to answer them if you dont mind the delay!


Yes, why would we expect a CSM to at least read the CSM forums, how unreasonable of us. Assembly Hall has been disavowed, I understand that. But it would be great if you guys didn't disown Jita Park as well. Better late than never though.

Alekseyev Karrde wrote:

Missile Rebalance: Yeah the HML one was harsh but I've seen the numbers and it's medicine we have to swallow. HML were out of line with every other long range weapon system. Now they should still be competitive (esp with the damage nerf being scaled back slightly) but not blowing everything else out of the water. The rest of the missile changes are fantastic, removing the penalties from T2 ammo and making HAM+Light Missiles more competitive. Some ships are in the lurch (the Nighthawk in partic) but their turn at the balance process is coming soon so they wont stay in the cold for long.


Still don't get why the Missiles where considered so out of line. Never considered them so. I hope you are right that they will stay competitive. Do like the balance otherwise. Still think torpedoes could use more range. Have to admit I've lost track where this is after all the iterations and changing so many different variables.

Alekseyev Karrde wrote:

War Decs: Are terrible right now but I've been working pretty extensively with Team Super Friends this past month-month + 1/2 to try to make sure as many positive changes make it is as can be. The system still wont be perfect even after everything that will be patched. But it will be improved enough to be usable. Exciting and consequential? Probably not hitting that mark at this stage but at least Wars will "work." Not 100% happy with the nerf to mutual wars but it's the exploit fix they're going with for now. I also think CCP is not being strong enough on dec dodging with this round of iterations.


I think nearly everyone agreed from about day one that mutual permawars where not going to work long term. Still not clear on the mechanics that got into the quick fix. (Instadrop? Cooling off period?)

Still prefer the idea of considering the checking of the mutual to be a counter wardec. If the original aggressor withdraws it makes sense to consider the original defender still at war, but now need to pay fees to maintain since it is no longer mutual. May be too complex to get into next release, even though it has the advantage of using largely existing mechanisms.

Are you happy with the ally scaling costs? I still don't like it. I'd prefer the ally pay based on how many wars he's allied in.

I worry about anti dec dodging measures btw. I think a player should be able to dodge the dec by dropping corp (although probably not in space), they should not be able to just rejoin however. That was a good mechanic to introduce. Players dropping corp means the corp is weaker and war is closer to won by the attacker. Trapping people in corp will lead to people not logging in, if they really don't want to play that.

Continued (because I've reached max number of quotes)...

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.

None ofthe Above
#72 - 2012-11-17 16:31:25 UTC
Continued from above.

Alekseyev Karrde wrote:

Kill Rights Giving Suspect Flags: I am a huge opponent of this and I think it's bad all around. Since there's no downside to activating the killright and it can be free+public, essentially someone with a killright would have a permanent suspect flag as everyone activates it for the hell of it. It creates a situation where you force someone to go out side the system and claim the killright with an alt (major reason the current bounty system isnt credible) or simply not play for a month Additionally, opening up everyone to kill. If the killright costs money and is being cashed in so you can try to claim a bounty on that player, the bounty hunter is out of luck because he or she will have to split the money with all the randoms that also take pot shots at the guy. Undercutting their profit is not the way to support the bounty hunting profession, which is a main feature of Retribution and will almost certainly start up in empire/shallow lowsec initially. I'm continuing to emphasize this to the Bounty/Crimewatch teams in hopes they take a more constructive approach to transferable killrights.


Thank you. +1 from me.

Alekseyev Karrde wrote:

Bounty Restrictions/Expiration: Bounties wont just be public. And as far as getting the bounty back on disbanded corps + quitting players, i think that's both necessary for player confidence in the feature and a sensible mechanic. Having the leader of the bounty board not even playing the game anymore (thus both unclaimable and irrelevant) is how the current system works and no one's excited by that.


I and a few others proposed that ALL bounties expire. Say after 30 days. At that point you get whatever unused bounty back (less maybe some isk-sink of an administrative fee, like 10%).

Solves this problem, and a few others as well. I really don't like the idea that there is a mechanic that encourages (by offering money back) hounding someone out of the game.

Anyway, thank you. These are the kinds of discussions I'd like to see more often these forums. It both helps us give input into what the CSM is thinking about and saying, and helps us support you to CCP, when you can point to the discussions and show how people are passionate about these issues.

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.

None ofthe Above
#73 - 2012-11-17 16:49:24 UTC
Cearain wrote:
The NDA has made the csm into a complete joke. We get minutes that are combed over by ccp and csm for months. CCP of course publicly compliments the csm (after all that shows they are listening to the players right?) and csm does the same.

Luckilly CCP is posting on the forums more often and so we can bypass the csm.

You are not to the first to recognize that the csm is more of barrier that needs to be bypassed than it is any sort of advocacy group for players.

FW is a case in point. Look back at the pre-inferno threads. It was the rare oddball who was requesting null sec style station lockouts. Where is the thread asking that cashouts in fw be ended and we instead have a forever grind? Where is the popular thread that asked for lp for defensive plexing? There were threads but they received very little support from the players. Yet these are the things that were pushed through. Meanwhile fw occupancy is still a side job for making money instead of the focus of most pvp. That is fw is still broken.

What is being said to ccp from the csm? Of course, we have not the foggiest idea, due to the nda and csm members who know that they are politically better off not answering specific questions about what they propose publicly. They are better off just making soundbites on podcasts or in their blogs.


It is a tricky balance.

NDA is crucial to getting the CSM access to designs and plans earlier in the process. I don't think it was intended to gag them later on (at least I hope not).

I do think that the CSM should be more proactive about commenting on and discussing things as they become public. Not sure if CCP needs to work harder at clearing them to do so or not.

You are right that we'd be screwed if it wasn't for CCP Devs being more accessible and interacting with the community. I think the CSM agrees as well. I don't see that as a failing of the CSM though. It would be unrealistic to channel all feedback through this small group. CSM knows it and has been encouraging direct communication. That's been a great thing for EVE.

CSM is more of a focused consulting group, and in that sense I think a functional one, mostly. Plenty of room for improvement, but still glad its there.

Can agree with your frustrations with faction warfare. I've been watching that pretty closely. I don't agree that all those issues can be blamed on the CSM. In fact I seem to recall CSM objecting to quite a bit of the FW designs and being overruled, and we actually do know at least some of what was communicated to CCP on these issues because it was heavily discussed.

Anyway, its an imperfect world, room for improvement. I think you are taking a bit of cynical view on it, but can certainly understand why.

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.

Alekseyev Karrde
Capitalist Army
Streamfleet
#74 - 2012-11-18 02:17:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Alekseyev Karrde
I'm not dissing Jita Park, just saying that i dont check it frequently. Let's be honest, there's not read-worthy stuff here every day.

Heavy Missiles: Their base DPS (without ships bonuses or anything) reached farther and hit much harder than any of the long range turret weapons. Post-nerf they're still very good but not SO dominant. There were graphs. CCP Fozzie can now balance the ships on their own merits without treating anything heavy missile capable as a special case.

Mutual War Fix: They're going to bring back attackers retracting for mutual wars. This essentially means the only purpose of a mutual war is to remove the weekly cost for two groups to be at war. This removes a lot of consequences, which I'm not happy about, but this was the fix CCP was willing to put in and it'll be better than it is now.

Scaling Costs: Currently no, after Retri yes.

Dec Dodging: No, people certainly shouldnt be trapped in corps. I'd like to see that if someone leaves a corp at war, they can't join or create ANY player corp for up to 7 days. The current one of just not being able to rejoin the same corp barely addressed any issues here. The mechanics and UI of wars on corps leaving alliances needs work as well.

Kill rights: high five

Bounties: If bounties continually expire and get refunded it removes the possibiliy of truely notorious pirates with massive bounties that motivate people to hunt them, and people will generally lose faith in the mechanic because it placing a bounty, having a bounty, and expecting your bounty to get something done that wouldnt otherwise wont be taken seriously.

Alek the Kidnapper, Hero of the CSM

Alekseyev Karrde
Capitalist Army
Streamfleet
#75 - 2012-11-18 04:04:45 UTC
Cearain wrote:
The NDA has made the csm into a complete joke. We get minutes that are combed over by ccp and csm for months. CCP of course publicly compliments the csm (after all that shows they are listening to the players right?) and csm does the same.

Luckilly CCP is posting on the forums more often and so we can bypass the csm.

You are not to the first to recognize that the csm is more of barrier that needs to be bypassed than it is any sort of advocacy group for players.

FW is a case in point. Look back at the pre-inferno threads. It was the rare oddball who was requesting null sec style station lockouts. Where is the thread asking that cashouts in fw be ended and we instead have a forever grind? Where is the popular thread that asked for lp for defensive plexing? There were threads but they received very little support from the players. Yet these are the things that were pushed through. Meanwhile fw occupancy is still a side job for making money instead of the focus of most pvp. That is fw is still broken.

What is being said to ccp from the csm? Of course, we have not the foggiest idea, due to the nda and csm members who know that they are politically better off not answering specific questions about what they propose publicly. They are better off just making soundbites on podcasts or in their blogs.


The CSM is not, has never been, will never be, and was never intended to be a replacement for CCP communication and interaction with the players. The CSM also is not, has never been, will never be, and was never intended to be able to "veto" or order CCP around on anything, game development or otherwise. If anyone was or is under either of those impressions, I'm sorry but you need to pop that bubble and take a look at what the CSM actually is.

"The NDA has made the csm into a complete joke. "

I hear this one a lot, and it's frankly lol-worthy.

CCP is a company, with proprietary information namely being what they're currently developing. Without the NDA, the CSM would not be able to do much of anything. Having us sign the NDA gives CCP a measure of confidence that they can be honest with us, which is important for the CSM to be able to engage with them in a meaningful way. I get that many players do not come from a professional or legal background where NDAs are needed, but they are a fairly common place legal agreement in software development and many other areas. It's not there for political cover for the CSM, cause really why would CCP care. Without it, CSM would not be possible.

"We get minutes that are combed over by ccp and csm for months."

And they are rarely NDA altered in a significant way, and when they are (ie DUST stuff in the last one) it is clearly indicated (in that case with a big bold red disclaimer at the top). If you want a check on that compare the minutes from the last summit with the short version minutes CSM7 Chairman Seleene was putting on his blog just days after.

Not directly addressing that FW stuff, other than most of the CSM-endorsed changes (as opposed to the ones we were skeptical about) were pretty well received, as will the iterations for Retribution i expect. It's really Hans community/area of expertise though. Considering Hans busts his ass to do personal contact with the FW community and they largely support him and his efforts on their behalf I think you're off the mark.

What is being said to ccp from the csm? Of course, we have not the foggiest idea, due to the nda and csm members who know that they are politically better off not answering specific questions about what they propose publicly. They are better off just making soundbites on podcasts or in their blogs.

Well if you don't trust what we say the minutes (which are the most detailed and transparent in CSM history) and you don't trust the blogs (which includes Hans painstakingly curated list of CSM activities on public/private forums, blogs, podcasts etc. which was a player requested thing in the first place) and you don't trust the podcasts (of which mine is faithfully recorded and released every 2 weeks, in addition to multiple appearances by several CSMs on pretty much every active podcast; Are the podcast hosts now part of the conspiracy?) and you can't be bothered to just ask us like Poetic and None ofthe Above, yeah I guess it would be hard to know. Roll

And as for not answering questions on what our opinions are that we give to CCP because of the NDA? I'd say given the above the burden is on you to name a time that's happened. #IDoubtIt

See None, he's the guy I troll. The above is why I troll him/them; they are non-serious and making them mad is way too much fun to pass up. If players do what you've been doing the last couple posts and you'll find the CSM (certainly me) hard to shut up and quite approachable.

PS: I'm glad you've noticed us pushing for CCP to keep up the direct communication. CSM isn't just around to tell CCP when they're doing something wrong. It's also there to let them know they're doing something right and to keep doing it more.

Alek the Kidnapper, Hero of the CSM

None ofthe Above
#76 - 2012-11-18 04:32:15 UTC  |  Edited by: None ofthe Above
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
I'm not dissing Jita Park, just saying that i dont check it frequently. Let's be honest, there's not read-worthy stuff here every day.


I would love to see you guys talk more and get into actual conversations. That would be a good read. Like now for example.

Alekseyev Karrde wrote:

Heavy Missiles: Their base DPS (without ships bonuses or anything) reached farther and hit much harder than any of the long range turret weapons. Post-nerf they're still very good but not SO dominant. There were graphs. CCP Fozzie can now balance the ships on their own merits without treating anything heavy missile capable as a special case.


If you say so, we'll see what happens.


Alekseyev Karrde wrote:

Mutual War Fix: They're going to bring back attackers retracting for mutual wars. This essentially means the only purpose of a mutual war is to remove the weekly cost for two groups to be at war. This removes a lot of consequences which I'm not happy about but this was the fix CCP was willing to put in and it'll be better than it is now.

Scaling Costs: Currently no, after Retri yes.


Mutual wars, yes thats why I was asking about instant retractions vs cool down times. Anyway I agree that its sad to see those consequences go away, but the forever war was not working.

Not sure what to make of the "after Retri", perhaps there is more planned for WarDecs than I know about? I either missed something or you are hinting.

Alekseyev Karrde wrote:

Dec Dodging: No, people certainly shouldnt be trapped in corps. I'd like to see that if someone leaves a corp at war, they can't join or create ANY player corp for up to 7 days. The current one of just not being able to rejoin the same corp barely addressed any issues here. The mechanics and UI of wars on corps leaving alliances needs work as well.


I could get behind the no corp interaction for a week. I like that actually. Solves the drop corp and immediately create a new one with the same people issue.

Alekseyev Karrde wrote:

Kill rights: high five

Bounties: If bounties continually expire and get refunded it removes the possibiliy of truely notorious pirates with massive bounties that motivate people to hunt them, and people will generally lose faith in the mechanic because it placing a bounty, having a bounty, and expecting your bounty to get something done that wouldnt otherwise wont be taken seriously.


While it is a valid concern, high bounties can still happen although perhaps a little less frequently. Perhaps a renewal option would help.

I don't know that it would contribute to losing faith anymore than the bounties hanging out there forever.

People might actually be more likely to throw bounties out there if they know it will come back if no or few kills are made. It could actually significantly increase the use of the system.

PS - Thinking about it, actually a retractable bounty might also solve this problem. Perhaps in a cleaner fashion.

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.

None ofthe Above
#77 - 2012-11-18 05:09:38 UTC
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:

See None, he's the guy I troll. The above is why I troll him/them; they are non-serious and making them mad is way too much fun to pass up. If players do what you've been doing the last couple posts and you'll find the CSM (certainly me) hard to shut up and quite approachable.

PS: I'm glad you've noticed us pushing for CCP to keep up the direct communication. CSM isn't just around to tell CCP when they're doing something wrong. It's also there to let them know they're doing something right and to keep doing it more.


Yes well, Caerain is wound a little tight isn't he? He's got some valid points though.

I think you'll find there are actually quite a few people that don't like Hans' direction for FW, but that's probably like WarDecs there probably isn't a way to make everyone happy. His detractors do have some pretty valid points, but I don't overly blame Hans for the problems in FW, most of that has been CCP's making. Things like LP for defensive plexing have pros and cons. Still not sure how that is all going to play out.

Anyway, yes. Its good to have you respond here. Would be happy to see more communication initiated from the CSM here as well.

And by the way, what happened to those other guys?

Recently the CSM seems to be the Hans and Aleks show. With a surprising guest appearance from Issler. Two-Step I have seen in a few discussions. I seem to recall someone named Seleene around not too far back. Trebor seems to have sealed himself into a bunker after his ill-fated and flawed voting proposal. Elise I presume is busy as always playing and making things explode, hopefully providing feedback to CCP on rebalancing and such. And weren't there a few more of you?

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.

Snow Axe
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#78 - 2012-11-18 05:12:12 UTC
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
I'm not dissing Jita Park, just saying that i dont check it frequently. Let's be honest, there's not read-worthy stuff here every day


Maybe people would post read-worthy stuff more often if they actually felt like anyone in the CSM read the forum with any regularity. Even Seleene's purpose-built "Ask me any question" thread went almost 2 MONTHS without a response from him. That's pathetic by any standard (I understand that he was unavailable due to RL issues, but that he didn't even think to post a "hey, won't be around for a while, sorry" message shows how much of an afterthought the forums are).

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
It Burns When I'm PvPing
#79 - 2012-11-20 23:20:39 UTC
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
[quote=Cearain]
"The NDA has made the csm into a complete joke. "

I hear this one a lot, and it's frankly lol-worthy.

CCP is a company, with proprietary information namely being what they're currently developing. Without the NDA, the CSM would not be able to do much of anything. Having us sign the NDA gives CCP a measure of confidence that they can be honest with us, which is important for the CSM to be able to engage with them in a meaningful way. I get that many players do not come from a professional or legal background where NDAs are needed, but they are a fairly common place legal agreement in software development and many other areas. It's not there for political cover for the CSM, cause really why would CCP care. Without it, CSM would not be possible. .


There is no reason the devs can't speak with csm about upcoming changes on the same level they do with the players. Its not asking people what they think about dockblocking in faction war, or reducing the range of heavy missiles is some big proprietary secret. This is the stuff they should be checking with you on and the fact that you think this needs to be top secret is lol-worthy.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
It Burns When I'm PvPing
#80 - 2012-11-20 23:34:09 UTC
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:


"We get minutes that are combed over by ccp and csm for months."

And they are rarely NDA altered in a significant way, and when they are (ie DUST stuff in the last one) it is clearly indicated (in that case with a big bold red disclaimer at the top). If you want a check on that compare the minutes from the last summit with the short version minutes CSM7 Chairman Seleene was putting on his blog just days after.

Not directly addressing that FW stuff, other than most of the CSM-endorsed changes (as opposed to the ones we were skeptical about) were pretty well received, as will the iterations for Retribution i expect. It's really Hans community/area of expertise though. Considering Hans busts his ass to do personal contact with the FW community and they largely support him and his efforts on their behalf I think you're off the mark.

What is being said to ccp from the csm? Of course, we have not the foggiest idea, due to the nda and csm members who know that they are politically better off not answering specific questions about what they propose publicly. They are better off just making soundbites on podcasts or in their blogs.

Well if you don't trust what we say the minutes (which are the most detailed and transparent in CSM history) and you don't trust the blogs (which includes Hans painstakingly curated list of CSM activities on public/private forums, blogs, podcasts etc. which was a player requested thing in the first place) and you don't trust the podcasts (of which mine is faithfully recorded and released every 2 weeks, in addition to multiple appearances by several CSMs on pretty much every active podcast; Are the podcast hosts now part of the conspiracy?) and you can't be bothered to just ask us like Poetic and None ofthe Above, yeah I guess it would be hard to know. Roll



So the minutes were groomed for months even though this was not due to the nda. Nice.


Few people care enough to go searching the web or podcasts to try to get a glimmer of your views. But it would be nice if players had some sort of access to your views in the forums set up by ccp for this purpose. Instead you guys tell players to listent ot some hour long pod cast only to hear some sound bites that you all want to present on podcasts or in your blogs.

You guys refuse to answer questions on these forums because these forums allow follow up. That is the bottom line on this.

What is with all the conspiracy talk? No is saying there is some conspiracy. I am just pointing out that politically it is stupid for you guys to give your views about the game on the forums. And sure enough you don't do it. Instead you give us soundbites on dispersed throughout the world wide web. Few care.

Jita park and assembly hall are empty forums because the csm stopped what little community participation they used to engage in. Now its just their own private blogs and podcasts.





Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815