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[Marauders] Yes, another "buff me" thread.
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Jin alPatar
Entertainment 7wenty
The Burning Contingent Alliance
#1 - 2012-11-13 15:31:28 UTC
I think most people would agree that the Marauders need a little love. There have been multiple threads (all locked now) discussing possible 'fixes'.

To me, there's one part of the Marauder design that needs to be tweaked. They currently rock the solo PvE circuit, but have no place in fleet PvE (incursions, wormholes, etc).

There are two things that need to be fixed for Marauders to be viable in fleet PvE engagements (without making them huge PvP boats).
* Buffer tank bonuses vs Active tank bonuses
* EWAR susceptibility

This thread: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=169936
It pretty well sums up why active tank bonuses are just not as good as resist based bonuses. I'd like to see one of two things:
1. The Marauders get a resist bonus
2. The repair boost bonus also applies to received remote reps.

Regarding EWAR susceptibility:
Marauders are just too easy to jam. I'm not saying they need to be pure badassery, but they shouldn't be as poor as they are.


I think with these two changes the Marauders would see more action in wormholes & incursions. I'd like to see other changes (salvager bonus, increased tractor range, web range bonus, etc) but they're unnecessary changes that could be too much of a buff.


Thoughts?
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#2 - 2012-11-13 15:40:26 UTC
I find the name slightly confusing as to its true purpose marauder sounds like it should be able to roam around dangerous space effectively and yes the sensor strength is ridiculous.

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Hakan MacTrew
Konrakas Forged
Solyaris Chtonium
#3 - 2012-11-13 15:54:28 UTC
I may be wrong, but if you read the fluff in their decription, they are meant to be solo PvE boats, and they are meant to be susceptable to jamming. The way I see it, this argument is moot as they are working as intended.

Friends
Jin alPatar
Entertainment 7wenty
The Burning Contingent Alliance
#4 - 2012-11-13 15:57:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Jin alPatar
Harvey James wrote:
I find the name slightly confusing as to its true purpose marauder sounds like it should be able to roam around dangerous space effectively and yes the sensor strength is ridiculous.


I agree. BUT, CCP designed the Marauders for PvE specifically. And if you RP the missions you ARE working behind enemy lines in the sense that you're leaving the safety of the stations and flying into an enemy stronghold.

So if you try to write a description of a PvE ship in the same tone as missions are written, you come up with the description they currently have.


I think it's a separate issue, but I'd like to see an actual Marauder class of battleships for PvP. Some would argue that the pirate BS fill this role, but I'd prefer to see T2 versions. Maybe T2 versions of the 'tier 3" battleships we have now.

(Imagine a Hyperion with T2 resists, double capacity cargohold, 100% bonus to 4 turrets, and a web bonus. Gives me goosebumps)
Jin alPatar
Entertainment 7wenty
The Burning Contingent Alliance
#5 - 2012-11-13 16:06:38 UTC
Hakan MacTrew wrote:
I may be wrong, but if you read the fluff in their decription, they are meant to be solo PvE boats, and they are meant to be susceptable to jamming. The way I see it, this argument is moot as they are working as intended.


Here's the flavor text:
Quote:

Geared toward versatility and prolonged deployment in hostile environments, Marauders represent the cutting edge in today’s warship technology. While especially effective at support suppression and wreckage salvaging, they possess comparatively weak sensor strength and may find themselves at increased risk of sensor jamming. Nevertheless, these thick-skinned, hard-hitting monsters are the perfect ships to take on long trips behind enemy lines


Actual sensor strengths of different ships (I fly gallente, so that's what I list)
Megathron - 21
Navy Mega - 26.25
Vindicator - 28
Kronos - 13

I think the Kronos should have a sensor strength around 16 - 17. It's still easy to jam but not ridiculously easy to jam.


Nothing really suggests they should be solo boats. As it stands, it not only doesn't get a fleet buff, it's hardly better than a standard hull due to low HP. Even if you change to a resist bonus, it'll still have a worse buffer than a vindicator or Navy Mega. But, it would still *gain* from working in a fleet.

This is the part I feel needs to be buffed. There should be some encouragement to work with others. I think a resist bonus would help in this regard without becoming unbalanced or overpowered.
Mole Guy
Bob's Bait and Tackle
#6 - 2012-11-13 18:02:45 UTC
i just did a post on marauders the other day.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2160007&

i love my paladin, but having to run a eccm just to reach the radar str of a typical bs in crazy.

you say they dont get a fleet bonus, but think of rr. this thing has the power of 8 lasers, plus 3 utility highs for rr.
if you add resists (which i am in favor of), itll help alot. or, to go with the bonus it has now for self repping, add that to ALL reppers even rr. so, as you said, it would encourage group play with these fine boats.

personally, amarr has no missile ships other than t2 (unless something came out in the frig change i havent seen while i was afk a while). so we have t2 inty (with rockets), t2 AS with rockets, t2 hac with hams, but no t2 bs with torp bonuses. the only amarr ship that can use torps is a bomber. i would love to see, as you mentioned, would be a t2 hull for marauders with resists. possibly a hac extension to bs. the abaddon hull, with its resist bonus, that uses torps like a raven, but gains the 25% bonus to damage like the sacrilige. but, folks tell me the t2 bs role is filled up and there is no room for expansion.

but some more resists on the marauder and the rep bonus applied to both self and rr would be a huge start. i would be happy with the low sensor str. then we could drag em into worm holes against those sleiper punks and have our way with em. or atleast try too.
Seranova Farreach
Biomass Negative
#7 - 2012-11-13 18:18:12 UTC
i do like maurauders but i cant help but think that their sensor strength is too low for a maurauder even for a tech 2 hull hell put some ewar drones on the maurauder and itll be perma jammed which is stupid. give em more strength or extra mid/low for ECCM.

im sure in q1 2 3 next year we will see alot of changes to BC and BSs

[u]___________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg[/u]
Seranova Farreach
Biomass Negative
#8 - 2012-11-13 18:20:51 UTC
Mole Guy wrote:


personally, amarr has no missile ships other than t2 (unless something came out in the frig change i havent seen while i was afk a while). so we have t2 inty (with rockets), t2 AS with rockets, t2 hac with hams, but no t2 bs with torp bonuses. the only amarr ship that can use torps is a bomber. i would love to see, as you mentioned, would be a t2 hull for marauders with resists. possibly a hac extension to bs. the abaddon hull, with its resist bonus, that uses torps like a raven, but gains the 25% bonus to damage like the sacrilige. but, folks tell me the t2 bs role is filled up and there is no room for expansion.


the new destroyer i believe is going to be a missle/drone boat

[u]___________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg[/u]
Seranova Farreach
Biomass Negative
#9 - 2012-11-13 18:22:39 UTC
Hakan MacTrew wrote:
I may be wrong, but if you read the fluff in their decription, they are meant to be solo PvE boats, and they are meant to be susceptable to jamming. The way I see it, this argument is moot as they are working as intended.


nowp they are ment to work imdependently behind enemy lines which could entail anything in low/nul and even pvp support with sucking up the shiney lewts whine they pop people

[u]___________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg[/u]
Seranova Farreach
Biomass Negative
#10 - 2012-11-13 18:23:53 UTC
Jin alPatar wrote:

(Imagine a Hyperion with T2 resists, double capacity cargohold, 100% bonus to 4 turrets, and a web bonus. Gives me goosebumps)


i imadgin the day when we get a t2 rokh like that

[u]___________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg[/u]
Mole Guy
Bob's Bait and Tackle
#11 - 2012-11-13 19:04:28 UTC
Seranova Farreach wrote:
[quote=Mole Guy]

the new destroyer i believe is going to be a missle/drone boat


i dont know about the missile side, but yes itll be a drone, neut platform.
if they do make it a drone/missile boat, then the prophecy, being that its turning into a drone boat, might follow suit and go missile/drones. that would show lineage between the prophecy and the damnation.

either way, i dont know what good a drone destroyer will be tho. sounds odd to me, but i will wait and check em out. i am pretty crafty when figuring out how to use shiney new stuff and will watch how others use it. i can see it in pvp with small frigs all day long. or afk lev 1 mission whoring..lol...warp in, drop a jet can, orbit at 2k and put drones on aggressive. lololol

i just want a t2 torp boat with the resist and %damage bonuses of the vengenance and sacrilige. 6 launchers %25% maxed with mid 85%'s across the board. and a tank that goes on for days. would be good for laying siege on poses and whatnot. or the 3 x2 damage torp launchers and a few extra highs like the marauder.

something usefull, not a whole row of weapon slots like the apoc, abaddon or oracle (and yes i know i can use less weapons but hey...) =)
Jin alPatar
Entertainment 7wenty
The Burning Contingent Alliance
#12 - 2012-11-13 19:09:11 UTC
Mole Guy wrote:

i just want a t2 torp boat with the resist and %damage bonuses of the vengenance and sacrilige. 6 launchers %25% maxed with mid 85%'s across the board. and a tank that goes on for days. would be good for laying siege on poses and whatnot. or the 3 x2 damage torp launchers and a few extra highs like the marauder.


Then wouldn't it make sense to just train Caldari skills?


Also, we're getting sidetracked from the topic at hand. Marauders (the PvE kind).
Mole Guy
Bob's Bait and Tackle
#13 - 2012-11-13 21:11:52 UTC
i dont want to fly caldari.. i like my armor tanking. i love my mid slots.

but yes, we were loosing focus and here we go again.. ;-)
m3talc0re X
The Motley Crew of Disorder
The Gorram Shiney Alliance
#14 - 2012-11-14 01:09:08 UTC
See here; Buff Maurauders

And here; Tier 3 Maurauders

The sensor strength bonuses suggested could be reduced if CCP made Guristas jam less. And the damage increase is optional. Feel free to copy the lists to add them to this thread if you want.
Jin alPatar
Entertainment 7wenty
The Burning Contingent Alliance
#15 - 2012-11-14 04:48:43 UTC
m3talc0re X wrote:
See here; Buff Maurauders

And here; Tier 3 Maurauders

The sensor strength bonuses suggested could be reduced if CCP made Guristas jam less. And the damage increase is optional. Feel free to copy the lists to add them to this thread if you want.


Thanks! I was trying to find the original source of that first link. I'd found that post quoted but never found the original.


To me, the short story is: "Marauders need at least a little love, here are a bunch of ideas!"

I'm sure CCP will do something to Marauders towards the end of tiericide/rebalance. I just want to be sure this stays on the radar.
Mole Guy
Bob's Bait and Tackle
#16 - 2012-11-14 13:39:25 UTC
agreed, same here. just a little loving.
i like flying my paly, but im away from missions, so its kinda useless. if we decide to go back in worm holes, we want something a lil better.
tweak my paly and itll be all the ship it should be.

im not asking for more damage, or more reps per second, just a little less gimp in the sensor cluster and either some more resists or chanage the armor rep bonus to apply to rr so we can aid each other in missions or whatever.

kinda a semi jack of all trades...a lille extra rep, a little extra resist, a little extra damage. a whole lot of training to get there.

even if i have to run an eccm, the extra rep helping a friend would be kewl.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#17 - 2012-11-14 13:46:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Michael Harari
Marauders make great solo pvp ships, thanks to the ridiculous bonuses to active tank and damage application (holy **** a vindicator with hyperion rep bonuses?). The sensor strength is a problem, which you can compensate for by eccm and eccm implants (which are dirt cheap, if you can afford a pvp marauder you can afford HG spurs or w/e).

People dont use them because the upgrade over normal active battleships isnt really worth it. But the sensor strength isnt really that much of an issue - you have the highs for a smartbomb to clear drones, and its not like you werent going to get jammed by a falcon in a normal battleship.

PvP vargurs arent common, but you can find them often enough in the amarr-minmatar warzone.
Jin alPatar
Entertainment 7wenty
The Burning Contingent Alliance
#18 - 2012-11-14 15:22:22 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Marauders make great solo pvp ships, thanks to the ridiculous bonuses to active tank and damage application (holy **** a vindicator with hyperion rep bonuses?). The sensor strength is a problem, which you can compensate for by eccm and eccm implants (which are dirt cheap, if you can afford a pvp marauder you can afford HG spurs or w/e).


I might have to play around in EFT with the implants ...

Another big advantage the Kronos has over the Vindicator is the enormous cargohold for cap booster charges and half ammo usage. "Extended Engagements" starts to sound pretty accurate, even if they weren't designed for PvP.
Mole Guy
Bob's Bait and Tackle
#19 - 2012-11-14 15:36:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Mole Guy
its meant to be a pve ship including tractor beam, salvager etc. thats why they have the larger cargo hold.

its for fitting a salvager, tractor beam and scanner plus still maintain the firepower of a bs. it would be great for worm holes
if it received more resists and a scanning bonus.
maybe designate some of the ships sensor to be used with scannering computers. that would be the reason it has a 12 sensor but +5% per level to scan str or whatever...

this would put it as a pve ship. especially, if it got a bit more resist it would be awesome for worm holes.
go in, scan things, destroy, loot, come home with belly full...
Jin alPatar
Entertainment 7wenty
The Burning Contingent Alliance
#20 - 2012-11-16 20:54:27 UTC
Mole Guy wrote:

this would put it as a pve ship. especially, if it got a bit more resist it would be awesome for worm holes.
go in, scan things, destroy, loot, come home with belly full...


I agree. The utility high slots would be good for probe launcher, tractor, salvager.
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