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Rebalance Clone Prices

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Beckie DeLey
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2012-11-13 16:48:23 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
you've clearly never mined before, have you?


Yeah, but then again, that might be why i can afford to spend 20m ISK when i want to pew.


What's your point? That it's difficult to make 20m ISK?

My siren's name is Brick and she is the prettiest.
DerArt1st
Doomheim
#42 - 2012-11-13 16:49:13 UTC
Supported!
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#43 - 2012-11-13 16:52:45 UTC
Bottom line is that by the time clone costs are anything even close to significant, you should have figured out how to make ISK.
ISK is so easy to make for anyone over, say, 20mil SP (clones are still dirt cheap) that this should never be an issue.

Clones are a good ISK sink and are fine as is.

There is no Bob.

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Jurias
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#44 - 2012-11-13 16:53:59 UTC
Gibbo5771 wrote:
OP, stfu.

75mil SP's here, I PVP in nullsec with 500mil clones and frigates.



Not enough SP to be affected by the problem I am highlighting, the 500mil clones and frigates thing is your choice. Oh and not everyone lives in a C6. You might understand if you were in the same situation as the type of pilots I am talking about.
Dave stark
#45 - 2012-11-13 16:55:05 UTC
Beckie DeLey wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
you've clearly never mined before, have you?


Yeah, but then again, that might be why i can afford to spend 20m ISK when i want to pew.


What's your point? That it's difficult to make 20m ISK?


no, simply that you were wrong.

yes, isk is easy to make. no, it's not that easy.
Jurias
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#46 - 2012-11-13 16:57:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Jurias
Jack Miton wrote:
Bottom line is that by the time clone costs are anything even close to significant, you should have figured out how to make ISK.
ISK is so easy to make for anyone over, say, 20mil SP (clones are still dirt cheap) that this should never be an issue.

Clones are a good ISK sink and are fine as is.



We shall see how this holds over time. You fail to see that a 12 year old character doesn't automatically have the isk making potential to justify 100mil per loss simply by virtue of the number of SP he has. You also fail to acknowledge that the isk sink you refer too is targeted all wrong, by assuming that only higher SP chars have all the isk. isk sinks are necessary, but this clone business is all wrong and needs to be rebalanced as it has been in the past when it was getting silly last time.
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#47 - 2012-11-13 16:58:29 UTC
even my 90something million sp clone was dirt cheap

so i dont care
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#48 - 2012-11-13 17:01:19 UTC
Jurias wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:
Bottom line is that by the time clone costs are anything even close to significant, you should have figured out how to make ISK.
ISK is so easy to make for anyone over, say, 20mil SP (clones are still dirt cheap) that this should never be an issue.

Clones are a good ISK sink and are fine as is.



We shall see how this holds over time. You fail to see that a 12 year old character doesn't automatically have the isk making potential to justify 100mil per loss simply by virtue of the number of SP he has. You also fail to acknowledge that the isk sink you refer too is targeted all wrong, by assuming that only higher SP chars have all the isk. isk sinks are necessary, but this clone business is all wrong and needs to be rebalanced as it has been in the past when it was getting silly last time.


If you've been playing for that long (which you haven't, eve isn't even 12 years old - but whatever, lets use 5 years as an example) and can't afford 100m then you've done something incredibly wrong
Jurias
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#49 - 2012-11-13 17:01:48 UTC
Dave stark wrote:


no, simply that you were wrong.

yes, isk is easy to make. no, it's not that easy.


It amazes me how the people with very easy access to ISK simply reply that it's easy to make isk - what was that absurd figure from earlier - 20mil for mining 90 minutes in a 1 day old noobship? lol.

The point I am making is not just about the cost. It's about the imbalance and that fact that it will get worse over time. CCP already had to fix this once before but most of the people talking trash on this thread are too new to the game to remember, or realise the impact this has on players in less fortunate positions that themselves.

I know this thread is an easy place to wave your e-peen, but at least think about the arguments before you come to gain a +1 for yourself.
Jurias
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#50 - 2012-11-13 17:07:00 UTC
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
Jurias wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:
Bottom line is that by the time clone costs are anything even close to significant, you should have figured out how to make ISK.
ISK is so easy to make for anyone over, say, 20mil SP (clones are still dirt cheap) that this should never be an issue.

Clones are a good ISK sink and are fine as is.



We shall see how this holds over time. You fail to see that a 12 year old character doesn't automatically have the isk making potential to justify 100mil per loss simply by virtue of the number of SP he has. You also fail to acknowledge that the isk sink you refer too is targeted all wrong, by assuming that only higher SP chars have all the isk. isk sinks are necessary, but this clone business is all wrong and needs to be rebalanced as it has been in the past when it was getting silly last time.


If you've been playing for that long (which you haven't, eve isn't even 12 years old - but whatever, lets use 5 years as an example) and can't afford 100m then you've done something incredibly wrong


I was talking about future costs. Trust me this WILL change. It will HAVE to. It has happened before and it will happen again. No this isn't Battlestar Galactica - it's EVE Online. People will simply stop pvping (in null at least) with their mains the day it costs x to replace their clone - where x is a prohibitive number for that particular pilot.

What is your x? Pretend your x is 10 times mine if you want - that argument is irrelevant. The thread is about balance, not necessarily the price. I know EVE is a tough game which requires some intelligence to play, so you should understand the point.
Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
#51 - 2012-11-13 17:08:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Roll Sizzle Beef
Requires a change to implant slot implementation and clones not being tiered levels and readjust skills for specific implants.
Jump clone changes to a purchase of specific body. You no longer purchase a medical body that replaces you, but the body you currently inhabit.
Clones to hold any amount of SP.
Clone costs depending on slots provided.
+2s through +3s implants need appropriate cybernetic skills 2 or 3
skill changes to hardwires seem minimal as they seem to have appropriate skill levels for the % given.
low-grade t2 to lvl 4
normal grade t2 to lvl 5

Compact clone naming conventions to that of implants.
low-name < low-name+ < name < name+
+ with drug booster slots leaves drug clones to a possible price hike over other sets if and when they re-vamp boosters.

Alpha free clone. holds 2m sp no slots. only Booster slot 4
Beta holds any amount after 2m SP .5m isk no implant slots. no Booster slots
Beta+, same as Beta, 1m, but has booster slots.

low-gamma lvl 1 cybernetic implants. 1-5 slots. no booster 2m
low-gamma+ with boosters 3m
low-delta lvl 2 cybernetic implants. 1-5 slots. no booster 4m
low-delta+ 5m
low-epsilon lvl 3 cybernetic implants. 1-5 slots. no booster 6m
low-epsilon+ 7m
low-zeta lvl 4 cybernetic implants. 1-5 slots. no booster 8m
low-zeta+ 9m
low-eta lvl 5 cybernetic implants. 1-5 slots. no booster 10m
low-eta+ 11m

gamma lvl 1 cybernetic implants. 1-10 slots. no booster 6m
gamma+ 7m
delta lvl 2 cybernetic implants. 1-10 slots. no booster 8m
delta+ 9m
epsilon lvl 3 cybernetic implants. 1-10 slots. no booster 10m
epsilon+ 11m
zeta lvl 4 cybernetic implants. 1-10 slots. no booster 12m
zeta+ 13m
eta lvl 5 cybernetic implants. 1-10 slots. no booster 14m
eta+ 15m

Still have to update clone after death or suffer SP loss, but now its utilitarian.
Slightly harsher start, but overall way cheaper unless you want an advantage in implants.
Full implants and hardwires will suffer a loss equal to that of 50m-70m SP player. Any non slot loss will be about a 10m SP player.
Dave stark
#52 - 2012-11-13 17:12:15 UTC
Jurias wrote:
Dave stark wrote:


no, simply that you were wrong.

yes, isk is easy to make. no, it's not that easy.


It amazes me how the people with very easy access to ISK simply reply that it's easy to make isk - what was that absurd figure from earlier - 20mil for mining 90 minutes in a 1 day old noobship? lol.

The point I am making is not just about the cost. It's about the imbalance and that fact that it will get worse over time. CCP already had to fix this once before but most of the people talking trash on this thread are too new to the game to remember, or realise the impact this has on players in less fortunate positions that themselves.

I know this thread is an easy place to wave your e-peen, but at least think about the arguments before you come to gain a +1 for yourself.


there's a difference between correcting incorrect information, and **** waving.
Jurias
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#53 - 2012-11-13 17:14:39 UTC
Dave stark wrote:


there's a difference between correcting incorrect information, and **** waving.


I was agreeing with you. The rest of my post was in response to the previous posts.
Demolishar
United Aggression
#54 - 2012-11-13 17:25:43 UTC
This is like driving a Lambo then complaining about the fuel consumption.
Othran
Route One
#55 - 2012-11-13 17:31:22 UTC
Clone costs definitely put people off anything other than blob/safe PvP.

I'm not exactly poor but if I want to go for a casual solo wander in null with some cheap crap that's lying around then I certainly don't use Othran, who costs 20mill+ a pop for clones before ship costs etc. I'll use a low-skilled alt for that and the reason is simply clone costs.

Fair enough, Othran can do a wide range of "PvP tasks" so clone cost is the price you pay to a certain extent.

However plenty of people don't have multiple accounts/characters which they can use as an alt. Plenty of people have fairly high SP characters but no PvP experience and understandably they aren't too keen on coughing up 10-20mill/pod while they learn.

It has an effect on PvP for sure.
Mirima Thurander
#56 - 2012-11-13 17:58:20 UTC
Yea clones costs do keep me from using some of my older accounts to bumble about and do fun things in but that's why I have alts.

I would like cheaper clones. But we need the isk sinks.

All automated intel should be removed from the game including Instant local/jumps/kills/cynos for all systems/regions.Eve should report nothing like this to the client/3rd party software.Intel should not be force fed to players. Player skill and iniative should be the sources of intel.
Othran
Route One
#57 - 2012-11-13 18:12:55 UTC
Mirima Thurander wrote:
Yea clones costs do keep me from using some of my older accounts to bumble about and do fun things in but that's why I have alts.

I would like cheaper clones. But we need the isk sinks.



I doubt clone activation costs are anything other than trivial in the overall scheme of things.

If you want an isk sink then fees for removing/refitting implants* would get rid of a lot more iskies than clone activations.

My only gripe about the clone costs is that it makes solo/very small T1 frigate/dessie/cruiser gangs pointless in null as there's a high probability that if the ship dies then the pod dies. No point in flying a ship that costs lots less than the pod if there's something more capable (eg T2 frigates) which is more likely to prevent the pod loss. There needs to be some balance there.

There's lots of moaning about why people "don't PvP". Clone cost is a reason, especially when you're learning.


*I'm sure something suitable could be worked out on implants so removal meant they were bound to your character and had a reduced lifespan
Sointu Luonnotar
Doomheim
#58 - 2012-11-13 18:16:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Sointu Luonnotar
Mirima Thurander wrote:
Yea clones costs do keep me from using some of my older accounts to bumble about and do fun things in but that's why I have alts.

I would like cheaper clones. But we need the isk sinks.




Well clearly the isk sinks aren't working if even you aren't willing to pew pew with your more expensive clones.

The problem isn't that ISK is hard to make - it's not - it is that it takes a lot of time. For people who work, have a family, etc. this equals to maybe an hour or two of gametime, three-to-four at best. I don't know about you, but even with the absolute best skills and best ship for blowing through lvl4's and assuming mission gods are merciful with good missions - I can make about 20 million ISK an hour.
With my current skillpoints this means I have to pve 2 hours just to cover my clone cost, and additional 2-10 depending on how good implants and modules I want to use. Obviously I want maximum life expectancy so best the money can buy, ship, module and implant wise, maybe even some combat boosters. So suddenly, for an hour or two of PVP I would have had to PvE for 12-20 hours.

Now of course, I don't have an alt that could double my isk/hr through salvage, so my money making is obviously gimped. However, this is supposed to be a sandbox and therefore I should be allowed to play this game without using a "mandatory" alt.

TL;DR if we want people to PVP more we have to make money a non-issue in regards to PVP.
Jurias
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#59 - 2012-11-13 18:17:20 UTC
Othran wrote:
Clone costs definitely put people off anything other than blob/safe PvP.

I'm not exactly poor but if I want to go for a casual solo wander in null with some cheap crap that's lying around then I certainly don't use Othran, who costs 20mill+ a pop for clones before ship costs etc. I'll use a low-skilled alt for that and the reason is simply clone costs.

Fair enough, Othran can do a wide range of "PvP tasks" so clone cost is the price you pay to a certain extent.

However plenty of people don't have multiple accounts/characters which they can use as an alt. Plenty of people have fairly high SP characters but no PvP experience and understandably they aren't too keen on coughing up 10-20mill/pod while they learn.

It has an effect on PvP for sure.


Extremely good points I didn't even think of!
fukier
Gallente Federation
#60 - 2012-11-13 18:20:44 UTC  |  Edited by: fukier
i would prefer a metric where as an eve player you can make your own clones...

that way clone prices would be dynamic and market based...
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.