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Production in null - worthwile?

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Warp Planet6
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2012-11-13 08:42:41 UTC
So guys, I am going to re-adjust my income in null since hunting down NPCs is pretty boring. I thought about a more "passive" or long-term income and I think production could suit my desires.

I was wondering how much more worthwile production in nullsec is or could be and want to hear your opinions. Which items are produced with profit (besides capitals) and why are they more profitable when manufactured in null?

Thanks for your hints!

WP6
GallowsCalibrator
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2012-11-13 09:45:22 UTC
Production in null is generally pretty stupid unless you're building supercaps due to mineral concerns and massive lack of manufacturing slots. Much easier to just build in hisec and export to null.
Warp Planet6
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2012-11-13 10:21:03 UTC
Shocked

Well, manufacturing slots are en masse available where I live. Your point in minerals might be a reason for that, don't know. I really thought there is any advantage of producing in null. In fact, I thought null would be the best choice in any way when it comes to production locations....

No I am really disappointed Sad
Irya Boone
The Scope
#4 - 2012-11-13 10:44:44 UTC
interresting only if you are in a big alliance with a LOt of blue

CCP it's time to remove Off Grid Boost and Put Them on Killmail too, add Logi on killmails .... Open that damn door !!

you shall all bow and pray BoB
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#5 - 2012-11-13 10:51:27 UTC
Warp Planet6 wrote:
Shocked

Well, manufacturing slots are en masse available where I live. Your point in minerals might be a reason for that, don't know. I really thought there is any advantage of producing in null. In fact, I thought null would be the best choice in any way when it comes to production locations....

No I am really disappointed Sad


Theoretically, manufacturing in NPC null should be at least as good as Empire, but strangely, even though mining in nullsec is apparently safer than in hi-sec, no one seems to mine in NPC 0.0 despite all those big empty belts full of all kinds of ores. So without minerals, it's difficult.

I suggest forming a mining corp and leading a few of the more timid hi-sec miners who can't stand the danger levels of The Forge or Kor-Azor and setting up shop in, let's say, Curse. That should get you a good supply of minerals. HLW- has 7 or 8 stations if I recall correctly, and rarely more than a dozen people in local, so you should have plenty of manufacturing, refining and researching facilities to use.

It's only 2 jumps from the mission hub in G-0Q, so you'll get plenty of customers!

PS Tell Darkside I said "hi" if you see them,

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2012-11-13 11:01:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Vera Algaert
GallowsCalibrator wrote:
Production in null is generally pretty stupid unless you're building supercaps due to mineral concerns and massive lack of manufacturing slots. Much easier to just build in hisec and export to null.

in my experience most t1 ships are assembled in 0.0 - importing them from high-sec would be prohibitive in terms of effort and fuel cost.

One jumpfreighter can carry at most seven packaged battleships but it can carry the compressed minerals for more than 50 of them.

The only way the war machine can be kept going is through 0.0-based manufacturing.

.
Random Majere
Rogue Fleet
#7 - 2012-11-13 12:20:13 UTC
GallowsCalibrator wrote:
Production in null is generally pretty stupid unless you're building supercaps due to mineral concerns and massive lack of manufacturing slots. Much easier to just build in hisec and export to null.


Well you guys just conquered a lot of manufacturing stations in Tribute. Should have "reduced" the problem for you guys. Right?
Tikera Tissant
#8 - 2012-11-13 12:44:26 UTC
There are several reasons why mining and manufacturing in null is very limited.

Unless you are based in an alliance with enough blue and enough local protection, your fleet will get jumped on and you will lose your mining ships at some point by pirates of people who just don't like you.
And going into a safe spot every time a non-blue appears in local, is just waisting your time.

Also, there is always a shortage of some type of mineral you need in NPC space, so you are not fully efficient, and getting the missing mineral from hi-sec or other local hubs can cost quite a lot sometimes, and is not without risks.


Alliances who manufacture for war, usually do so in the deep parts of null, where they get all the minerals they need, with heavy defense. From there they usually use their jump network to get the gear spread around if need be.
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#9 - 2012-11-13 12:58:43 UTC
Depends on your region really. There are busy regions and there are quiet regions. In busy regions you won't be able to mine/rat much since you'll be roamed/cloaky camped all the time. In quiet regions you can mine and rat all you want, and thus it's much easier to set up industry. The problem is that in busy regions there is high demand for ships and things due to losses, whereas in quiet regions not so much.

The ideal of course is to build stuff in quiet regions and have it shipped to stations in busy regions...
Warp Planet6
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2012-11-13 13:25:48 UTC
So there is no point in 0.0 production that gives me an advantage (i.e. build time, minerals needed etc.) over guys who produce in higher security systems? Hmm alrighty then, looks like I was too early too happy about the many free production slots then Lol
Ze'jira Penshar
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2012-11-13 13:52:39 UTC
Sure it is!

If you have an alliance, a blob fleet, a few industrial corps, a few POSs, Outposts, super caps, trillions of isk, a financier, a real world accounting firm....
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2012-11-13 14:13:45 UTC
Vera Algaert wrote:
GallowsCalibrator wrote:
Production in null is generally pretty stupid unless you're building supercaps due to mineral concerns and massive lack of manufacturing slots. Much easier to just build in hisec and export to null.

in my experience most t1 ships are assembled in 0.0 - importing them from high-sec would be prohibitive in terms of effort and fuel cost.

One jumpfreighter can carry at most seven packaged battleships but it can carry the compressed minerals for more than 50 of them.

The only way the war machine can be kept going is through 0.0-based manufacturing.


you are wrong

90++% of all ships are produced in highsec, bought in highsec and then transported to nullsec.

don't forget that you can't do reasonable reprocessing at an amarr outpost and no reasonable production at a minmatar outpost
Dar Manic
Dirt Road Services
#13 - 2012-11-13 14:15:16 UTC
Warp Planet6 wrote:
So guys, I am going to re-adjust my income in null since hunting down NPCs is pretty boring. I thought about a more "passive" or long-term income and I think production could suit my desires.

I was wondering how much more worthwile production in nullsec is or could be and want to hear your opinions. Which items are produced with profit (besides capitals) and why are they more profitable when manufactured in null?

Thanks for your hints!

WP6


Stealth nerf hi-sec / buff null-sec thread.

4/10 though

I just don't understand null sec players.

**Please note: **Anytime I use the phrase PvP in a post, I'm talking about shooting/combat/killing things/blowing things up. Thank you.
Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2012-11-13 14:53:37 UTC
Gilbaron wrote:
don't forget that you can't do reasonable reprocessing at an amarr outpost and no reasonable production at a minmatar outpost

XUW-3X - Minmatar Refinery
ZTS-4D - Amarr Factory (1 jump)
ZUE-NS - Amarr Factory (2 jumps)

PXF-RF - Minmatar Refinery
9DQW-W - Amarr Factory (1 jump)

F-88PJ - Minmatar Refinery
1-5GBW - Amarr Factory (1 jump)

BYXF-Q - Minmatar Refinery
C-C99Z - Amarr Factory (1 jump)

U-SOH2 - Minmatar Refinery
DBRN-Z - Amarr Factory (1 jump)
L-1SW8 - Amarr Factory (1 jump)
H-NPXW - Amarr Factory (2 jumps)
6F-H3W - Amarr Factory (3 jumps)

... and that's just Fountain.

.
Warp Planet6
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2012-11-13 14:53:43 UTC
Ze'jira Penshar wrote:
Sure it is!

If you have an alliance, a blob fleet, a few industrial corps, a few POSs, Outposts, super caps, trillions of isk, a financier, a real world accounting firm....



Must pass here. Ugh
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#16 - 2012-11-13 14:59:26 UTC
Vera Algaert wrote:
Gilbaron wrote:
don't forget that you can't do reasonable reprocessing at an amarr outpost and no reasonable production at a minmatar outpost

XUW-3X - Minmatar Refinery
ZTS-4D - Amarr Factory (1 jump)
ZUE-NS - Amarr Factory (2 jumps)

PXF-RF - Minmatar Refinery
9DQW-W - Amarr Factory (1 jump)

F-88PJ - Minmatar Refinery
1-5GBW - Amarr Factory (1 jump)

BYXF-Q - Minmatar Refinery
C-C99Z - Amarr Factory (1 jump)

U-SOH2 - Minmatar Refinery
DBRN-Z - Amarr Factory (1 jump)
L-1SW8 - Amarr Factory (1 jump)
H-NPXW - Amarr Factory (2 jumps)
6F-H3W - Amarr Factory (3 jumps)

... and that's just Fountain.


That's over half as many stations as Nonni (in the Lonetrek Region) has!

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2012-11-13 15:06:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Vera Algaert
Malcanis wrote:
That's over half as many stations as Nonni (in the Lonetrek Region) has!

So you are telling me that you would rather do 30 jumpfreighter runs to import the 200 Maelstroms or Rokhs you need for a CTA?

From the discussion I witnessed when TEST considered instituting refinery taxes (no idea if they went through with it or not) I got the impression that this is not how their industrialists actually work. They seemed to be pretty butthurt because they build most T1 hulls from compressed minerals in 0.0.

.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#18 - 2012-11-13 15:11:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Malcanis wrote:
That's over half as many stations as Nonni (in the Lonetrek Region) has!
To be fair, Nonni is downright absurd…

…but it still kind of shows the general problem. Let's dig out those numbers again:

Jita (a single system) has 300 slots.
Sobaseki (one jump away) has 250 slots.
Nonni (another five jumps) has 750 slots.
Lonetrek as a whole has 12,600 slots.

Tribute as whole has 497 regular production slots.
Vera Algaert wrote:
So you are telling me that you would rather do 30 jumpfreighter runs to import the 200 Maelstroms or Rokhs you need for a CTA?
Yes, because those runs can be done in parallel and get everything those 200 battleships in place in 5 hours flat (as in, 5h between the first mineral purchase until 200 pilots sit in their new ships), and when they get blown up, the next 200 are just 5 hours away — a parallelism and ease of consolidation that can't happen if you have to either spread you work out over half a region or wait five times as long.
Rordan D'Kherr
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#19 - 2012-11-13 15:25:22 UTC
Tippia wrote:

Lonetrek as a whole has 12,600 slots.
Tribute as whole has 497 regular production slots.


uhh interesting numbers. Is there any source to compare systems / regions?

Don't be scared, because being afk is not a crime.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#20 - 2012-11-13 16:04:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Rordan D'Kherr wrote:
uhh interesting numbers. Is there any source to compare systems / regions?
You can use the data dump to get numbers for the NPC stations. For player-owned ones, you simply have to ask the owner or go there and spai a bit.

I couldn't be bothered with either, so I just did a quick totting up on dotlan and used stats posted on Something Awful.


edit: …and in fact, having looked at it, the number for Lonetrek isn't quite that high — by the looks of it, it includes stations that have any kind of S&I service, not necessarily production slots.

That said, I am now very curious why highsec stations have completely separate set of station services than low and nullsec stations. By this I mean that the production service for a highsec station has one ID and a very telling name (Station 0.5+ Manufacturing) whereas all other stations have a separate service ID with a different name (Station Manufacturing).
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