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War Dec Mechanics overhaul?

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Thorvik
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2012-11-02 21:45:46 UTC
Quote:
alliance hopping to avoid wars is not allowed
reported by CCP Wrangler | 2008.01.10 16:32:33
Presently, there is a loophole that some corporations are using to avoid wars that have been declared on them. As soon as a war has been declared on the corporation, they join an alliance and, once admitted, they immediately leave the alliance again. The result is that they are only involved in an active war for 24 hours and not a week as should be the case according to normal war game-play mechanics. Bogus alliances have even been created for the sole purpose of giving corps a way out of wars.
This is an unintended game mechanic and it will be fixed as soon as possible. Until then we are putting a stop to this situation and anyone found abusing this loophole will receive a warning for their trouble. Repeated offenses of this nature may also result in a ban.


This was posted in the Assembly Hall and likely should have been posted here:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1969901

I like having multiple thousands of new targets, but the war dec mechanics do not allow for the original intent to be conveyed, which was, in our case the permission to shoot an entity that has POCOs in a system that they do not inhabit. While they can now drop the war dec, we are now in a forever war with people we don't really care about. Extra targets is always good, but the intent of the war dec is now completely lost in an exploit.

Dec Shield [DECKT] is a mechanic exploit that should not exist.
meow meowchicken
Perkone
Caldari State
#2 - 2012-11-02 21:54:17 UTC
If it is not an exploit I would like and explaination as to why.
Thorvik
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2012-11-02 21:58:31 UTC
heh,

Now all wars that Dec Shield now hold are at war with a dead corporation... It getting more and more ****** up.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2130728#post2130728

Quote:
So a new variation of exploit based on dead corporations:

1.) Get a dead corporation into alliance
2.) Have all the wars set mutual in the alliance
3.) Boot dead corp from alliance
4.) Laugh maniacally as everyone is now trapped in mutual outgoing wars against a dead corporation

There is no escape, there is no way to reason or talk your way out of it. You are literally screwed forever and no one but GMs can help you. As of writing this, all 169 wars we're in are at war with a dead corporation, you cannot be set free, ever.
Brib Vogt
Doomheim
#4 - 2012-11-03 02:37:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Brib Vogt
After explaining the exploit to a GM he responded:

*snip*

Thank you GM Bunyip, you should try to play this game!

EDIT: Posting of correspondence from GM's or other CCP staff is not permitted on these forums - ISD Type40.

So what GM Bunyip was saying: If you want ot end a war you can allways screw your alliance and start a new one.

Thank you ISD TYPE40 to even delete a whole post from this thread. CCP ****** up bigtime but is not men enough to say it.
meow meowchicken
Perkone
Caldari State
#5 - 2012-11-03 03:05:56 UTC
ccp fail
JP Nakamura
Union of Intergalactic Miners and Nano Assemblers
#6 - 2012-11-03 04:55:52 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD TYPE40
*snip*


You're joking, right? That's just a rediculous response, especially from a GM.

EDIT: Removed quote of GM correspondence as it is against forum rules - ISD Type40.

CCP: 10+ years of Harvesting players Tears  (latest efforts being Source Limited Edition, and Alliance Logo Revised Policies)
meow meowchicken
Perkone
Caldari State
#7 - 2012-11-03 05:10:46 UTC  |  Edited by: meow meowchicken
The next response will be sure we can takecare of that for you it will only cost you one eve monocle
Musiaba Schenoly
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2012-11-03 10:09:53 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Suvetar
erased
ISD TYPE40
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#9 - 2012-11-03 20:36:59 UTC
GM correspondence has been removed as per forum rules.


Forum Rules wrote:


9. Private communication between the Game Masters, Eve Team members, moderators and administrators of the forum and the forum users is not to be made public on these forums or by any other venue.

You are not permitted to publicize any private correspondence (including petitions) received from any of the aforementioned.



For a list of Forum Rules, please see here - ISD Type40.

[b]ISD Type40 Lt. Commander Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department[/b]
Brib Vogt
Doomheim
#10 - 2012-11-03 22:53:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Brib Vogt
Where is the post from musiaba. I fully agreed with it.

Maybe the admin who deleted it should write it instead of censoring it secretly.

Childish!
usrevenge
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2012-11-04 04:27:21 UTC
if you wardec someone in highsec and you get trapped it's your fault for initiating a wardec against a smart target, plus now, you got what you wanted, free war targets... oh wait, you probably wanted to grief newbies instead of actually fight?
enjoy the perma dec.
Musiaba Schenoly
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2012-11-04 05:59:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Musiaba Schenoly
usrevenge wrote:
if you wardec someone in highsec and you get trapped it's your fault for initiating a wardec against a smart target, plus now, you got what you wanted, free war targets... oh wait, you probably wanted to grief newbies instead of actually fight?
enjoy the perma dec.


there are more than such reasons you foretell to dec someone:

Defence against canflippers, retribution for ganks and so on (for example https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2108507#post2108507)

AND
such behavior is part of life like the eve sandbox, sadly but true... so to deal with it in the sandbox should be part of the challenge of the game.

Every corp with outgoing dec shield wars gets now mutual wars vs entitys with 0 ppl in it ( https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2130728#post2130728) and hundrets of ppl try to hide of the 10k pvpers trapped in dec shield. With full gamemechanic consequences. So there is no reason to find such behavior smart or fair, I guess
Musiaba Schenoly
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2012-11-04 06:17:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Musiaba Schenoly
Brib Vogt wrote:
Where is the post from musiaba. I fully agreed with it.

Maybe the admin who deleted it should write it instead of censoring it secretly.

Childish!


thx, It was a compiled (bit ironic, tho) list of consequenes of current wd-mechanic - no ranting or such.
Because of forseeable missunderstandings of the problem we re discussing here, in this way important I assume tho.
usrevange's post which reflects a moral - not game mechanical point of view, I think, may be an indication for it.
so I ll post it again, ofc cleaned of the gm quotes now:


ccp states, its clear there may be NO exploit!
Mercs and new ally-system are not needed anymore, gj! Evil

Just copy your war!

Perhaps make it mutual and transfer it - to a dead corp or a fake alliance like dec shield - wherever you like!

And the evil evil evil highsec griefers - ccp may ban 'em, hello kitty will prevail! - are stucked in an infinite war.

Who needs a working sandbox, if you can trap them like that?

You wd someone with something more than an one-man-and-his-alt corp? Fail!

Forever no highsec logistics, no incursions with organized fleets anymore.
You want to join a new alliance? Oh sry - its gamemechanically impossible! Because you have an MUTUAL outgoing war to someone, who get it from someone - who copied it from someone you never have seen or known! What you are complaining? You will get some notifications every day!

An alliance with dec shields wars tries to recruit you and you haven't already outgoing wars?
You could have such a fine and long war history (one or two wars may result in no kills and no losses, or even more than one or two? But don't care you are a fine pvp-corp) - just join!
Ofc it will be your last alliance!

Oh, what about joining any other alliance?
You should be true - it could be your last again!
Although they aren't already in dec shields wars:
They got problems with you and want to make you never ever join another alliance?
Np, they could dec an alt-corp, which makes the war mutual to boot you then, the alt-corp could set the resulting war mutual to the booted corp and surrender to the alliance!
( https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2099149#post2099149)

And ALL this is NOT griefplay?
Don't care what the initiator of dec shield may tell us here https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1957430 !


But nvm! everything works like intended: Big smile
It may be the isk-sink everybody demands - finally, yay!

Because everytime you decced someone or want something to do like discribed, the solution is soo easy (dunno who adviseed it anymore but makes sense in this context)

you can always disband the corporation and reform a new one.

Ofc that wouldn't be corp-hopping to avoid wars, what was already addressed in the past somehow.

That all may seem a little bit complicated or even strange, but perhaps ccp could make an addon in the remote future, what advances highsec war mechanic ...oh wait.
Nymeria Wolff
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2012-11-04 06:25:35 UTC
im glad we are more concerned with GM quotes being posted on the forums more than we are with obvious game mechanic abuse! Great form!
Nir Trild
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2012-11-05 11:27:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Nir Trild
I want to point to the following thread:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=156437

Already there is discribed how really broken the current war dec system is:

Copying wars without the ally-system, even to death etities.
Trapping corps and allys in MUTUAL wars with enemies they never known before.
Spamming their war history to death.
Blocking alliance joining forever.

And so on, to presenting "exploid of the day":

The Zerg Overmind wrote:
Exploit of the day:

Building off the previous bug of allowing dead corporations into alliance, apparently you can make identical copies of those corporations at the same time.

Step 1.) Make a corporation
Step 2.) Apply to join alliance
Step 3.) Alliance hits accept on your application
Step 4.) Disband the corporation
Step 5.) Reform the corporation with identical name, ticker, etc
Step 6.) Repeat steps 2-5 as many times as desired
Step 7.) Enjoy your clones

The test corp used was "Unstable Mitosis [XPLTR]" founded by "The Cloner"

http://mobileinfantry.free.fr/pics/would-you-like-to-know-more.jpg


All this needs to be fixed immedeatly!

Proposeals may many made also here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=157449

But what about making wars mutual means both were aggressors or taking devided war dec fee from both and so on - such fixes seem so easy to implement.

The mutual state of war is a great feature in recent form but it shouldn't be possible to abuse it that dramatic way like dec shield (and other) propagandize it.
Musiaba Schenoly
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2012-11-05 12:07:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Musiaba Schenoly
Nir Trild wrote:
And so on, to presenting "exploid of the day":

The Zerg Overmind wrote:
Exploit of the day:

Building off the previous bug of allowing dead corporations into alliance, apparently you can make identical copies of those corporations at the same time.

Step 1.) Make a corporation
Step 2.) Apply to join alliance
Step 3.) Alliance hits accept on your application
Step 4.) Disband the corporation
Step 5.) Reform the corporation with identical name, ticker, etc
Step 6.) Repeat steps 2-5 as many times as desired
Step 7.) Enjoy your clones

The test corp used was "Unstable Mitosis [XPLTR]" founded by "The Cloner"

http://mobileinfantry.free.fr/pics/would-you-like-to-know-more.jpg


All this needs to be fixed immedeatly!.


current wd system is turning into a joke *sick* our hisec-ppl start to laugh about pointless notification-spam too ...and started playing WoT Sad


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2139343#post2139343

The Zerg Overmind wrote:
We're always looking for new wars. Now with new war baiting strategies:

Step 1.) Build a 1 man corp that has tower anchoring rights in empire
Step 2.) Place a tower in a highly desired system
Step 3.) Anchor many labs and hardeners at the tower
Step 4.) Turn the tower offline
Step 5.) Wait to be wardecced by people wanting to steal the labs
Step 6.) Turn on force field and hardeners, unanchor and scoop labs, apply to join Dec Shield
Step 7.) Leave Dec Shield, wait for wars to cool off, repeat process
Step 8.) Tears


Benny Ohu wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
If people start doing this, the whole thing will get ridiculous real fast.

my computer hung loading dec shield's war history
Thorvik
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2012-11-05 17:28:42 UTC
usrevenge wrote:
if you wardec someone in high-sec and you get trapped it's your fault for initiating a wardec against a smart target, plus now, you got what you wanted, free war targets... oh wait, you probably wanted to grief newbies instead of actually fight?
enjoy the perma dec.


We decced someone in low sec so that we could start taking down POCOs in systems that they did not inhabit but collected taxes from. We have no issue with anyone putting up POCOs in systems but if you are going to collect taxes on them, then you better be there to protect them. In an effort to not mess up some of our member's sec status, we wanted to legitimize the aggressive actions so we decced the alliance.

They used a broken mechanic to hide from our war dec so that now we are in a forever war.

I don't really mind as I like having more targets but some of our younger members are a bit nervous about flying around high-sec. They'll get over it.

Doesn't change the fact that the mechanic is flawed and should be fixed.

Though funny enough. We, apparently, have over 10,000 war targets flying around somewhere. I was on-line for 6 hours this past Friday night and, other than FW targets, we didn't see any WTs in any of the Minmatar/Amarr FW area. I have to say I was a bit disappointed. Big smile
Thorvik
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2012-11-05 17:31:03 UTC
On another note, I'm getting annoyed at the 20 war notifications we seem to be getting on a daily basis. We should be able to filter the spam and send it directly to the trash
Musiaba Schenoly
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2012-11-06 04:56:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Musiaba Schenoly
Thorvik wrote:
heh,

Now all wars that Dec Shield now hold are at war with a dead corporation... It getting more and more ****** up.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2130728#post2130728

Quote:
So a new variation of exploit based on dead corporations:

1.) Get a dead corporation into alliance
2.) Have all the wars set mutual in the alliance
3.) Boot dead corp from alliance
4.) Laugh maniacally as everyone is now trapped in mutual outgoing wars against a dead corporation

There is no escape, there is no way to reason or talk your way out of it. You are literally screwed forever and no one but GMs can help you. As of writing this, all 169 wars we're in are at war with a dead corporation, you cannot be set free, ever.



ya, that seems the major issue to me (+some minor issues):

An entity can set a war to mutual which was even not orginally decced.

That cant be intended, because allies were kicked off a war as soon its set to mutual afaik, because mutual should be an 1vs1 Devs said announcing Inferno-addon.

But this way you can copy the war to an allie who can set it mutual then - or park it in such pointless corp to block someone or reactivate it copying someday to whomever or wherever you like.