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Crime & Punishment

 
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Dec Shield - End of the Second Era

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The Zerg Overmind
Rule Reversal
#321 - 2012-11-01 19:46:45 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Because I'm stupid, could I get a clarification, please:

Can mutual wars be made non-mutual by the defender at any time? I thought once a war was made mutual, it would always remain mutual, i.e. if you threw the mutual switch, the switch would then break-off in your hand.

Or is a corp leaving an alliance considered a special event that changes alliance mutual wars to non-mutual (regular) corp wars?

Or does this only apply to wars the corp absorbed from the alliance, because it wasn't their war to begin with before they joined the alliance?

[Geez, for a "simple" mechanic it sure seems to be complicated.]

I've never encountered any problems with toggling wars mutual or unmutual at any time. I remember old rumors that you weren't supposed to be able to toggle flip it back and forth constantly, or any time past the first 24hrs or something, but that doesn't seem to affect us if it's ingame at all. It's also possible that the act of joining/leaving the alliance creates a "new war" which then lets you toggle the switch again without any cooldowns created in the "previous" copy of the war.

Corps leaving the alliance have to manually toggle the wars to non-mutual, all 166 of them, lol. Make sure you use the drop down menu on the right side of the wardec interface though, the right click option doesn't work at all:
http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/1210/togglingUnmutual.jpg



Burn Highsec Griefers
The Zerg Overmind
Rule Reversal
#322 - 2012-11-02 09:26:46 UTC
It saddens me to bring you this news, but Dark Tide Federation alliance just disbanded to get out of war. But their member corps are still stuck with the wars, so they can't use these corps to join a new alliance.

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/alliance/Dark_Tide_Federation/corporations

Their CEO was pleasant, and I regret doing this to them, but I couldn't make any exceptions. These mechanics really need to be fixed

Burn Highsec Griefers
Kaanchana
Tax-haven
#323 - 2012-11-02 15:24:02 UTC
Just out of interest, will you let anyone join the corp as an individual? Any rules or payments etc?

And is there a place where i can see what are the corps/alliances trapped in war? (an out of game list)
Crystal Kane
Perkone
Caldari State
#324 - 2012-11-02 17:00:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Crystal Kane
The Zerg Overmind wrote:
It saddens me to bring you this news, but Dark Tide Federation alliance just disbanded to get out of war. But their member corps are still stuck with the wars, so they can't use these corps to join a new alliance.

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/alliance/Dark_Tide_Federation/corporations

Their CEO was pleasant, and I regret doing this to them, but I couldn't make any exceptions. These mechanics really need to be fixed


I am/was a member of Dark Tide Federation of which you mention. The corp that joined you guys was a griefer corp targeting our mining ops for can flipping so we decided to dec them. Legitimate in my opinion.

Do you have any systems in place for other griefer corps not exploiting your exploitation? :P

Sometimes HS wars happen for good reason. And our corporation/alliance has a very similar mindset regarding griefers.
William M Gibson
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#325 - 2012-11-02 17:36:14 UTC  |  Edited by: William M Gibson
The Zerg Overmind wrote:
It saddens me to bring you this news, but Dark Tide Federation alliance just disbanded to get out of war. But their member corps are still stuck with the wars, so they can't use these corps to join a new alliance.

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/alliance/Dark_Tide_Federation/corporations

Their CEO was pleasant, and I regret doing this to them, but I couldn't make any exceptions. These mechanics really need to be fixed



Indeed, it is quite regettable...But I do not condone his actions, the mechanic is clearly broken and needs to be fixed. At this time however I must reform the entire alliance to escape this...He has his plans, and I have my own. I wish you luck in fixing this mechanic ZO. You run a good cause, and while some innocents do get trapped in the crossfire there'll be good changes to follow once this ends.

DTF will rise again.

o7
JustAnotherPlaceHolder
Content Providers
#326 - 2012-11-02 19:08:15 UTC  |  Edited by: JustAnotherPlaceHolder
The Zerg Overmind wrote:
It saddens me to bring you this news, but Dark Tide Federation alliance just disbanded to get out of war. But their member corps are still stuck with the wars, so they can't use these corps to join a new alliance.

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/alliance/Dark_Tide_Federation/corporations

Their CEO was pleasant, and I regret doing this to them, but I couldn't make any exceptions. These mechanics really need to be fixed

Your crusade, while admirable, has one possible flaw: What if CCP doesn't change the mechanics? Do you have a plan for that?

Also, we'll (you guys and my corp) will be testing a new twist in all this. The corp we decced surrendered to us, but then joined your shield. We got the mail indicating we'd be decced in 24hrs, but the first war will end before that. I'm assuming we'll get drawn in anyway, but this will be an interesting test of this particular "bug"

Did CCP put any play testing into the new war dec mechanic? Clearly not.

edit: also, for those of you using this as a target hunting opportunity, the corp Barnim Libertines [BARLI] has an offline POS in Inari if you're looking for something to do (though I imagine you'd have to be desperate).
The Zerg Overmind
Rule Reversal
#327 - 2012-11-02 19:48:12 UTC  |  Edited by: The Zerg Overmind
JustAnotherPlaceHolder wrote:
The Zerg Overmind wrote:
It saddens me to bring you this news, but Dark Tide Federation alliance just disbanded to get out of war. But their member corps are still stuck with the wars, so they can't use these corps to join a new alliance.

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/alliance/Dark_Tide_Federation/corporations

Their CEO was pleasant, and I regret doing this to them, but I couldn't make any exceptions. These mechanics really need to be fixed

Your crusade, while admirable, has one possible flaw: What if CCP doesn't change the mechanics? Do you have a plan for that?

Also, we'll (you guys and my corp) will be testing a new twist in all this. The corp we decced surrendered to us, but then joined your shield. We got the mail indicating we'd be decced in 24hrs, but the first war will end before that. I'm assuming we'll get drawn in anyway, but this will be an interesting test of this particular "bug"

Did CCP put any play testing into the new war dec mechanic? Clearly not.

edit: also, for those of you using this as a target hunting opportunity, the corp Barnim Libertines [BARLI] has an offline POS in Inari if you're looking for something to do (though I imagine you'd have to be desperate).

Ya I just noticed this. So it sent you an email saying your war target was joining an alliance? Because if so that's new, and one of our proposed changes. If they ended the war before I hit accept on their application the war won't even register against Dec Shield.

I believe it's even possible to be at war with corporations in an alliance without being at war with the alliance, for up to 24hrs, if the war starts to end right before they join the alliance. I know I've seen it before, but can't remember the exact mechanics to reproduce it off the top of my head.

Edit: If CCP changes mechanics to stop this that doesn't ruin anything. That IS our goal here. Dec Shield has only ever been around to demonstrate loopholes in wardec mechanics. If there are no more loopholes and everything gets fixed then our mission is accomplished and everyone can celebrate.

Burn Highsec Griefers
The Zerg Overmind
Rule Reversal
#328 - 2012-11-02 20:01:13 UTC
Okay, so new wardec exploit I just pieced together:

A few days ago we discovered how to get dead corps into alliances (corp applies to alliance, alliance accepts app, disband corp, corp then joins the alliance with 0 players). When you boot that corp from the alliance it gets copies of all the current wars, and they're all mutual against a dead corp. It is literally impossible now to ever set anyone free again because I can't access that corp.

In this way you can hold all wars permanent against dead corps without actually spending any characters to hold them prisoner. I believe you will be able to successfully petition this to remove the war, but this is a nasty one :P

Edit: See "Wong Wing Corporation" ingame

Burn Highsec Griefers
Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
The Pursuit of Happiness
#329 - 2012-11-02 20:33:52 UTC
Why would an alliance disband after being trapped in dec shield? If you are actually trapped then you are fine; if you join like holeysheet1 did then you aren't. Way too many trapped pirate/griefer/merc corps for anyone joining dec shield to be a threat.

Now if a legit corp were to actually join dec shield to get some targets then I would definitely approve of that.They would hold a trade hub for a day and then all of us tired of the notifications would travel there and take out our frustration Twisted Hell we even sat in jita in hopes of a "pro station pvper" to undock and think he owned the place. Our wish was never granted to say the least. Instead we went back to killing red fed and eve uni.

Zerg, something I do miss is the old mechanics. It was actually fun joining your alliance the day before the inferno patch and then waking up with 70 wars that were extended for a week! Those were the days..... People still accuse us of being carebears since we were in dec shield pre inferno Lol

"It is not possible either to trick or escape the mind of Zeus."

U-MAD Membership Recruitment

PoH Corporation Recruitment
Kronic Offender
Doomheim
#330 - 2012-11-02 20:41:14 UTC
The war dec system needs to be temporarily placed on hold as it is broken. A new system that allows corps to deny the war dec needs to be developed in it's place.
The Zerg Overmind
Rule Reversal
#331 - 2012-11-02 21:11:06 UTC
Zeus Maximo wrote:
Why would an alliance disband after being trapped in dec shield? If you are actually trapped then you are fine; if you join like holeysheet1 did then you aren't. Way too many trapped pirate/griefer/merc corps for anyone joining dec shield to be a threat.

Now if a legit corp were to actually join dec shield to get some targets then I would definitely approve of that.They would hold a trade hub for a day and then all of us tired of the notifications would travel there and take out our frustration Twisted Hell we even sat in jita in hopes of a "pro station pvper" to undock and think he owned the place. Our wish was never granted to say the least. Instead we went back to killing red fed and eve uni.

Zerg, something I do miss is the old mechanics. It was actually fun joining your alliance the day before the inferno patch and then waking up with 70 wars that were extended for a week! Those were the days..... People still accuse us of being carebears since we were in dec shield pre inferno Lol


They disbanded the alliance because they plan to reform a new alliance that isn't trapped with a wardec. But they'll need to disband their current corps as well first.

And pre-Inferno we had a number of pvpers in Dec Shield. I would offer to share all our wars with you, but you're a corp so I can't give them to you. We have a different set of pvpers now, because all the old pvpers are trapped by us in corps, and thus can't get access to our wars. I think the only large pvp entity that is actually making use of our wars is Moar Tears. There are plenty of smaller ones in alliance and floating about though.

For pvpers who want to join Dec Shield but don't know what corp to join, I recommend one of these:

Wiking Brigade
My L1ttl3 Pony
Blades of Doom
Lethal Death Squad

I don't know which are the most active or anything though

Burn Highsec Griefers
JustAnotherPlaceHolder
Content Providers
#332 - 2012-11-02 22:52:47 UTC
The Zerg Overmind wrote:
Ya I just noticed this. So it sent you an email saying your war target was joining an alliance? Because if so that's new, and one of our proposed changes. If they ended the war before I hit accept on their application the war won't even register against Dec Shield.

I believe it's even possible to be at war with corporations in an alliance without being at war with the alliance, for up to 24hrs, if the war starts to end right before they join the alliance. I know I've seen it before, but can't remember the exact mechanics to reproduce it off the top of my head.

Edit: If CCP changes mechanics to stop this that doesn't ruin anything. That IS our goal here. Dec Shield has only ever been around to demonstrate loopholes in wardec mechanics. If there are no more loopholes and everything gets fixed then our mission is accomplished and everyone can celebrate.

Basic order of operations was: defender corp surrenders, I accept, I get the mail that says war ends in 24hrs. About 3 or 4 hrs later, I get the mail that says defender has joined an alliance and I'll be at war with the alliance.

I get back today and right this minute the war dec vs the defender corp is over. The alliance dec starts (or is scheduled to start) at 00:04. So we'll see in 2 hrs.

I wasn't asking what you'll do if they fix wardecs, but what you'll do if they don't. Having read the post above about dead corps, it looks like you're out of options! lol

Interesting approach to solving this problem. I hope it works. I can think of some other things that could use the ad absurdum treatment.
JustAnotherPlaceHolder
Content Providers
#333 - 2012-11-03 00:23:24 UTC  |  Edited by: JustAnotherPlaceHolder
As of 00:21. exactly 24hrs after receiving the defender joining alliance mail, no decs have transferred. The defender corp doesn't show as in the alliance nor does it show it in its alliance history, so maybe there's a timing thing.

edit: 01:15, defender corp is now in Dec Shield. Still no wars for us. Looks like the evemail may get sent no matter what.

edit: 02:11, still no wars. so confirming defender corp that surrenders before being accepted into the alliance doesn't draw the aggressor into the dec shield, but eve mail warning is still sent.

have fun guys
Eve Scion
Gangsters And Gentlemen
#334 - 2012-11-03 10:07:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Eve Scion
I left manually the alliance after you absorbed my wardec thank you sooo much BUT :

I got back all the wars of the alliance 170 wardec in my Mailbox Shocked
i set all absorbed wars to non-mutual manually (damn...)

how long I have to wait so that these wars stop ?
Because I have half of the galaxy on the bottomLol

sorry for my crappy english

Best Regard
Arduemont
Rotten Legion
#335 - 2012-11-03 10:46:17 UTC
I hope this gets sorted soon.

This is probably the biggest in-game ****-up facing Eve at the moment. Let's hope they can find some development times to fix this for retribution.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf
Ben Youssef Noban
Doomheim
#336 - 2012-11-03 13:10:30 UTC
3 weeks from the time Goonswarm Federation gets infected will be the fix (but it probably won't be a very good one).
VegasMirage
Blank-Space
Northern Coalition.
#337 - 2012-11-03 17:35:33 UTC
Consequences.

no more games... it's real this time!!!
JustAnotherPlaceHolder
Content Providers
#338 - 2012-11-03 17:57:13 UTC
VegasMirage wrote:
Consequences.

Allow me to finish your sentence...

Consequences... there are none. (If you planned ahead to drop corp)

Once again, as with the old war dec system, the only people war decs affect are those who are attached to their corp name or have a POS they can't take down quickly. Wardecs affect no one else with half a brain.
Eve Scion
Gangsters And Gentlemen
#339 - 2012-11-03 20:09:27 UTC
No solution to my problem?
The Zerg Overmind
Rule Reversal
#340 - 2012-11-03 20:23:54 UTC
Eve Scion wrote:
No solution to my problem?

The wardecs will drop off within a week. Some will drop off sooner, many will offer surrenders. I'm afraid there's no way to avoid the wardecs copying in both directions, yet...

Ben Youssef Noban wrote:
3 weeks from the time Goonswarm Federation gets infected will be the fix (but it probably won't be a very good one).

Goonswarm are actually trapped in an outgoing wardec, but not against us. Going on two weeks now, so next week we should hear a solution :P

Burn Highsec Griefers