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Cloak Counter-Measures
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Lianail Deninard
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2011-10-19 15:00:51 UTC
For every warfare technology, there is eventually a counter-measure. I have invented the counter-measure for cloaking. It is a pair of ECM modules that allow detection of cloaked vessels. Both modules require massive amounts of CPU capability only found on Combat Recon Ships. (10000tf reduced 95-99% on CRS). Both of these modules require Electronics Upgrades 5
The first module enhances the capability of targeting sensors. Each cycle, the operator has a percentage chance to detect cloaked ships with his targeting sensors. This module would also require Signature Analysis, and Signature Focusing skills, possibly to high levels.
The second module enhances the capability of probe launchers. This would allow the detection of cloaked ships with probes. Of course a cloaked ship would have a massively reduced signature so would be very difficult to isolate. It may only be possible to isolate such a signature to within 10-100km. This module would also require Astrometric Acquisition skills.

  Reward law abiding citizens. We should never promote sociopathic behavior as a primary mode of interaction.  There are reasons for Good people to fight, such as defending innocents from the sociopaths.  Encourage people to become heros, not villians.   If you agree with an idea, [u]Like[/u] it.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#2 - 2011-10-19 15:04:04 UTC
Nope. Breaks wormhole mechanics. Cloaking, and staying undetected and undetectable, is necessary in wormholes.

Address the real problem... the fact that you can see the cloaked ship in local... and do so in a balanced manner, then get back to us.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Lianail Deninard
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2011-10-19 15:18:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Lianail Deninard
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Nope. Breaks wormhole mechanics. Cloaking, and staying undetected and undetectable, is necessary in wormholes.

Address the real problem... the fact that you can see the cloaked ship in local... and do so in a balanced manner, then get back to us.


You can't see the ship in local in WH's. Also, that's an entirely separate issue from a technological breakthrough. I don't need to address that issue here.
This doesn't have to break the mechanics. If the requirements were high enough, very few pilots would be able to operate them. Also, the signature may be so small that only the top experts in scanning could ever find such a ship, and only if they had Sisters Launchers, with Sisters Combat Probes and 1 or more gravity capacitor upgrades on the ship.

  Reward law abiding citizens. We should never promote sociopathic behavior as a primary mode of interaction.  There are reasons for Good people to fight, such as defending innocents from the sociopaths.  Encourage people to become heros, not villians.   If you agree with an idea, [u]Like[/u] it.
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#4 - 2011-10-19 15:24:59 UTC
Lianail Deninard wrote:
For every warfare technology, there is eventually a counter-measure.


wrong.
stopped reading here.

docking has no counter
local has no counter

just to name 2 of them.
Lianail Deninard
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2011-10-19 15:27:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Lianail Deninard
Robert Caldera wrote:


wrong.
stopped reading here.

docking has no counter
local has no counter

just to name 2 of them.



Eventually, these may also.

  Reward law abiding citizens. We should never promote sociopathic behavior as a primary mode of interaction.  There are reasons for Good people to fight, such as defending innocents from the sociopaths.  Encourage people to become heros, not villians.   If you agree with an idea, [u]Like[/u] it.
Barbara Nichole
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2011-10-19 15:57:23 UTC
This is a monsterously bad idea.

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#7 - 2011-10-19 15:58:57 UTC
Lianail Deninard wrote:
For every warfare technology, there is eventually a counter-measure.
Yes. For Local, there is the counter-measure of cloaking.

So how do you propose to fix local so that cloaking has some reason to change?
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#8 - 2011-10-19 16:04:21 UTC
Lianail Deninard wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Nope. Breaks wormhole mechanics. Cloaking, and staying undetected and undetectable, is necessary in wormholes.

Address the real problem... the fact that you can see the cloaked ship in local... and do so in a balanced manner, then get back to us.


You can't see the ship in local in WH's. Also, that's an entirely separate issue from a technological breakthrough. I don't need to address that issue here.
This doesn't have to break the mechanics. If the requirements were high enough, very few pilots would be able to operate them. Also, the signature may be so small that only the top experts in scanning could ever find such a ship, and only if they had Sisters Launchers, with Sisters Combat Probes and 1 or more gravity capacitor upgrades on the ship.


The fact that you can't see ships in local is a major reason why your idea is demonstrably bad. If someone is in the hole and cloaked, and they managed to get there unseen, they've earned that little bit of invisibility; it's now theirs to do with as they see fit. However, if some crap idea about being able to detect cloaked ships were to ever darken the game, this would set up a new paradigm where everyone in wormholes would wind up nearly requiring someone in hole to be able to perform such a function. As such, your cloaked ship, that stealthily earned it's way into the enemy system to covertly gather intel, will now lose that element of surprise, the ability to study unknown and unseen.

So yes, it has to be addressed and it does break mechanics. Period. It greatly hampers the ability to gather intel in wormholes in order to prepare for a successful op, for one. They don't have to find the ship. They only have to detect the presence of it to screw things up. KNOWING it's there changes behaviors and routines.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Lianail Deninard
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2011-10-19 16:06:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Lianail Deninard
Again, this is not a fix for anything. This is an idea for a new technology. Status quo is irrelevant. Is there anyone out there that would like this technology? Is it viable and possible within the Lore of the game? Isn't even probable? The question is not if it should be added, only when.

If you want to gather intel, you can still do so, just move whenever a combat recon probe gets within 1au of you on dscan. And just because they send out probes, doesn't mean they have the ability to detect you. This doesn't break anything it only changes it. Makes it easier for some, more difficult for others.

See also https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=23430

  Reward law abiding citizens. We should never promote sociopathic behavior as a primary mode of interaction.  There are reasons for Good people to fight, such as defending innocents from the sociopaths.  Encourage people to become heros, not villians.   If you agree with an idea, [u]Like[/u] it.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#10 - 2011-10-19 16:13:42 UTC
Lianail Deninard wrote:
Again, this is not a fix for anything. This is an idea for a new technology. Status quo is irrelevant. Is there anyone out there that would like this technology? Is it viable and possible within the Lore of the game? Isn't even probable? The question is not if it should be added, only when.

If you want to gather intel, you can still do so, just move whenever a combat recon probe gets within 1au of you on dscan.


Bull. This is a thinly veiled regurgitation on the "nerf the afk cloaker" theme that the cowardly few have been spewing forth as of late.

You're idea is failing because it allows the presence of a cloaked vessel in the system to be known. That's a major issue and breaks a significant means of covert intel gathering in wormholes.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Lianail Deninard
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2011-10-19 16:18:39 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:

Bull. This is a thinly veiled regurgitation on the "nerf the afk cloaker" theme that the cowardly few have been spewing forth as of late.

You're idea is failing because it allows the presence of a cloaked vessel in the system to be known. That's a major issue and breaks a significant means of covert intel gathering in wormholes.


This is not a regurgitation of that idea. However, it was inspired by that idea. Again, it does not break it, it just makes it tougher for you. Sorry you come out on the loosing side of an idea.

  Reward law abiding citizens. We should never promote sociopathic behavior as a primary mode of interaction.  There are reasons for Good people to fight, such as defending innocents from the sociopaths.  Encourage people to become heros, not villians.   If you agree with an idea, [u]Like[/u] it.
Mirima Thurander
#12 - 2011-10-19 16:18:56 UTC
I have a better solution cloaking removes you from local chat, you cant cry about cloaking if you don't know there in system.


I do have something to say about people going AFK cloaked inside of spawned combat sites, just make it where you cant cloak inside of them.

All automated intel should be removed from the game including Instant local/jumps/kills/cynos for all systems/regions.Eve should report nothing like this to the client/3rd party software.Intel should not be force fed to players. Player skill and iniative should be the sources of intel.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#13 - 2011-10-19 16:20:43 UTC
Lianail Deninard wrote:
The first module enhances the capability of targeting sensors. Each cycle, the operator has a percentage chance to detect cloaked ships with his targeting sensors. This module would also require Signature Analysis, and Signature Focusing skills, possibly to high levels.


Which makes bomber gangs useless in combat, hurts dictors, leaves the entire concept of black ops gangs dead in the water, ruins scouting, trashes covert hauling (Need I go on?)
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#14 - 2011-10-19 16:23:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Lianail Deninard wrote:
Again, this is not a fix for anything. This is an idea for a new technology.
…which is needed why, exactly?
Quote:
The question is not if it should be added, only when.
No, the question is only why. You haven't particularly addressed this. Why should it be added? Why is it needed? What does it bring? What does it remove? What does it break? What does it fix?

When is an entirely irrelevant, and in fact rather stupid, question to ask until all of the above has been answered (and even then, the question of “if” remains to be answered before ”when” comes even close to being interesting).
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#15 - 2011-10-19 16:32:24 UTC
Lianail Deninard wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:

Bull. This is a thinly veiled regurgitation on the "nerf the afk cloaker" theme that the cowardly few have been spewing forth as of late.

You're idea is failing because it allows the presence of a cloaked vessel in the system to be known. That's a major issue and breaks a significant means of covert intel gathering in wormholes.


This is not a regurgitation of that idea. However, it was inspired by that idea. Again, it does not break it, it just makes it tougher for you. Sorry you come out on the loosing side of an idea.


I'm going to hope you're pretending to be stupid as a trolling tactic.

Yes, it breaks gathering reliable intel in wormholes. Knowing a cloaked ship is present, and seeing it present for days in a row will alter the behavior of the residents. Certain ships won't be seen. Loot will be taken out of the hole, and likely many juicy arrays as such as well. Defenses will be onlined that would have been offline when the attack was executed.

Cloaked ships are and should remain undetectable for the very reason that the truly dangerous space requires it to remain so. Wormholes don't need to be softened up because someone hid in a nullsec station and whined.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#16 - 2011-10-19 19:39:59 UTC
I would like to know what the countermeasure to Lianail Deninard's bad posts is.
Lianail Deninard
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2011-10-19 21:55:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Lianail Deninard
Ingvar Angst wrote:

I'm going to hope you're pretending to be stupid as a trolling tactic.

Yes, it breaks gathering reliable intel in wormholes. Knowing a cloaked ship is present, and seeing it present for days in a row will alter the behavior of the residents. Certain ships won't be seen. Loot will be taken out of the hole, and likely many juicy arrays as such as well. Defenses will be onlined that would have been offline when the attack was executed.

Cloaked ships are and should remain undetectable for the very reason that the truly dangerous space requires it to remain so. Wormholes don't need to be softened up because someone hid in a nullsec station and whined.


In a wormhole, how would you know the ship was present? They DON'T show up on local. OK, so you detect them on a daily scan of the wormhole. My OP didn't cover that. It can be fixed without trashing the whole idea. Allow the probe enhancing module only a 1% chance per skill level of detecting the cloaked ship at 32AU, 2% at 16AU, etc. That way there is no certainty that it will show up on a system-wide scan. So, the guy with the scanning is just SURE that there is a cloaked ship, and scans the system over and over trying to catch someone... but what if noone is there? There should be no certainties on either side. The number of pilots that have the skill levels required for this is a very small percentage of the total population, and will remain so. In most cases there would simply be no way for the residents to be aware aware a cloaked ship is there. No different than it is now. Even if someone had the skill, with only a percentage chance for it to be successful, they would not scan the systems repeatedly day after day. They would only do so when they have justifiable cause for that much effort.

  Reward law abiding citizens. We should never promote sociopathic behavior as a primary mode of interaction.  There are reasons for Good people to fight, such as defending innocents from the sociopaths.  Encourage people to become heros, not villians.   If you agree with an idea, [u]Like[/u] it.
Svenjabi Xiang
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#18 - 2011-10-19 22:04:16 UTC
Lianail Deninard wrote:

daily scan of the wormhole.



I stopped read here as I needed to go get wipes for my monitor.

No. Bad Idea. Dust-bin
Lianail Deninard
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2011-10-19 22:04:22 UTC
The reason "Why?". If I owned a wormhole, I'd like the ability to counter ship cloaking technology. If all technology in New Eden is static, it is boring and pointless. You fly for a while, then you leave. Things must change from time to time. This is a counter to existing technology. Eventually, someone should invent an improved cloak that is proof against this technology as well. And so on, and so on. Thats why you have different meta level technologies, constant improvement of an idea.

  Reward law abiding citizens. We should never promote sociopathic behavior as a primary mode of interaction.  There are reasons for Good people to fight, such as defending innocents from the sociopaths.  Encourage people to become heros, not villians.   If you agree with an idea, [u]Like[/u] it.
Svenjabi Xiang
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#20 - 2011-10-19 22:09:59 UTC
I can appreciate that the attempt is to have a new idea.

Except,

it's not a new idea. It's been suggested, examined, and flushed down the toilet-bowl of these forums probably since the cloak was proposed in a dev blog. It's not that there's not even a significant portion of the player base that want such a thing. It's that the devs have repeatedly, by action and word, reaffirmed that they want the mechanic in the game, as it is.
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