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Anti-POS ship class idea - (Tier 3/T2) BattleShip / Pocket Dreadnought
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JP Nakamura
Union of Intergalactic Miners and Nano Assemblers
#1 - 2012-10-30 17:13:49 UTC  |  Edited by: JP Nakamura
Okay ... apologies in advance if this has been posted before, I did some searching but didn't see this idea (or certainly not in a fleshed out state).

EvE is supposed to have a risk/reward balance.
There is currently next to no risk to High-Sec POSes.

I've seen quite a few Large POSes that are completely defenseless in high-sec with lots of shield hardeners.

There has to be SOME balance to a space station run by a 3 person Corp w/859.2M EHP, in a land where anything bigger than a BattleShip isn't allowed.

To help balance that, and since T1 BattleShips are probably going to looked at for balancing in the Summer Expansion, I'd like to propose a Pocket Dreadnought.

Essentially a BattleShip equivalent of a Tier 3 BattleCruiser.
(personally I'd love to see this as a T1 BS, but I could also see the argument of it as a T2 BS)

Give it:

  • one Weapon Mounting Point (turret/missile as racially appropriate)
  • a PG/CPU/Cap reduction for racial Capital weapons so it can mount one Capital Weapon
  • a PG reduction for Siege Modules so it can mount Siege Modules
  • a role bonus to cut Strontium use of Siege Modules by 66%


I'd also love to see an expanded cargo bay to hold Ammo/Strontium, but obviously not one that obviates resupply needs.

To those who'd say "Well, you can already mount a Capital weapon on a BS" ( https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1243850#post1243850 in example). While it is true that you can squeeze the weapon into a ship, without the Siege module to bonus the damage (or a comparable roll bonus), it is next to useless. As an added bonus, once you allow it to use the Siege modules, it brings along the host of other changes that the Siege module includes:

For example the T1 Siege module:

  • consumes Strontium making its use more expensive
  • -100% speed boost brings ship to a halt and unable to dodge
  • has a cycle time of 300 seconds so the ship isn't going anywhere
  • 700% weapon damage boost
  • 100% bonus on Shield Boost & Armor Rep amount, -50% on Shield Boost and Armor Rep cycle times
  • -75% scan resolution



tl;dr
The end result of this proposal is a BS/Mini-Dreadnought whose roll is anti-POS for lightly or uncontested POSes.

It can fly in High-Sec (or other places without a Cyno) and can actually challenge POSes, while trading off that ability by being a fragile platform built around that weapon itself. It will need to be defended against contested POSes, have POS weapons picked off by HACs and other support BSes, resupplied during sieges, and will certainly not replace Dreadnoughts in Low-Sec/Null-Sec.

Edit:
For reference, CCP did discuss some of their ideas for POSes at the last CSM Meeting: CSM_CCP Meeting Minutes Bottom of Page 63, "Starbase Rework".

At that point, all they had were ideas. Considering that both Starbases AND Battleships will most likely be up for rework/review in 2013, I think this is the perfect time to consider this new class, and what it could bring to the table in terms of anti-POS actions.

Comments? Thoughts? Suggestions? Apathetic Shrugs? Lol

CCP: 10+ years of Harvesting players Tears  (latest efforts being Source Limited Edition, and Alliance Logo Revised Policies)
Luc Chastot
#2 - 2012-10-30 17:49:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Luc Chastot
Highsec POSs are barely profitable, why would you want to destroy them?

Edit: Also, you can already do it; just bring some friends.

Make it idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot.

Jessy Berbers
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2012-10-30 17:55:09 UTC
I´m sure they will also do something about this with the upcoming revamp of POS system.
Jaling Orion
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#4 - 2012-10-30 17:56:32 UTC
It is an interesting idea, but the problem is, what abour industry corps who have no interest in PvP? Now you're making them a bigger target by merc corps. If all they want is a personal research/production station because the one's in their area are now full, you're punishing them.

On the otherhand, if you make it so they can only deploy in 0.0/unknown, then you now have a decent ship to take down POSes in smaller WH space.
De'Veldrin
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2012-10-30 18:00:28 UTC  |  Edited by: De'Veldrin
JP Nakamura wrote:

Comments? Thoughts? Suggestions? Apathetic Shrugs? Lol


My only thought is that it may not do any more damage than a properly fit tower bashing Battleship, and it will useless for anything outside of shooting towers.

Jaling Orion wrote:
It is an interesting idea, but the problem is, what abour industry corps who have no interest in PvP? Now you're making them a bigger target by merc corps. If all they want is a personal research/production station because the one's in their area are now full, you're punishing them.


The fact that you formed a player corporation is your consent to be wardecced and have your shiny tower abused. This ship doesn't change that. I'm not even sure it would make doing so any easier.

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#6 - 2012-10-30 18:38:26 UTC
How much DPS would this thing get, siege and all? Around 2k-2.5k? I guess it would work, as it would also have the tank of a BS, as opposed to a dread, be completely stationary due to siege, and it would have the tracking of nothing, as cap sized guns track like ****. I guess it wouldn't be too unfair, though I don't know what sort of things it would do to sniper BS fleets.

I mean, a Revelation with a Giga beam can get 1600 DPS at 65+66, or 674 at 208+66, albiet with terrible tracking. I wonder what this would do to sniper fights... aside from locking down the BS's and making them easy meat for any close range fleet that can get some interceptor to run in the middle of them and anchor.
JP Nakamura
Union of Intergalactic Miners and Nano Assemblers
#7 - 2012-10-30 18:55:37 UTC
Luc Chastot wrote:
Highsec POSs are barely profitable, why would you want to destroy them?

Edit: Also, you can already do it; just bring some friends.


What does profitability on the part of someone else have anything to do with why I would want to destroy them?

The two main reasons are:
1) I've war deced them and want to mess with their stuff. The POS is their stuff.
2) The tower could be completely offline and still be sitting there, taking space, and I want to put up my own tower.

Also, define bring some friends. The nearest I can figure if you have a large POS in High-Sec, w/~859.2m EHP, it would take 25 people flying BSes cranked to max ~9.5 hours to take it into reinforced mode. Come back later and repeat the process to take it down. Not unreasonable, but a bit at odds considering, I've seen Corps with 3 people running 4 Large towers in High-Sec. Sure, they can do it, and one would think there must be a profit, or they wouldn't do it, but the fact that a Corp twice - four times their size can come along and can't challenge those at all seems disproportional, and they aren't even putting any weapons on the thing, just shields.

Jessy Berbers wrote:
I´m sure they will also do something about this with the upcoming revamp of POS system.


Possibly, but I haven't heard anything about the revamp of the POS system, or any timeline on those changes happening. Any chance you have links to some of their thoughts?
This idea of a Pocket Dreadnought works within what we currently know about POSes and might help be part of that balancing.

Jaling Orion wrote:
It is an interesting idea, but the problem is, what abour industry corps who have no interest in PvP? Now you're making them a bigger target by merc corps. If all they want is a personal research/production station because the one's in their area are now full, you're punishing them.

On the otherhand, if you make it so they can only deploy in 0.0/unknown, then you now have a decent ship to take down POSes in smaller WH space.



Industry Corps don't need to be doing PvP, but if you put up a POS you better put some weapons on it, and be prepared to defend it, or else be prepared to lose it, or rip it down if war decced. These Pocket Dreadnoughts would have BS EHP (boosted by boosters/reps in Siege mode), but they would still be much more fragile than Dreadnoughts.

As you point out, they would also be a good addition for Wormhole space (something I hadn't considered). In low-sec/null-sec they'd mostly be too fragile compared to Dreadnoughts with a lower damage per toon density, so not worth it given the choice. For small uncontested/poorly contested POSes though, it would might make sense.

CCP: 10+ years of Harvesting players Tears  (latest efforts being Source Limited Edition, and Alliance Logo Revised Policies)
JP Nakamura
Union of Intergalactic Miners and Nano Assemblers
#8 - 2012-10-30 19:00:44 UTC  |  Edited by: JP Nakamura
De'Veldrin wrote:
JP Nakamura wrote:

Comments? Thoughts? Suggestions? Apathetic Shrugs? Lol


My only thought is that it may not do any more damage than a properly fit tower bashing Battleship, and it will useless for anything outside of shooting towers.

Jaling Orion wrote:
It is an interesting idea, but the problem is, what abour industry corps who have no interest in PvP? Now you're making them a bigger target by merc corps. If all they want is a personal research/production station because the one's in their area are now full, you're punishing them.


The fact that you formed a player corporation is your consent to be wardecced and have your shiny tower abused. This ship doesn't change that. I'm not even sure it would make doing so any easier.


As near I can figure, you'd be lucky if you can put together a 1k continuous DPS BS. In contrast, the proposed Pocket Dreadnought should be able to put out more (if you have a better POS bashing DPS fit, please point me in that direction, I haven't seen it yet, and have been looking pretty hard).

You're absolutely correct that this would be useless outside of POS bashing, but that is the roll I'm proposing it for, so that's fine. :)

High-Sec and Wormholes could use it, and Low-Sec for small undefended/lightly defended POSes might be interesting as part of a Gang.

Goldensaver wrote:
How much DPS would this thing get, siege and all? Around 2k-2.5k? I guess it would work, as it would also have the tank of a BS, as opposed to a dread, be completely stationary due to siege, and it would have the tracking of nothing, as cap sized guns track like ****. I guess it wouldn't be too unfair, though I don't know what sort of things it would do to sniper BS fleets.

I mean, a Revelation with a Giga beam can get 1600 DPS at 65+66, or 674 at 208+66, albiet with terrible tracking. I wonder what this would do to sniper fights... aside from locking down the BS's and making them easy meat for any close range fleet that can get some interceptor to run in the middle of them and anchor.


The main idea was a ship with more DPS vs. POS than a BS can get, but less than a Dreadnought.
It can get more DPS at the "cost" of having a much lower EHP than a Dreadnought, but can go places Dreadnoughts can't (High-Sec/Wormhole space).

I'll admit, one of the things I was curious and hoping for feedback on was how this type of hull might effect fleet combat.

CCP: 10+ years of Harvesting players Tears  (latest efforts being Source Limited Edition, and Alliance Logo Revised Policies)
Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#9 - 2012-10-30 19:35:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Commander Ted
I already had this idea, cruiser-battleship sized glass cannons with 1 capital guns, Hi-sec pos's don't need a counter these would be more useful for ganking the pretty much invulnerable titans and super caps outside of someone going afk while moving out of a pos.
Their EHP should be very mediocre, perhaps in the 90k range, and should have very bad resists all the health should be in regular hitpoints to withstand at least some fire from a capital ship.
They should have to use a siege mode in order to fire but it should not cost any stront.
It should simply be a transform mode similar to the rorqual to allow it to fire its gun and be forced to be stationary.
Costing as many resources as their races respective tier 3 battleships to build they would be a very cheap weapon to field but also very very very easy to loose.
Should be a rock paper scissors counter thing

Minidreads>Supers>subcaps>minidreads.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec.
JP Nakamura
Union of Intergalactic Miners and Nano Assemblers
#10 - 2012-10-30 21:17:48 UTC
Commander Ted wrote:
I already had this idea, cruiser-battleship sized glass cannons with 1 capital guns, Hi-sec pos's don't need a counter these would be more useful for ganking the pretty much invulnerable titans and super caps outside of someone going afk while moving out of a pos.
Their EHP should be very mediocre, perhaps in the 90k range, and should have very bad resists all the health should be in regular hitpoints to withstand at least some fire from a capital ship.
They should have to use a siege mode in order to fire but it should not cost any stront.
It should simply be a transform mode similar to the rorqual to allow it to fire its gun and be forced to be stationary.
Costing as many resources as their races respective tier 3 battleships to build they would be a very cheap weapon to field but also very very very easy to loose.
Should be a rock paper scissors counter thing

Minidreads>Supers>subcaps>minidreads.



Hi-Sec POS's don't need a counter, but Titan's and Super Caps do? If you think Hi-Sec POSes don't need counters, than whatever their counter is, should be viable against Titans and SuperCaps.

I thought the counter for Titans and SuperCaps was Titans and SuperCaps.

You want high HP, stront-less Siege mode, and a cap weapon with a cheap-ish hull cost. That seems like too cheap a price for the Cap weapon, even with the low HP.

Throw in the stront for the Siege mode with a roll bonus to scale the system, give it resists for SOME HP and it could face POS weapons a bit also, which would make it more viable in the role I proposed them for, as well as your Anti-Super Cap Blob swarm, but I'd rather have them be more roll dedicated as cheaper/fragile anti-POS platforms personally.

CCP: 10+ years of Harvesting players Tears  (latest efforts being Source Limited Edition, and Alliance Logo Revised Policies)
Me ofcourse
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#11 - 2012-10-31 07:48:19 UTC
i actually like this idea, make it to where the tank is in between a battleship and a capital ship, and yeah, it sure would be awesome. and for the people complaining about it ruining highsec pos's. well its EVE, everything is a risk
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#12 - 2012-10-31 08:30:37 UTC
there shouldnt be a dread for high sec.
Martin0
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2012-10-31 08:37:35 UTC
Shield megatrhons + sentryes and some friends
RavenTesio
Liandri Corporation
#14 - 2012-10-31 11:48:57 UTC
Would say this would probably be a good idea, not in terms of just High-Sec... more simply to expand out the Battleship Class.
There is in my opinion absolutely no reason to use Capital Weaponry though, to be perfectly honest even on a Dreadnaught with bonus' unless you're in Seige Mode; you actually put out around the same Damage Per Second as a Tech 1 Battleship.

Most Faction or Tech 2 Battleships will happily out Damage a Dreadnought with far better Tracking (or Explosion Radius) making them more viable for general operations rather than structure / capital shooting which the Dreadnought is really designed for.

This said, I have no issues seeing a Tech 2 Battleship that is capable of using a Siege Module that would increase it's Offensive and Defensive Capabilities. What I would point out however, is while sure Dreads use Strontium as a means of Fuel for Siege... it probably should be pointed out that they also use a CONSIDERABLY greater amount of Capacitor as well.

Now as I'm a Caldari Pilot I will use one of their ships as an example for this:
Sambuca Class 'Peng' (Rokh Hull)
Base • 1,025 CPU - 14,075 PG - 400 Calibration [2 Slots]
Shield • 11,690 [0.0 • 40.0 • 47.5 • 50.0]
Armor • 9,625 [50.0 • 58.0 • 35.0 • 10.0]
Struct • 10,300
Capacitor • 8,250.0 GJ - 795.25s
Slot • 5 High - 7 Mid - 5 Low (4 Launcher - 0 Turret)
Storage • 625 m3 (Cargo) - 750 m3 (Fuel Bay)

Caldari Battleship Bonus
• 5% Bonus to Rate-of-Fire Cruise and Torpedo Launchers
• 5% Bonus to Shield Resists

Sambuca Class Bonus
• 7.5% bonus for Shield Boost
• -10% reduction in Seige Module Fuel Requirements

Role Bonus
• 100% bonus to Cruise and Torpedo Damage
• -99.5% reduction in Powergrid for Seige Modules
• -25% reduction in Seige Module Damage Bonus

Note: Can Fit Seige Module

I'm sure the other ships could probably fit along similar lines, but the basic idea is not to displace the Dreadnought but have a Battleship that is focused specifically towards Structure / Static Fleet Combat. Something to point out here is what gives the Dreadnoughts their incredible tanking ability are the Capital Local Rep modules...

With the X-Large Modules, even with the bonus (akin to the Maurader) when in Seige these ships would only really gain a 1,500-2,000 DPS tank (before resists depending on implants)

So they're not unbeatable, especially given just as with Dreads... Capacitor is far bigger concern overal.
This would make it extremely good for Structure Combat, either Defense or Attack; but when you're talking general PvP the reliance they would have on local tanks over Logistics actually makes then quite vunerable.

More so when you keep in mind that 33% of the Fitting (PG) is the Seige Module so limits what you can actually put on them.
Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2012-10-31 13:32:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Alx Warlord
Jessy Berbers wrote:
I´m sure they will also do something about this with the upcoming revamp of POS system.


I hope so... but the Tier 3 Bcs does about 1000 DPS and are a good ship against undefended CTs .... I think they fit the role. But still they take too long to bash....

If you have feelings about the POS revamp, please take a look at THIS TREAD and leave some comments.

o/

Please read these!

New POS system New SOV system
JP Nakamura
Union of Intergalactic Miners and Nano Assemblers
#16 - 2012-10-31 17:10:59 UTC
Me ofcourse wrote:
i actually like this idea, make it to where the tank is in between a battleship and a capital ship, and yeah, it sure would be awesome. and for the people complaining about it ruining highsec pos's. well its EVE, everything is a risk


Thanks for the support. As others have pointed out, it opens things up for more than just High-Sec. It also would be useful for Wormholes (at the very least).

CCP: 10+ years of Harvesting players Tears  (latest efforts being Source Limited Edition, and Alliance Logo Revised Policies)
Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#17 - 2012-10-31 17:39:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Commander Ted
JP Nakamura wrote:
Hi-Sec POS's don't need a counter, but Titan's and Super Caps do? If you think Hi-Sec POSes don't need counters, than whatever their counter is, should be viable against Titans and SuperCaps.

I thought the counter for Titans and SuperCaps was Titans and SuperCaps.

You want high HP, stront-less Siege mode, and a cap weapon with a cheap-ish hull cost. That seems like too cheap a price for the Cap weapon, even with the low HP.

Throw in the stront for the Siege mode with a roll bonus to scale the system, give it resists for SOME HP and it could face POS weapons a bit also, which would make it more viable in the role I proposed them for, as well as your Anti-Super Cap Blob swarm, but I'd rather have them be more roll dedicated as cheaper/fragile anti-POS platforms personally.


If it had HP then it would just make dreadnaughts useless. If it is a cheap alternative then it shouldn't have to consume strontium but it should definetly transform into a vunerable attack mode.

If a carebear is running a hisec pos then I see no reason why you can't just raise a group of battleships to destroy it. Might take a few hours to do but it is possible.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec.
JP Nakamura
Union of Intergalactic Miners and Nano Assemblers
#18 - 2012-10-31 19:40:19 UTC
Commander Ted wrote:

JP Nakamura wrote:

Hi-Sec POS's don't need a counter, but Titan's and Super Caps do? If you think Hi-Sec POSes don't need counters, than whatever their counter is, should be viable against Titans and SuperCaps.

I thought the counter for Titans and SuperCaps was Titans and SuperCaps.

You want high HP, stront-less Siege mode, and a cap weapon with a cheap-ish hull cost. That seems like too cheap a price for the Cap weapon, even with the low HP.

Throw in the stront for the Siege mode with a roll bonus to scale the system, give it resists for SOME HP and it could face POS weapons a bit also, which would make it more viable in the role I proposed them for, as well as your Anti-Super Cap Blob swarm, but I'd rather have them be more roll dedicated as cheaper/fragile anti-POS platforms personally.


If it had HP then it would just make dreadnaughts useless. If it is a cheap alternative then it shouldn't have to consume strontium but it should definetly transform into a vunerable attack mode.

If a carebear is running a hisec pos then I see no reason why you can't just raise a group of battleships to destroy it. Might take a few hours to do but it is possible.


(edit: Fixed the missed opening quote.)

I agree, it shouldn't have much HP, I agree, especially compared to a Dreadnought because that WOULD unbalance. Dreadnoughts WOULD have a higher density of fire though (especially since I'm suggesting only 1 gun vs the three a Dreadnought can field). I originally considered proposing a roll bonus to replace the Siege module, or proposed stront free running, but I'm not sure that wouldn't drop the cost to run it too much. If that doesn't devalue the Dreadnought too much, then I'd consider supporting that idea also, but I'm not sure it wouldn't decrease the cost of operation and overpower the concept.

Currently raising a group of battleships is certainly a possibility (the only one in High-Sec, or Wormhole space), but the disproportionate HP of the POS vs a Battleship means taking down a Large POS in High-Sec needs an Oxymoron: a large Corp in High-Sec.

CCP: 10+ years of Harvesting players Tears  (latest efforts being Source Limited Edition, and Alliance Logo Revised Policies)
Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#19 - 2012-10-31 19:46:35 UTC
JP Nakamura wrote:


(edit: Fixed the missed opening quote.)

I agree, it shouldn't have much HP, I agree, especially compared to a Dreadnought because that WOULD unbalance. Dreadnoughts WOULD have a higher density of fire though (especially since I'm suggesting only 1 gun vs the three a Dreadnought can field). I originally considered proposing a roll bonus to replace the Siege module, or proposed stront free running, but I'm not sure that wouldn't drop the cost to run it too much. If that doesn't devalue the Dreadnought too much, then I'd consider supporting that idea also, but I'm not sure it wouldn't decrease the cost of operation and overpower the concept.

Currently raising a group of battleships is certainly a possibility (the only one in High-Sec, or Wormhole space), but the disproportionate HP of the POS vs a Battleship means taking down a Large POS in High-Sec needs an Oxymoron: a large Corp in High-Sec.

Ive done it before, its boring, takes forever, and their are large corps in hisec, lots of em.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec.
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#20 - 2012-10-31 20:52:40 UTC
Commander Ted wrote:

Ive done it before, its boring, takes forever, and their are large corps in hisec, lots of em.

Yeah, but one of the things I've noticed is that a lot of the high-sec corps take on small armies of newbs and scrubs, many of whom can't field a half decent ship to take down the POS's.


Also something to consider:

Despite the fact that 3 of these would approximately equal a single Dread for firepower, they will be significantly less resilient.

Where when you are fighting a Dread, to remove it from the field entirely takes destroying the thing outright. With these, you could deal 1/3rd of a Dreads HP in damage to the ships, and remove 1/3rd of the effectiveness, if not more.

You could reduce their presence simply by blowing up a couple. A Dread is a clear threat as long as it is alive, and it takes a concentrated effort to take one down.

I'd say that that's another interesting balancing factor.
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