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Faction Warfare - Fixing Amarr/Minmatar Geography

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Author
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2012-10-30 20:56:22 UTC
from http://poeticstanziel.blogspot.ca/2012/10/faction-warfare-fixing-minmataramarr.html

One of the longstanding problems with the Minmatar/Amarr warzone is the geography. The Amarr warzone (Devoid and The Bleak Lands) is quick and simple to traverse. It's very circular in nature with multiple paths between systems available. The Minmatar warzone (Heimatar and Metropolis), other than the Dal-Amamake-Auga-Siseide loop, consists of a single pipe. The only access to the majority of the warzone, through a single chokepoint at Hofjaldgund. A number of cul-de-sacs from this pipe. It's a very difficult section of the warzone to attack, while being exceptionally easy for the Minmatar to defend. Other than the occasional roam, the Amarr generally ignore the majority of the Minmatar warzone.

The following map is the current state of the Minmatar-Amarr warzone geography.

IMAGE: http://i.imgur.com/Kj57r.png

The Minmatar have more systems under their control by default. I'm not overly concerned about this particular inequity. The larger problem is the geography itself. The difficulty of waging war within the Minmatar regions versus the Amarr regions.

What needs to be accomplished is broadening the Minmatar warzone, creating more stargate connections to allow for multiple points of ingress (or egress, as the case may be) into Metropolis in particular. This eliminates Hofjaldgund as a chokepoint, and opens up Minmatar systems to same level of access as systems in the Amarr regions.

I've added four new systems connections in the map below, coloured green.

IMAGE: http://i.imgur.com/xENQi.png

Now, I don't suggest that this is the solution. It's a possible solution, but may have problems of its own. I do offer it up as a starting point of discussion.

Apparently CCP approached Hans, back at the CSM Summit, with questions about the warzone, what might be done to fix it. They were more than willing to look at ways to fix the geography. Hans' response, according to the Hans Visits Fweddit discussion, was to ignore the request, because no Amarr had come to him specifically to discuss the issue or offer up changes that might work.

Hans wonders why he's called out for his Minmatar bias at times. He's stated that he himself knows the Minmatar-Amarr geography to be problematic, but he wasn't about to offer up any solutions of his own accord. The Amarr were going to have to come to him first. What an amazing representative we elected. Why should he move forward on the issue alone, or make public appeals to the Amarr about the geography problems? He's Minmatar, the warzone inequities are to his side's advantage, after all. So, he was going to wait for the Amarr themselves to bring it up, which they never did. (I doubt any Amarr even knew it was an issue that CCP had placed upon the table, something they were willing to devote resources to fixing.) I hope that it isn't too late to fix the issue, given Hans dropping the ball in this regard.

So, before it's too late. Let's discuss the warzone. Maybe this is something that could get done for Retribution 1.2 or 1.3. Let's see if we can not push CCP towards making changes, let's as a community succeed where Hans has failed.
Deen Wispa
The Mjolnir Bloc
Shadow Cartel
#2 - 2012-10-30 21:03:45 UTC
TL:DR. I HATE HANS !

High Five. Yeah! C'est La Eve .

Kuehnelt
Devoid Privateering
#3 - 2012-10-30 21:05:44 UTC
Deen Wispa wrote:
TL:DR. I HATE HANS !


No. 'tis

TL;DR: I hate Eszur

ASIDE: I hate Hans
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2012-10-30 21:14:33 UTC
Deen Wispa wrote:
TL:DR. I HATE HANS !
Are you his White Knight? :)

The warzone geography is borked. Hans had an opportunity to bring the issue to public discussion, but chose not too. CCP was willing to look at the geography, invest resources into "fixing" the problems. Even though Hans knew there were problems with the map, he chose to pretend there were no problems until the Amarr came to him specifically on the issue. That's just bad representation.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#5 - 2012-10-30 21:17:24 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
I don't know if this is just me... but whenever I read something written by Poetic I can't help but hear an uptight, shrill little girl who has been starved of attention.

Instead of complaining about the war zone, try taking it by using that 20+ man Blackbird and Griffin Fweddit fleet (instead of spamming local).
Deen Wispa
The Mjolnir Bloc
Shadow Cartel
#6 - 2012-10-30 21:21:52 UTC
No. I'm just a white hat wizard who fights the onslaught of my enemy who tend to be black hat; Caldari.

Trolling aside, you would gain more credibility if your blog entries didn't contain so much vitriol towards Hans or Susan. If you want to write with credibility, then do so but avoid the constant rhetoric that only results in polarizing both sides. You have solid creative writing skills but you waste so much of it with this passive aggressive anger you have towards two people who once took you in when you were just a pvp noob.

PS- You need to change your tagline. You're back in Amarr militia....again

High Five. Yeah! C'est La Eve .

Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2012-10-30 21:29:21 UTC
Deen Wispa wrote:
Trolling aside, you would gain more credibility if your blog entries didn't contain so much vitriol towards Hans or Susan. If you want to write with credibility, then do so but avoid the constant rhetoric that only results in polarizing both sides. You have solid creative writing skills but you waste so much of it with this passive aggressive anger you have towards two people who once took you in when you were just a pvp noob.
Susan? I don't talk about her that often. I mostly just mock her, because it's fun. (She had nothing to do with my joining AUTOZ.)

Hans. He's failing as an FW representative. Plain and simple. He works hard. No doubt. But only on issues he cherry-picks. And often on the wrong fights. Dude is more politician than advocate.

But I don't hate Hans. Mostly disappointed. And wishing we had a representative with more backbone.
Deen Wispa
The Mjolnir Bloc
Shadow Cartel
#8 - 2012-10-30 21:35:28 UTC
Do you intend to run for CSM 8?

High Five. Yeah! C'est La Eve .

Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2012-10-30 21:43:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Poetic Stanziel
Deen Wispa wrote:
Do you intend to run for CSM 8?
I doubt it.

The current plan is to throw up another viable FW candidate, if Hans decides to run again. Split the vote. The point to keep Hans out of CSM8, if possible. There'll be no FW focus next year anyhow, so no real need to have Hans representing anything.

My hope is that Goonswarm takes the chair next year, returning backbone to the CSM. It is in zero supply this year.

Anyhow, this is an Amarr/Minnie warzone discussion. And you're Gallente.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
It Burns When I'm PvPing
#10 - 2012-10-30 22:09:56 UTC
Isn't minmatar going to get a sizable advantage due to having more temperate planets in their war zone?

If not then I don't really mind the map too much. Give us way to avoid the lame minmatar gate camp in eszure and the problem is solved.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

kraiklyn Asatru
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2012-10-30 22:29:46 UTC
Were you always like this Poetic??


Also see Pinky Feldmans suggestions.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
It Burns When I'm PvPing
#12 - 2012-10-31 00:20:44 UTC
Deen Wispa wrote:
No. I'm just a white hat wizard who fights the onslaught of my enemy who tend to be black hat; Caldari.

Trolling aside, you would gain more credibility if your blog entries didn't contain so much vitriol towards Hans or Susan. If you want to write with credibility, then do so but avoid the constant rhetoric that only results in polarizing both sides. You have solid creative writing skills but you waste so much of it with this passive aggressive anger you have towards two people who once took you in when you were just a pvp noob.

PS- You need to change your tagline. You're back in Amarr militia....again



Susan pretty much admits she is biased.

The problem is hans and her are like a package deal. He is oflten on her blog defending her and taking afront at any amarr who might like to explain how bad these ideas are from the losing sides perspective. Its just been the course. It is not surprising to me that Hans managed to get lp for defensive plexing accomplished early. Making sure minmatar were not "punished" for winning was a top priority for hans and Susan.

He trys to deny the connection but go ahead and read her blogs. Especially the comments where her ideas get shot down as too slanted for the winning side but hans keeps defending her.

Don't get me wrong I like Hans. I will probably vote for him again since he is the only one on csm that even has a remote clue about fw. But he has been almost constantly siding with Susan and at odds with amarr.

This is why we now have a system that helps the winning side solidify their advantage even thogh there was never any substantial support for these ideas on the forums.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Deen Wispa
The Mjolnir Bloc
Shadow Cartel
#13 - 2012-10-31 00:34:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Deen Wispa
Why do you guys feel like you're still losing? You have T2 now and you own about 20+ systems. These are systems that are stable and that allows you guys to move into w/o fear of being farmed to death. I know it's not everything but I sure don't think you guys are 'losing'.

I would like to see you guys get as many systems as we do up here in Gal/Cal space. But I don't see that happening so yes, CCP should break those chokepoints up.

Susan only trolls because she knows she can rile you guys up. And it works. And she continues to laugh at you guys while you continue to read her blogs thus continuing the cycle.

High Five. Yeah! C'est La Eve .

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
It Burns When I'm PvPing
#14 - 2012-10-31 01:22:22 UTC
Deen Wispa wrote:
Why do you guys feel like you're still losing? You have T2 now and you own about 20+ systems. These are systems that are stable and that allows you guys to move into w/o fear of being farmed to death. I know it's not everything but I sure don't think you guys are 'losing'..


There are seventy systems in play in our war. 20 systems out of 70 is losing. We get about half the lp the minmatar do for the exact same things.

Minmatar has been able to cash out all their lp at tier 5. They are trillions ahead of the amarr. Now amarr just had the lp they all worked for and for the most part never cashed out devalued big time.

How many are in amarr and how many are in minmatar. Because hans took Susans advice and adopted a system that has absolutely not economic balance how is that going to change?

Deen Wispa wrote:

Susan only trolls because she knows she can rile you guys up. And it works. And she continues to laugh at you guys while you continue to read her blogs thus continuing the cycle.


No one in amarr cares about susan. The problem is its clear Hans doesn't realize she is trolling when she writes things like minmatar are being punished for winning and minmatar are trying to give away systems so we need lp for defensive plexing.

And lo and behold in ccps dev blog they claim that is some sort of big concern and they immediately start awarding lp for defensive plexing which will just cement the winner's position.

To the extent anyone flipped a systems so they coudl farm it again was the result of plexing being farmville and was no reason to create a snowball effect where the winners cement their lead.

This was all explained to hans yet he took Susan's blog posts, apparently verbatim, to ccp and ccp acted on them.

So now instead of a faction war that involves pvp we still have occupancy involving pve. Its just that there is absolutely no economic incentive to join the losing side. No balance at all. Really dumb.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Rengerel en Distel
#15 - 2012-10-31 03:06:09 UTC
I still say they should combine the miltias and make one warzone. Now the warzone is 171 systems or whatever. CalAmarri vs Mingallentar.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.

Vordak Kallager
New Order Outreach Division
CODE.
#16 - 2012-10-31 03:24:38 UTC
If you read the minutes of the last summit, Hans acknowledges the problem of the warzone geography (for both warzones) but recommends problems such as FWarmville, NPC balancing, Tier balancing and etc. are more urgently needed than to remodel the FW map(s). As far as I can tell, everyone has agreed that the geography is bad; everyone has also agreed that the mess of Inferno needs to be patched up and that the geography is something that, while problematic, is something everyone has been dealing with and can continue to deal with as long as the other bullshit gets fixed up. Most of that bullshit is getting fixed up through Fast Forward and Retribution.

Hans - damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. There is just no winning with you.

Also, Hans and Susan are not joined at the hip and to imply that they are is quite disingenuous. A lot of the things CCP are doing are healthy for the entirety of FW and are not biased towards one faction of the other. The only reason people like to say that CCP is helping the Minmatar is because we took advantage of the announcements pre-Inferno and used our superior coordination, morale and numbers to make sure we would have the advantage going into Inferno. If you want to be mad at us for using publicly available information to coordinate and plan our victory and domination of the SovWar, well, so be it.

Sa souvraya niende misain ye.

Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#17 - 2012-10-31 03:57:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Hans Jagerblitzen
This would make a great story, if it weren't for the fact that I've already discussed map changes with Amarr players and made recommendations to CCP. Poe's once again several months late to the party and really testing the boundaries with what players will believe without bothering to fact check any of his bullshit.

As I mentioned in the recording Poe is using as "evidence", Pinky Feldman gave me these maps when we discussed this back in September:

http://i.imgur.com/aM9Ir.jpg

Pinky and I talked not only about specific map changes, but also about my interest in CCP hosting a Live Event to kickoff the opening of these gates. Pinky sent his maps to CCP Fozzie (and I followed up with Fozzie on Skype to be sure he had them), Fozzie liked what he saw but cautioned that this would likely have to come in a 1.1 or 1.2 release. It's been clear from the beginning that CCP is interested in opening up the map between the Amarr and Minmatar territories, and they have all the resources they need from players to design these changes.

Pinky however, was not the first to bring up the map - other Amarrians had also contacted me with information that I've passed on to CCP.

I'll be honest here - I did make one mistake in my Fweddit talk. I said that I didn't have an answer to give to CCP at the summit when they asked about the changing the map. This is true, I didn't go into the summit with map changes on my agenda - because I was preoccupied with addressing the concerns that I was hearing about on a daily basis at the time. My inaccuracy though in talking to Fweddit was that I did actually have information about specific map changes at the time of the summit - I ran a quick forum search and it turns out that I had already given them this information before the summit even took place.

Bottom line is, the issue was never ignored, and in fact the need to circumvent the Hof pipe was a suggestion I forwarded to the developers in April. It's been discussed since than, CCP has what they need to work on this, and has for some time. The only reason it's not on the list for Retribution is a shortage of resources, not in CCP's lack of information or unwillingness to address this. This is by far the most ridiculously dishonest post Poetic has made to date.

Here is the copypasta from the internal CCP forums (which doesn't break NDA since its my own words):

#57 Posted: 2012.04.20 19:39 | Report | Edited by: Hans Jagerblitzen
I also wanted to link to this post, a set of excellent concerns from the community regarding docking rights, and the territory map. I think their request for knowing about this early enough to move everything they own around is a fair one and should be clarified publicly as soon as the matter is decided upon.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1162642#post1162642

Cearain wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Uppsy Daisy wrote:
On the subject of maps, you really should get CCP thinking about the Amarr-Minmatar system layout Hans.

There are too many chokepoints at the moment!

Some of the chokepoint gates are regional gates, and very hard to camp successfully; these ones don't need changing.

e.g. Kourmonen - Auga, Vard - Ezzara, Hofjaldgund - Dal,

However, there are some other non-regional gates that totally dictate movement across the whole zone.

Hofjaldgund - Eszur and Frerstorn - Ardar are the main cuplrits.

On this point I think its pretty clear that the minmatar will have some advantage if Docking rights are really taken away if a system is occupied by the enemy.

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Amarr_VS_Minmatar#sec

Minmatar will always have 2 key staging points that Amarr will never be able to do anything about. Specifically Egghelende which means minmatar will alway be past the hofjalgund choke point. And Gratesier which means they will always be able to base right in our back yard.

Unless CCP intended to specifically give minmatar an advantage these maps were not designed with the idea that you would entirely lose docking rights if a system was taken.

Edit: Actually I guess its not so bad since we have akkio in Minmatar's back yard. But all the same It would be more even if we had a choke point past the hofjalgund chokepoint or at least one into that dal-vard-siseide cluster.


When I made this post I was thinking that we would not be able to dock in systems controled by the other race that were not part of the faction war front. I think I was wrong on this but it would be nice to know for sure.

For example will an amarr fw pilot be able to dock in Rens? Dodixie? Egghelende (lows sec system that is part of gallente space and not in either faction war front)? Gultratren (low sec minmatar system not part of fw space.)

I assume Amarr will not be able to dock anywhere caldari cant dock within gallente amarr faction war space.

If this change is going through I have lots of stuff to move so if ccp could let us know it would be nice.

Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Vordak Kallager
New Order Outreach Division
CODE.
#18 - 2012-10-31 04:28:06 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
This would make a great story, if it weren't for the fact that I've already discussed map changes with Amarr players and made recommendations to CCP. Poe's once again several months late to the party and really testing the boundaries with what players will believe without bothering to fact check any of his bullshit.

As I mentioned in the recording Poe is using as "evidence", Pinky Feldman gave me these maps when we discussed this back in September:

http://i.imgur.com/aM9Ir.jpg

Pinky and I talked not only about specific map changes, but also about my interest in CCP hosting a Live Event to kickoff the opening of these gates. Pinky sent his maps to CCP Fozzie (and I followed up with Fozzie on Skype to be sure he had them), Fozzie liked what he saw but cautioned that this would likely have to come in a 1.1 or 1.2 release. It's been clear from the beginning that CCP is interested in opening up the map between the Amarr and Minmatar territories, and they have all the resources they need from players to design these changes.

Pinky however, was not the first to bring up the map - other Amarrians had also contacted me with information that I've passed on to CCP.

I'll be honest here - I did make one mistake in my Fweddit talk. I said that I didn't have an answer to give to CCP at the summit when they asked about the changing the map. This is true, I didn't go into the summit with map changes on my agenda - because I was preoccupied with addressing the concerns that I was hearing about on a daily basis at the time. My inaccuracy though in talking to Fweddit was that I did actually have information about specific map changes at the time of the summit - I ran a quick forum search and it turns out that I had already given them this information before the summit even took place.

Bottom line is, the issue was never ignored, and in fact the need to circumvent the Hof pipe was a suggestion I forwarded to the developers in April. It's been discussed since than, CCP has what they need to work on this, and has for some time. The only reason it's not on the list for Retribution is a shortage of resources, not in CCP's lack of information or unwillingness to address this. This is by far the most ridiculously dishonest post Poetic has made to date.

Here is the copypasta from the internal CCP forums (which doesn't break NDA since its my own words):

#57 Posted: 2012.04.20 19:39 | Report | Edited by: Hans Jagerblitzen
I also wanted to link to this post, a set of excellent concerns from the community regarding docking rights, and the territory map. I think their request for knowing about this early enough to move everything they own around is a fair one and should be clarified publicly as soon as the matter is decided upon.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1162642#post1162642

Cearain wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Uppsy Daisy wrote:
On the subject of maps, you really should get CCP thinking about the Amarr-Minmatar system layout Hans.

There are too many chokepoints at the moment!

Some of the chokepoint gates are regional gates, and very hard to camp successfully; these ones don't need changing.

e.g. Kourmonen - Auga, Vard - Ezzara, Hofjaldgund - Dal,

However, there are some other non-regional gates that totally dictate movement across the whole zone.

Hofjaldgund - Eszur and Frerstorn - Ardar are the main cuplrits.

On this point I think its pretty clear that the minmatar will have some advantage if Docking rights are really taken away if a system is occupied by the enemy.

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Amarr_VS_Minmatar#sec

Minmatar will always have 2 key staging points that Amarr will never be able to do anything about. Specifically Egghelende which means minmatar will alway be past the hofjalgund choke point. And Gratesier which means they will always be able to base right in our back yard.

Unless CCP intended to specifically give minmatar an advantage these maps were not designed with the idea that you would entirely lose docking rights if a system was taken.

Edit: Actually I guess its not so bad since we have akkio in Minmatar's back yard. But all the same It would be more even if we had a choke point past the hofjalgund chokepoint or at least one into that dal-vard-siseide cluster.


When I made this post I was thinking that we would not be able to dock in systems controled by the other race that were not part of the faction war front. I think I was wrong on this but it would be nice to know for sure.

For example will an amarr fw pilot be able to dock in Rens? Dodixie? Egghelende (lows sec system that is part of gallente space and not in either faction war front)? Gultratren (low sec minmatar system not part of fw space.)

I assume Amarr will not be able to dock anywhere caldari cant dock within gallente amarr faction war space.

If this change is going through I have lots of stuff to move so if ccp could let us know it would be nice.

Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.


/thread

Sa souvraya niende misain ye.

Susan Black
Ice Fire Warriors
#19 - 2012-10-31 04:54:40 UTC
do you live under a rock?

www.gamerchick.net @gamerchick42

Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2012-10-31 04:58:32 UTC
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
I still say they should combine the miltias and make one warzone. Now the warzone is 171 systems or whatever. CalAmarri vs Mingallentar.

Calmari vs. Galmatar.
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