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The Hypocrisy of High Sec

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Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#101 - 2012-10-31 02:55:45 UTC
Silk daShocka wrote:
I'd love to see an example of US company that was building something in Iraq while it was extremely risky to do so, instead of tapping into the Asian market of cheap labour.

Germany built what it needed where it lived, it didn't go to china to buy its tanks etc, during WW2. Same with Russia. Real world analogies are bad, stop using them.

Remiel Pollard wrote:
If I'm living in a city, like Brisbane in Australia, and I decide to move to a shack in the desert.... don't you think I'm going to CHECK what sort of supplies I'm going to have out there? Where will I get my water? Food? Internet? I have to make sure I'm moving somewhere where I can be sure I have all my supplies ready to go.

Sigh, real life analogies. They always suck.

If we must do the real life bullshit, let's do it properly. Let's assume you're living in a city. Would you want a steel factory as your neighbour? An electricity plant? A coal mine? A hydroelectric dam? A pigfarm? No, chances are you'd want that away from where you live, and you'd just like the finished product to appear in a store near you.

Remiel Pollard wrote:
But the way I see it, living in nul is not supposed to be EASY, it's supposed to be a challenge, just like moving away from a big city to live in the middle of the desert.

Nullsec isn't supposed to be just about PVP, building supercaps and mining some moons, but that's what nullsec is all about now, for a myriad of reasons.

L4s make ratting in nullsec dumb, lack of manufacturing capacity in nullsec makes trying to build things there dumb, lack of mineral demand makes mining there dumb, hisec scordite etc makes mining in nullsec dumb, the low cost of manufacturing in hisec makes using a POS in nullsec dumb (since you have to fly in minerals and fuel etc, do the manufacturing, then haul it to where you can sell it, which still costs more than just buying it in jita/building it yourself and shipping it out via JFs, etc etc etc.

What needs to happen is
1) Industrial capacity in null has to be increased dramatically
2) manufacturing costs needs to be increased in hisec, when I can build a maelstrom for less than 2k isk in manufacturing costs, it's too cheap.
3) refining of compressed ore needs to be reduced in efficiency, to curb unnecessary importation into hisec of compressed ore, if someone wants to export minerals from nullsec they should refine it somewhere nullsec alliances can tax it, and today this is essentially impossible because compressing and shipping to hisec is more profitable
4) Manufacturing needs to be less efficient in hisec, to curb the incessant "build ammo/guns in hisec, export to nullsec, refine, build" routine; we want there to be a reason to be a miner in nullsec instead of in hisec, and if it's cheaper/more convenient to just import guns/ammo, nobody'll have a demand for actual miners to fill.

I'd go down the checklist and implement the changes sequentially until nullsec started actually populating with more than just tumbleweed on a regular basis, I don't really see a point in futzing about with ME rates in nullsec etc, or mining yield, at least not to start with.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#102 - 2012-10-31 02:59:46 UTC
Touval Lysander wrote:
They can readily build the stuff in highsec. It's 20 seconds to JF back to 0.0. The problem is they want their indy AND PvP all in one handy location. They want to EXPORT to highsec so they can **** it over even more. That's it. That's the change that we all have to suffer for.

So, the previous thread you were bitching about how we didn't want to build in nullsec because we were lazy, and now we want to build things in one handy location because we're lazy.

It's almost as if you're taking a look at what the arguments are, and argue the exact opposite.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Silk daShocka
Greasy Hair Club
#103 - 2012-10-31 03:00:02 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Silk daShocka wrote:
I'd love to see an example of US company that was building something in Iraq while it was extremely risky to do so, instead of tapping into the Asian market of cheap labour.

Germany built what it needed where it lived, it didn't go to china to buy its tanks etc, during WW2. Same with Russia. Real world analogies are bad, stop using them.


Your argument was bad, stop posting.
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#104 - 2012-10-31 03:01:03 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

...that does seem rather powerblock friendly though as the only entities which can readily use secure markets without tax penalties are those with some reasonable control of the surrounding space. Lesser entities without secure markets and those needing materials lacking in their respective regions would find themselves potentially at a further disadvantage compared to powerful entities than already is the case.

THIS man get's it.

0.0 CFC wants to EXPORT to highsec so we can all bend over and take it at yet ANOTHER level.

How about we all agree to it when CCP completely redistribute tech moons right across 0.0 and include them in wormholes and in lowsec. Hey and highsec! Then the fights will be everywhere!! Idea

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#105 - 2012-10-31 03:09:50 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Touval Lysander wrote:
They can readily build the stuff in highsec. It's 20 seconds to JF back to 0.0. The problem is they want their indy AND PvP all in one handy location. They want to EXPORT to highsec so they can **** it over even more. That's it. That's the change that we all have to suffer for.

So, the previous thread you were bitching about how we didn't want to build in nullsec because we were lazy, and now we want to build things in one handy location because we're lazy.

It's almost as if you're taking a look at what the arguments are, and argue the exact opposite.

Stop being a liar Zim.

I said you were lazy because you won't COMPETE against your OWN GUYS undercutting you in VFK. I also said that even if we closed highsec and gave you everything YOU still would not be able to compete because of how your friend, your corpmate, your ally, does his sums.

The competition is WITHIN. YOU have the exact same tools, the exact same space, the exact same methods to compete.

You WON'T. For you, nothing will work because of your personal mindset. It's NOT the game at fault.

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#106 - 2012-10-31 03:27:57 UTC
Touval Lysander wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Touval Lysander wrote:
They can readily build the stuff in highsec. It's 20 seconds to JF back to 0.0. The problem is they want their indy AND PvP all in one handy location. They want to EXPORT to highsec so they can **** it over even more. That's it. That's the change that we all have to suffer for.

So, the previous thread you were bitching about how we didn't want to build in nullsec because we were lazy, and now we want to build things in one handy location because we're lazy.

It's almost as if you're taking a look at what the arguments are, and argue the exact opposite.

Stop being a liar Zim.

I said you were lazy because you won't COMPETE against your OWN GUYS undercutting you in VFK. I also said that even if we closed highsec and gave you everything YOU still would not be able to compete because of how your friend, your corpmate, your ally, does his sums.

The competition is WITHIN. YOU have the exact same tools, the exact same space, the exact same methods to compete.

You WON'T. For you, nothing will work because of your personal mindset. It's NOT the game at fault.

Touval,

If I want to compete in null, I HAVE to import. I can't compete with high sec imports, not because I'm lazy, or because I don't like copettiion, it's because I can't compete with the prices. When I build in null and my final price with no mark up is higher than what you can buy for in jita, that's not competition, that's import the item or build it and never sell.

When I started my T2 production and calculated the final cost of my goods, keep in mind I HAVE to import everyting but the PI stuff in order to build a T2 item, my cost was higher than people charge in null sec.

I can import T2 items, paying someone to deliver it BTW, and sell it for less than I can build it.

Not everything mind you, but enough stuff that I'm rather limitted on what I can build in null.
Keep in mind, minerals cost me less, and it still costs me more than they're charging in high sec for the same items.


I agree with Zim.
While I do advocate reducing mineral output in high sec to increase mineral costs there, I think what he suggested should be the first step.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#107 - 2012-10-31 03:31:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord Zim
Touval Lysander wrote:
I said you were lazy because you won't COMPETE against your OWN GUYS undercutting you in VFK. I also said that even if we closed highsec and gave you everything YOU still would not be able to compete because of how your friend, your corpmate, your ally, does his sums.

Previous thread: "hurr you're lazy because you don't want to spend a large portion of your time mining ice to enable yourself to make fuel blocks to fuel your own POS, then spend a large portion of your time mining ore to enable yourself to build things. Your time is free, all mineral/ice you mine is free, opportunity costs don't exist, there's no risk of losing your mining ship, so all profits you get from selling the ships you make in nullsec are pure profit."

This thread: "hurr they're lazy and want to do everything in nullsec, and they want to RUIN HISEC TOO!".

Yeah, you're certainly not looking at whatever it is I'm arguing, and taking the opposite stance. Roll

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#108 - 2012-10-31 03:40:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Natsett Amuinn
Silk daShocka wrote:


I probably should have stated my question alittle more clearly.

What I meant by building something was in teh nature of manufacturing something. I wasn't trying to deny the fact that actual buildings and other infrastructure was being built to provide services. I was more or less pointing out that a company like general dynamics wouldn't be very interested in setting up a factory in Iraq.

I get that, but that isn't a result of risk.


Do you know that China intentionaly keeps their currency from going up so that they're more desireable for manufacturing? If tomorrow China's currency double in value, they're economy would collapse.

It's not as simple as "beause it's cheaper" or because it's "safer". There's all kinds of crazy **** that countries, including the US, does to make manufacturing in one country more worthwhile than another; revolving entirely around gold, fiat currency, and bonds.

On the flip side, the US keeps it's currencies value high so that we're more desireable to trade with. At least for until the fiat experiment we've been running finally collapses the dollar and damn near every countries goes straigh to economic hell.


Risk has little to do with it. It's a convoluted mess of fiat currency and intent that determines were things get manufactured.


High sec is like China, everything is being built and exported from there. Null is like the US, everyones buying imported goods and unemployment keeps going up. The workers are mad now, and we want work.

CCP is the federal reserve, and we're in effect asking them to stop inflating the dollar, get the **** off fiat currency, put the dollar back on the gold standard, and let us build in our own nation.

That's real world economic examples that actually pertain to EVE.
BoSau Hotim
Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated
#109 - 2012-10-31 03:42:27 UTC
Geligdio Khan wrote:
So could this be achieved in practice? I think two small changes would accomplish it very easily. The current distribution of minerals in the game is (ignoring anomalies and wormholes);

High Sec, Tritanium, Pyerite, Mexallon, Isogen, Nocxium

Low Sec, the above plus Zydrine (no wonder no one goes there)

Null Sec, the above plus Megacyte and Morphite.

I propose changing this to

High Sec, Tritanium

Low Sec, Tritanium, Pyerite, Mexallon, Isogen, Nocxium

Null Sec, Tritanium, Pyerite, Zydrine, Megacyte, Morphite.

Notice under this system there are minerals which are only available in low, so miners will have to go there.

Moreover I propose high sec manufacturing is altered from 1000 ISK install charge, 333 Isk per hour, to 10,000 ISK install charge and 5,000 ISK per hour.

And finally I propose the only missions available in High Sec should be of levels 1 and 2. If you can afford a faction battleship you can afford to fly in Low and Null in a cruiser without trouble.

These changes would be really simple to implement and it would mean you can still do everything in high sec you can do now, you can mine and manufacture there to your heart’s content. But it wouldn’t be very profitable, so you would naturally want to leave and set up in low and null. This would balance the game and cause everyone to take risks for their rewards.

TL;DR, Industrialists need people taking risks and getting blown up to exist, it is not right that they should not take risks themselves but should profit from the risks of others.



double post? I think i've seen this from you before....

Everyone who mines in high sec is already taking risks... they do get blown up... where do you live in Eve that you do not know this?????


I'm not a carebear... I'm a SPACE BARBIE!  Now... where's Ken?
Herr Hammer Draken
#110 - 2012-10-31 05:41:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Herr Hammer Draken
Geligdio Khan wrote:
A lot of players who live exclusively in high sec like to say “stop pushing us around, we don’t want to play the game like you do, stop telling us what to do and leave us alone. We don’t tell you how to play so you can’t tell us how to play”.

I think this is not a fair argument.

Consider a situation where all PVPers in the game agreed to fight each other until one entered structure, at that point a killmail would be generated and the loser, who had entered structure, would be obliged to return to a station and not to use that ship again for 24 hours.

Under this arrangement PVP would continue but industrial activity, in all but ammo manufacturing, would cease to exist. All pilots would buy one or two copies of each ship in the game and would not need to buy ships again. It would be a PVP paradise, with no need to grind money to pay for ships you could fight and fight forever.

Now obviously nobody wants this but it illustrates the point, all industrial activity in EVE is built on risk. It is founded on people taking a risk, screwing up and getting blown up. This creates the opportunity to build a new ship. It is very rare people undock wanting to get blown up and when they do get blown up it is because they were taking a risk to achieve something they want and it went wrong.

Of course there is the expansion of the subscriber base, when new players want new ships, but expansion also creates new industrialists so overall it’s effect is small.

So this means if you want to mine or make ships or trade what you are doing is profiting off someone who took a risk and got blown up and now has to replace their ship. So saying you want to do any of these things but not have anything to do with those nasty PVPers is completely hypocritical. Every industrial activity relies on PVPers, you must interact with them to be an industrialist, so you can’t say “leave us alone” because if they did no industrialist would have anything to do.

So saying, “I want to be safe in high sec and just to be an industrialist” is inherently creating a two tier system, where the PVPers take all the risk and then industrialists get all the rewards. It’s unbalanced. It’s like PVPers asking for ships that respawn, it just distorts the game in the favour of one specific group.

Industrialists who seek great rewards should have to take great risks to get them. This feeds the system with risk and allows those rewards to be generated. It is fair, everyone in the game takes risks to get rewards.

I don’t think anyone should be allowed to play a communal game and get rewards without risk while others take extra risks to compensate. The risk of mining and manufacturing and trading in high sec is too low, it is very close to zero, yet the rewards are high. This is unacceptable.

High sec needs to be balanced. If you want to be safe you must put up with being poor, if you want to be rich you should take risks.

So no wonder people say “leave us alone, we like it as it is”.


Except that you are not prevented from playing in high sec. So it is a fair argument. From CCP's point of veiw as long as we have players that are spread around in eve at what ever rate CCP considers is right then the game is working fine. Players upset at other players is good for creating wars and fighting which again is good. Don't want everybody to be happy with each other thats bad for the game. Stagnation happens like in null now.

Maybe CCP has to create more strife in null not less. To encourage more wars.

But as long as we have players that prefer null and others that prefer high sec then the game is working. Only stops working when we all become happy campers. Kinda like what is happening to all the alliances in Null now. Or if everybody leaves null.

P.S. You guys want null fixed now that is how you do it leave null until CCP fixes it. If you do not then obviously null is good enough as it is, because you still prefer it over high sec. That is what CCP uses as a yard stick for the game. Where you play tells more than what you complain about. Complaining is good. Means strife is working.

Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet"
Lyrrashae
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#111 - 2012-10-31 06:14:31 UTC
Oh look, it's this thread. Again.

You are so incredibly blinkered OP, it's not even funny. Typical one-dimensional nullseccer thinking. Oh, and as regards post #26 especially, false dichotomy is false.

I was going to explain why, but I'm all too aware that I'll never break through what some call the "NullSec Wall of Carebear" --and make no mistake, sov-dullseccers are among the biggest/most pathetic carebears in EVE-- and I got an early day tomorrow, so I just can't be arsed at present.

4/10.

Thread lacks content. Mods, please lock.

Next!

Ni.
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#112 - 2012-10-31 06:38:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Touval Lysander
Natsett Amuinn wrote:

Touval,

If I want to compete in null, I HAVE to import.

I stopped at the end of that sentence. That is MOSTLY true - I know that.

But ask, who are you competing against? Can I, as some 2 bit, 1 man corp, dock at VFK and sell? Answer NO.

1) So who is? We know it's one of YOUR own guys.
2) Where is he getting HIS stuff from?
3) Why aren't you doing the same thing?

If it's enough of a problem to need highsec nerfed and you're all leaving, why doesn't the alliance just ban importing? Really? That's why I know this is BS. It's EASILY fixed.

But you won't because the mindset is - why should we? And I agree. So just ask to fix 0.0 slots and leave highsec the **** alone. It's CHEAPER to produce there than in highsec. Immediate competition.

A highseccer competes against highseccers EVERY day in EVERY station. And not one of us ***** that we cannot "compete". We just deal with it.

What you WON'T do is buy your stuff in highsec and sell in 0.0. You CAN. You WON'T.

Easier to nerf highsec apparently. A 20 second "flight"....

Just for the record, as an indy guy in 0.0 it was MUCH easier to use Loquitur from FA and just buy my own stuff for ops etc. while I seeded the market with stuff NOT being imported to 9DQ, PXF, 6V all the way back to CR. I made heaps of coin - heaps.

Psst.. We were also EXPORTING.... Freighters go BOTH ways.....

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
KrakizBad
Section 8.
#113 - 2012-10-31 06:42:38 UTC
"ban importing from hisec, that will solve all your problems" durr
TharOkha
0asis Group
#114 - 2012-10-31 06:59:45 UTC  |  Edited by: TharOkha
Geligdio Khan wrote:

TL;DR, Industrialists need people taking risks and getting blown up to exist, it is not right that they should not take risks themselves but should profit from the risks of others.


Industrialists has already risk involved.... financial risks. Rhea manufacturing for example... You could earn 1B from one, but slightly changes in material prices could cost you also 1B and more. pretty high risk if you consider that Rhea manufacturing time is 20d +/- and you need 6-7B isk to build it. You need to think nearly one month ahead. Much more complex than dull obeying commands from your FC. Much more riskier than loosing you ship. When you PvPying you just risk your ship and clone, When you manufacturing or station trading, you risk your whole fortune...

When does null whiners understand that risk =/= exploding ships. Eve is an sandbox, there are many types of risk, many faces of PvP, not just ship vs ship.

Sorry but from this thread all i can see is that null sec players fails to understand what EvE realy means. What is worse is that they realy thinks that they are right and deeply believe in that like some bigot creationists.

Drop your elitist behaviour and try to look at this matter from wider perspective. Idea

CODE. Venture hunt contest in a nutshell
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#115 - 2012-10-31 07:08:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Touval Lysander
KrakizBad wrote:
"ban importing from hisec, that will solve all your problems" durr

Occams Razor.
Quote:
One should proceed to simpler theories until simplicity can be traded for greater explanatory power. The simplest available theory need not be most accurate.


And I have repeatedly said .........UNTIL CCP give more slots which is all you really need. You may have missed that post.

Again. Using Occams Razor. Keep it simple.

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#116 - 2012-10-31 07:22:18 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Andski wrote:
Dar Manic wrote:
Soon Shin wrote:
I find it funny that many 0.0 players dislike the safety of high sec yet when people talk about the safe and easyness of the Intel that local chat provides they get defensive about it. Not to mention the constant whines about afk cloakers.



^^ This ^^ :)


We'll talk about local and all that when the risk/reward of hisec is properly balanced.

No, nerf null first and worry about totally murdering it for the expansion after Retribution.


Goonies tears are a flowin.

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#117 - 2012-10-31 08:07:10 UTC
TharOkha wrote:
Industrialists has already risk involved.... financial risks. Rhea manufacturing for example... You could earn 1B from one, but slightly changes in material prices could cost you also 1B and more. pretty high risk if you consider that Rhea manufacturing time is 20d +/- and you need 6-7B isk to build it. You need to think nearly one month ahead. Much more complex than dull obeying commands from your FC. Much more riskier than loosing you ship. When you PvPying you just risks your ship and clone, When you manufacturing or station trading, you risks your whole fortune...

If you think, even for a second, that I don't know this, then you're sorely mistaken. I know perfectly well that you can lose access to all your wealth, in fact that's a large portion of why I keep laughing at people who keep saying nullsec is so safe.

However, if you're actually going to use a Rhea as an example, then I'm going to just point out that a rhea is more or less the perfect ship to get stuck in a hostile station in, since you can stuff 300-350k m3 in it, undock when it suits you, and jump to a cyno, and there's very little the station's inhabitants can do about it.

TharOkha wrote:
When does null whiners understand that risk =/= exploding ships. Eve is an sandbox, there are many types of risk, many faces of PvP, not just ship vs ship.

I evacuated around 20B in assets through a wormhole to hisec back when NCdot, Raidendot, PL etc tried a headshot of VFK 1.5 years ago. I know perfectly well what it means to have assets potentially trapped somewhere, but I also knew what to do when it looked like the station I'm in might be next on the list of targets. It'd be even easier to get out of there if I'd had a JF.

Hell, I was in Delve when goons were thrown out of there and lost access to all the assets I had stuck in those stations, but I just put in a jumpclone before I left and returned to it once in a while and sold them off slowly but surely. It's not the end of the world. vOv

TharOkha wrote:
Sorry but from this thread all i can see is that null sec players fails to understand what EvE realy means. What is worse is that they realy thinks that they are right and deeply believe in that like some bigot creationists.

Drop your elitist behaviour and try to look at this matter from wider perspective. Idea

You'll notice that what I've been saying hasn't been "stop hisec from doing anything", it has solely been "make nullsec much more competitive against hisec". If I had wanted to be elitist I would've gone with suggestions such as "anything larger than a battlecruiser is illegal to manufacture in hisec", but there's a reason I didn't even try that route: it's unrealistic. My actual suggestion isn't unrealistic, nor is it as dramatic as some people want to make them out to be.

The point of the changes is to enable those who aren't completely risk averse to make more of a profit by putting themselves and their assets at risk, while letting the people who are completely risk averse can keep on doing what they're doing in hisec in perfect safety. Come the 4th of december, and you'll be even more safe than ever before, while reaping exactly the same rewards as before, and not an ounce of excitement in it.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Geligdio Khan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#118 - 2012-10-31 10:21:07 UTC


There are a lot of posts in this thread saying, essentially, that High Sec is civilised and that's why all the industry is there and Null is the bad lands and should just be for PVP.

I think this is the wrong vision of the game. I personally think Null empires should be equal to the great empires of the game (they're a lot cooler as they have been built by the great effort of the players and are not a gift from CCP). They should have vibrant economies, with miners, manufacturers and traders, and a host of PVPers to protect them and conquer new territory.

That is what makes the game awesome, people working together and building something awesome.

Except this vision doesn't come to pass, all the inudstry is in high sec where it receives massive CCP subsidies (free protection, massive number of manufacturing slots, respawning minerals etc) and that kills the Industry that should be in Null, enriching and glorifying the game.

I think people should start in High Sec and then quite quickly want to leave as there is muhc more profit outside. They should want to join a corp and really go and experience the game.

Thanks
TharOkha
0asis Group
#119 - 2012-10-31 11:20:23 UTC  |  Edited by: TharOkha
Geligdio Khan wrote:

They should want to join a corp and really go and experience the game.


Why should anyone want to join a Corp? Why shouldnt anyone be able play solo in a "sea of players"? (For not inteligent ones: They want to interfere with other players but with solo gameplay outside of any orders etc..) Why do you think that I, as a freelance solo player, do not experiencing the game?

Or is this just another "they should play this game my way"?

There are already better rats in null, there are already better l4 missions in low than in high. Problem is with the players. As long as there will be this "gheto-thinking" philosophy that "shoot anything that moves" in low/null, then nobody from solo player hisec comunity will be willing go there.

CODE. Venture hunt contest in a nutshell
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#120 - 2012-10-31 12:28:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
TharOkha wrote:
Geligdio Khan wrote:

They should want to join a corp and really go and experience the game.


Why should anyone want to join a Corp? Why shouldnt anyone be able play solo in a "sea of players"? (For not inteligent ones: They want to interfere with other players but with solo gameplay outside of any orders etc..) Why do you think that I, as a freelance solo player, do not experiencing the game?

Or is this just another "they should play this game my way"?

There are already better rats in null, there are already better l4 missions in low than in high. Problem is with the players. As long as there will be this "gheto-thinking" philosophy that "shoot anything that moves" in low/null, then nobody from solo player hisec comunity will be willing go there.



This post is an excellent example of the "High-Sec mentality". I mean really, it has it all.

-The unwillingness to play a multiplayer game cooperatively like in joining a player corp (notice his phrase " but with solo gameplay outside of any orders"), which sometimes means "taking orders" (or giving orders). CHECK

-The (fallaciously stupid) Accusation that anyone who has any kind of problem with "solo players" in a high connected multiplayer game is just a video game fascist who "wants everyone to play the same way". CHECK

-The "Everyone has it better than us" spiel/lie almost every single High Sec Zealot clings to but is laughably false (sure, there are "better rats and missions" outside high sec, but they are not so much better given the REALITIES of the game, like the fact that people will interrupt your null sec isk making with cheap noob ship cyno cloaky alts, where as in high sec you can just roll on making slightly less isk per hour FOREVER......) CHECK

-And probably best of all, the "more people would leave high sec and go to null/low if people weren't so "ghetto" with all the shooting" claim...... CHECK

That's right folks, Guys like this came to the PVP-centric game but stay in the "safe" space because of......the chance for PVP. But it's the rest of us who are the "problem"..

There are other really dumb things high sec only people believe, but these 4 are really good indicators of WHY lots of us have problems with their way of thinking. People like this just don't really "fit" into the game, not because they aren't doing things exactly the way we are, but because they really want some other "lone wolf" style game and can't find it so they "squat" in EVE just to tell us how WE are somehow doing it wrong....